I suppose. But Hawke and his family could almost have easily been city elves and it would have worked with little alteration. And does the Inquisitor not also have neutral, humorous, and aggressive dialog choices for the most part?
Aside from the nobility thing, I can see things getting really complicated with the family and the different lines they'd get. Plus, did Cailan have elves in his army? Carver and warrior/rogue Hawke were part of it at Ostagar.
I seem to remember a poster putting up a picture of some elven soldiers in armor at the camp in Ostagar in the Elf support thread or something.
I think the fan reception of DA: 2 is evidence enough that the majority of players disagree with you.
I seem to remember a poster putting up a picture of some elven soldiers in armor at the camp in Ostagar in the Elf support thread or something.
Really? I've gone through Ostagar many times, and the only elf I can remember is that one redheaded guy that was running back and forth, and I lied to to get the sword. The main camp where all the soldiers were was off limits so we couldn't see the bulk of Cailan's forces, and as far as I can tell, all of the other NPC's standing around in that open area were human.
And does the Inquisitor not also have neutral, humorous, and aggressive dialog choices for the most part?
Yes but the way they're acted is quite bland compared to Hawke and I really don't think the humorous options for the inquisitor are nearly as funny as Hawke's.
Yes but the way they're acted is quite bland compared to Hawke and I really don't think the humorous options for the inquisitor are nearly as funny as Hawke's.
Even if they weren't performed and written the same way, they were still designed the same way: with a neutral, humorous, and aggressive delivery option.
DA4 needs to let the player create his own character. Not create one for him and force the player to play a set character as a good guy.
Hawke seems more defined to me because we know more about his background and because those things that we know about his background are the same for every Hawke you can make. Every Hawke grows up on the move with both parents and two siblings. They all live in Fereldan until the Blight, at which time they flee with all of their living family. They always start out closer with Bethany than with Carver. Warrior and Rogue Hawkes always go off to fight for Ferelden. Every Hawke is unwilling to leave Kirkwall once you get there and every Hawke is intent on keeping himself or Bethany out of the Circle. Many (if not all) of these things are demonstrated throughout the game and actually must be the way they are for the story to make sense.
The Inquisitor's background has far fewer defined details. For a human mage, for instance, all we know is that they're a Trevelyan, they're the youngest child, and they're the only one in their immediate family that was in the Circle. Things such as their relationship with their family, their attitudes towards the Circle, and the specifics about their experiences growing up are all left to the player to decide and are not a part of every Inquisitor. Further, the story does not rely on the Inquisitor being from the Circle or from a Dalish tribe or whatever in order for the plot to make sense.
That's how I see it anyway. There is more about Hawke that cannot be changed from playthrough to playthrough than there is with any given Inquisitor.
Even if they weren't performed and written the same way, they were still designed the same way: with a neutral, humorous, and aggressive delivery option.
Perhaps, but the introduction of multiple playable races necessitated race-specific responses, too. There is really only so many branches a dialogue can have. If you have distinct tones *and* want race specific options, you're up to 12 branches any time a choice is offered, and that doesn't even include class- or perk-related branches... or "investigate".
Besides, I recall a statement that said that they were deliberately writing the various "tone" responses as more neutral because too many people were complaining that their Hawkes sounded like they suffered from multiple personality disorder.
All this complaining about perceived faults, and I have yet to see anybody mention the "emote" tree.
I loved Hawke. I really did. He was my favorite of the three DA protagonists by a wide margin... but I hated how he was sometimes forced to make an emotional response that may or may not have been appropriate. For example, at the end of All that Remains, all of Hawke's responses were expressions of abject grief. My Hawke had a complicated relationship with Leandra. Yes, the whole thing was understandably distressing, but if I couldn't have the ability to express guilt over those conflicted emotions, I would have preferred the opportunity to act stoic. It would have allowed me to headcanon that it was all just so overwhelming that he shut down until he could process his grief... and his guilt over the relief he felt. But no, it was not meant to be. (Yeah, I know that Hawke can be female, too, and I intend no disrespect by using the masculine pronoun. I use it only because my favorite Hawke was a dude.)
I loved that in DAI, we could pick whether we wanted to fall apart in grief or be stoic or whatever. It was a vast improvement.
Even if they weren't performed and written the same way, they were still designed the same way: with a neutral, humorous, and aggressive delivery option.
That was true for DA:O, more or less. Or at least that was the intention.
xenoblade chronicles x has a silent protagonist. so there not really dead. but I agree with about everything else
xenoblade chronicles x has a silent protagonist. so there not really dead. but I agree with about everything else
JRPGs are somewhat different, especially if they are still classic turn-based experiences like those from the 90s. CRPGs, on the other hand, have really outgrown that archetype. It can work for indie projects, but I don't really see it being feasible on a AAA scale anymore.
Agreed. I know many are bashing BioWare for making the new protagonist in the next Mass Effect another N7 human operative, but it makes sense. Humans are more relatable. It's easier to make a compelling story around that experience rather than a made up alien race. It's also easier to do romance scenes, build relationships, and make it more organic and compelling. Not to mention, there is no way to possibly focus a story in Mass Effect if you are allowed to choose different races from different planets as a starting point. Sure, you lose out on variety and won't be able to play as a Turian, Quarian, etc., but that's why ME3 MP exists for those needs...
Really? That definitely reinforces my decision to not look into or buy ME4. 
Really? That definitely reinforces my decision to not look into or buy ME4.
Just look at all the footage and screenshots of the new protagonist. Everything shown is him/her being in N7 armor and BioWare has stated he/she is "somehow related to N7." To be quite honest, I'm actually all for this as N7 was never adequately explained nor elaborated on in Mass Effect. Once Shepard became a Spectre, being N7 was relatively minor and had little impact. It's also somewhat odd the most iconic emblem in Mass Effect has such little meaning in the actual games.
The biggest drop of the ball I can think of is the Temple of Mythal when you're an elf.
Not sure what you mean by this, unless you're referring to not being able to read the ancient Elvish? I really liked the argument with Morrigan over the Well, as I played my Inquisitor as very prideful, or at least looking up to, her heritage as an elf, and thus using the argument that by being an elf it's more her right than Morrigan's.
I prefer custom shaped characters (phisically, mentally and by background) than a pre-made one like Hawke or as Shepard partly is.
(to MindWeb) I think Phoe77 might be referring to the infamous dialogue bit in the Temple of Mythal in which a Dalish Inquisitor can ask Morrigan who Mythal is. This can be especially puzzling as an Inquisitor can potentially have the vallaslin of Mythal.
What makes this odd as well is that is that the Inquisitor can have Dalish-specific dialogue, I believe, in the Temple including the Well of Sorrow which makes the line about Mythal stand out even more. Personally, I think it might be an oversight and they may have either forgotten to re-phrase that question for elven Inquisitors or that bit of dialogue simply failed to trigger properly.
Guest_Faerunner_*
did Cailan have elves in his army? Carver and warrior/rogue Hawke were part of it at Ostagar.
Yes, there were elves at Ostagar. They just worked as laborers, messengers, etc. The devs could just change the throwaway line from "Carver and/or Hawke fought as soldiers, then escaped Ostagar when the tide turned" to "the whole elven family worked as laborers, then escaped Ostagar when the tide turned." Boom, problem solved.
Aside from the nobility thing, I can see things getting really complicated with the family and the different lines they'd get.
I don't see it being that complicated. With a few simple dialogue re-writes, the "nobility thing" wouldn't be too much of a loss.
The Hawkes wanted to get into the Kirkwall because Mom is from the Amell Estate; a city elf family could want to get in because Mom has family in the Alienage. The Hawkes get turned away at the gate because the Amell name has lost its value; the elven family could get turned away because they're elves. The guard then gives Hawke an audience with family inside because Hawke helped settle a fight that other refugees start; a city elf could get the same thing. The Hawkes get into the city through Uncle's connections to a thief or mercenary gang; a city elf family could ALSO have a family member broker connections with the same thief or mercenary gang. The Hawkes live in Lowtown through Act 1; the city elf family could live in the Alienage through Act 1.
The Hawkes move to Hightown in Act 2 because now they have the money to match the noble name... Admittedly it'd be harder to do with a city elf. But not impossible. The city elf family could just get "promoted" to live-in servants or stewards to a noble in Hightown who is so old, eccentric, reclusive, whatever that s/he basically lets them run the estate in all but name.
I think, as DA:I proves, the amount of work you need to do for a largely functional game centered on multiple races is entirely doable even when you're a divine figure in a human religion. DA2 did not really have a great deal of content that required a human only protagonist, but it wouldn't have worked with dwarves (unless both bethany and carver died).
The Hawkes move to Hightown in Act 2 because now they have the money to match the noble name... Admittedly it'd be harder to do with a city elf. But not impossible. The city elf family could just get "promoted" to live-in servants or stewards to a noble in Hightown who is so old, eccentric, reclusive, whatever that s/he basically lets them run the estate in all but name.
There's no reason why Hawke couldn't openly move into Hightown as an elf. Sure, they're racist about it, but we see rich elves who live outside of the alienage by implication. We can just have it so that Aveline and the guard cover you from the mob. It also helps make her look less racist.
Just look at all the footage and screenshots of the new protagonist. Everything shown is him/her being in N7 armor and BioWare has stated he/she is "somehow related to N7." To be quite honest, I'm actually all for this as N7 was never adequately explained nor elaborated on in Mass Effect. Once Shepard became a Spectre, being N7 was relatively minor and had little impact. It's also somewhat odd the most iconic emblem in Mass Effect has such little meaning in the actual games.
No thanks, I have no interest in any future Mass Effect games. Hope it does well by you though.
I don't know about anyone else but I really liked the silent protagonist because I was able to use my imagination something few people do today.
I don't know about anyone else but I really liked the silent protagonist because I was able to use my imagination something few people do today.
Books are for imagination, not story-driven video games. If you want to use your imagination, play a sandbox RPG, such as The Elder Scrolls, EVE, etc. The world is yours to shape and you can imagine and headcanon to your heart's content.
I think, as DA:I proves, the amount of work you need to do for a largely functional game centered on multiple races is entirely doable even when you're a divine figure in a human religion. DA2 did not really have a great deal of content that required a human only protagonist, but it wouldn't have worked with dwarves (unless both bethany and carver died).
To me, DA:I demonstrated that trying to do multiple races will generally just end up with race being a cosmetic difference. There's a few dialogue options here and there, but nothing more than that. Playing an elf or a qunari doesn't feel any different from playing a human (haven't done a dwarf yet, but I can't see it being any different). The game is functional, sure, and it having the extra races doesn't actively make the game worse or anything - except in the sense that resources could be spent elsewhere, which is a pretty major thing - but they don't really add much to the game as is. Of course, there's plenty of scope for that to be changed, for playing different races to lead to a genuinely different experience, but it's a long long way from that scope being realised, and it would take a lot of work for it to be.
I guess my attitude is if you're going to do a half-assed job with something like incoporating other races (as in DA:I, and indeed to some extent in DA:O), don't bother doing it at all and spend the resources elsewhere.
To me, DA:I demonstrated that trying to do multiple races will generally just end up with race being a cosmetic difference. There's a few dialogue options here and there, but nothing more than that. Playing an elf or a qunari doesn't feel any different from playing a human (haven't done a dwarf yet, but I can't see it being any different). The game is functional, sure, and it having the extra races doesn't actively make the game worse or anything - except in the sense that resources could be spent elsewhere, which is a pretty major thing - but they don't really add much to the game as is. Of course, there's plenty of scope for that to be changed, for playing different races to lead to a genuinely different experience, but it's a long long way from that scope being realised, and it would take a lot of work for it to be.
I guess my attitude is if you're going to do a half-assed job with something like incoporating other races (as in DA:I, and indeed to some extent in DA:O), don't bother doing it at all and spend the resources elsewhere.
This is my sentiment exactly. I think many here are viewing multi-race through rose-colored glasses because they want them to work. They have never worked that well, even in Origins. BioWare has time and time again grappled with how to resolve this problem and alleviate its shortcomings. They still haven't found a viable solution. Ultimately, I think it's an unfair and unrealistic burden to place on the writing team to consider so many different variables for four races. Not to mention, the writers are limited to a certain amount of words for the story. If you give too much context dedicated to the varying races, you won't have much of a story after that.
Whatever people choose to believe, multi-race is a secondary option and really more so fluff than anything else. BioWare adds it because a fraction of the community keeps demanding it. However, I'm under the impression BioWare knows well enough they can never truly do multi-race justice given how game development works and what their priorities are. This is why I don't even see the sense of wasting resources to start knowing the amount of effort that would need to go into multi-race would just detract from everything else. Again, the cost of multi-race is just too high to what is the actual main point of a BioWare game: Story.
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