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[Cyberstrike nTo]

The problem with Dragon Age II isn't that players couldn't Hawke as an elf and dwarf. It was that story had so much potentional and squandered most of it because of being rushed.

 

There are so many great ideas that could have made DA2 even better than DAO in Act 2 having the option of having Hawke go into politics, business, or get a title (lord or lady) and having to deal with the Magister whose son you kill or not. Kill his son he's not very likely to help you get a seat on the Kirkwall City Council (or some kind of governing body that works under the viscount and deals) or grant you a permit to start a business, or a title.

How do you deal with him?

 

You could expose him and what his son was to the public but would enough humans in Hightown care?

Try to bribe him (with an optional quest to have Aveline set up a sting)?

Kill him? 

 

If you didn't kill his son (who was serial killer who targeted elves for being too beautiful) the Elven merchant will hinder you by spreading word that you spared a serial killer and creates a public campaign against you. Maybe have the serial killer escape and come after Merrill and if you're in a romance with her maybe he attacks them in Hawke's estate.

 

What about happened between Hawke and the Thieve's Guild/Red Iron it doesn't matter who join each leader states that Hawke had disagreement with them and walked out. How did Hawke meet Tomwise, Worthy, and Lady Elegant? How did Aveline become a guard and why didn't she report Bethany or Hawke to the Templars? 

 

How about a quest with the Coatie, Carta, and The Thieve's Guild/Red Iron have an all gang war and Hawke and company have to stop it somehow?

 

Hawke co-owning the Bone Pit does giving the workers a raise help or hinder profits? Maybe have Hawke offer benefits and your partner disagrees with you?

 

There were so many chances that DA2 could have given more player agency and more chances to explore and roleplay than what was given and that, to me at least, is so frustrating about DA2 is that the potentional for greatness is there it just wasn't realized. If BioWare/EA were to remake one of their past games, (and I mean basically remaking the whole damn game not just a slight graphical update tweak), DA2 would be one of my top choices.  

[AWTEW]

edit:nvm

[Cyonan]

Another thing is the  additional time and monetary cost of animation with multiple races.

 

Consider one josiphine romance scene for example(note that this is a simplified and broad basic calculation.)

 

Lets say it goes for two minutes, at 60 frames per second.

So for a minute of animation, that is )3600 frames that need to be animated/connected.

Multiply that by  8 (races of both gender)

and that is 28800 frames of animation that need to be account for/checked for a  just a two minitue scene. (this is just considering base models alone, adding the customisable variances makes the number much higher obvs)

Factor in wages per person ect, and that one two minute scene of animation costs EA thousands in wages.

 

Take away those additional races, and the savings on time and money are significant. And those significant costs could be utilised elsewhere, like more cinematic scenes for the inquisitor ect. I'd even say that it is part of the reason why there are far less cinimatics in DAI.

 

Animation isn't done frame by frame anymore. Computers do a lot of the work for us now, which can run without needing to have somebody sitting there that you're paying.

 

If 120 seconds of animation cost EA thousands of dollars, the game would have cost over $1 million to make.

[AWTEW]

Animation isn't done frame by frame anymore. Computers do a lot of the work for us now, which can run without needing to have somebody sitting there that you're paying.

 

If 120 seconds of animation cost EA thousands of dollars, the game would have cost over $1 million to make.

 

Ahh, okay I'm behind on the tech then. Thanks for correction

[Xetykins]

DAO suffered by having a blank slate instead of an actual protagonist, but the game was largely carried due to well-executed events and great characters.

Are you quite sure about that statement? Because the blank slate and unvoiced Warden seems to be the most popular of the 3. There are a few things that DAO suffered from, but certainly not because of the different races. Unless you got evidence to back that statement, it only suffered because you hate it. Which btw is not a problem. Different strokes and all that.

[MattH]

Animation isn't done frame by frame anymore. Computers do a lot of the work for us now, which can run without needing to have somebody sitting there that you're paying.

 

If 120 seconds of animation cost EA thousands of dollars, the game would have cost over $1 million to make.

Regardless, animation is a costly, they would save a good portion of money with one set race, not to mention saving on voice acting and line count, that they could use elsewhere.

[Cyonan]

Regardless, animation is a costly, they would save a good portion of money with one set race, not to mention saving on voice acting and line count, that they could use elsewhere.

 

Well in Inquisition all races use the same voice actor, which means the only additional voice acting that needs to be done are the odd lines that actually acknowledge your race. If you want to make that argument, they would save far more money by not having 2 voice options for each gender.

 

Although in reality, the whole "It cost them money that could have been used elsewhere" can be applied to literally everything in the game. It comes down to if what we would have gotten instead is better than additional races or not.

[Revan Reborn]

Are you quite sure about that statement? Because the blank slate and unvoiced Warden seems to be the most popular of the 3. There are a few things that DAO suffered from, but certainly not because of the different races. Unless you got evidence to back that statement, it only suffered because you hate it. Which btw is not a problem. Different strokes and all that.

It's highly debatable. I certainly was used to the silent protagonist in BioWare games so DAO was nothing new. I had played KotOR and JE long before DA was ever released. However, ME showed that a voiced protagonist could do things a silent protagonist never could: giving passion and soul to a performance. Having a quality voiced protagonist completely revolutionized the experience.

 

I don't "hate" anything here. If I hated silent protagonists, do you really think I would have played any BioWare game pre-Mass Effect? I'm just merely suggesting that a voiced protagonist has more benefits than a silent protagonist. BioWare certainly agrees considering all of their games since DAO have contained voiced protagonists. They seem to believe the investment is worth the effort.

[Xetykins]

It's highly debatable. I certainly was used to the silent protagonist in BioWare games so DAO was nothing new. I had played KotOR and JE long before DA was ever released. However, ME showed that a voiced protagonist could do things a silent protagonist never could: giving passion and soul to a performance. Having a quality voiced protagonist completely revolutionized the experience.

I don't "hate" anything here. If I hated silent protagonists, do you really think I would have played any BioWare game pre-Mass Effect? I'm just merely suggesting that a voiced protagonist has more benefits than a silent protagonist. BioWare certainly agrees considering all of their games since DAO have contained voiced protagonists. They seem to believe the investment is worth the effort.

Still don't see any evidence from you that dao suffered from a blank slate protagonist and multi- race, which was the topic here and which was what I was quoting. You are always comparing it to ME, which was a totally different kettle of fish.

[Tex]

As you've said Revan Reborn a game where they focus all of the resources on one particular race would of cause make that character better but the problem is the majority only play as humans so bioware if they were to focus on one race only in the next game you and I both know they would only make a human protagonist because they want to get the most value from their games and sadly that means they would never make anything other than a human because the majority who only play as humans would not buy such a game. This is why I personally love the so called human re-skin that we have in inquisition because I know I'm lucky to have even that "sigh" oh well.

[Revan Reborn]

As you've said Revan Reborn a game where they focus all of the resources on one particular race would of cause make that character better but the problem is the majority only play as humans so bioware if they were to focus on one race only in the next game you and I both know they would only make a human protagonist because they want to get the most value from their games and sadly that means they would never make anything other than a human because the majority who only play as humans would not buy such a game. This is why I personally love the so called human re-skin that we have in inquisition because I know I'm lucky to have even that "sigh" oh well.

Maybe. It is true that most gamers who play BioWare games only play human, showing more evidence that multi-race isn't actually that widely popular. However, I don't believe a BioWare game would suffer nearly as much as people believe if they made the protagonist a qunari, elf, or a dwarf. On the contrary, I think it would be a breath of fresh air for BioWare to do something drastically different rather than trying to make a blank template to accommodate all the races.

 

Will it happen? Probably not. However, I think focusing on one non-human race for a game rather than just having multi-race is a much better solution. I'm a proponent of quality, not quantity.

[AlanC9]

Are you quite sure about that statement? Because the blank slate and unvoiced Warden seems to be the most popular of the 3. There are a few things that DAO suffered from, but certainly not because of the different races. Unless you got evidence to back that statement, it only suffered because you hate it. Which btw is not a problem. Different strokes and all that.

Well, he isn't the only one who prefers voiced. Either Bio's data shows that voiced is more popular, or Bio's gone to voiced for artistic reasons.

[Xetykins]

Well, he isn't the only one who prefers voiced. Either Bio's data shows that voiced is more popular, or Bio's gone to voiced for artistic reasons.

Like I said voice or no voice does not bother me either way. But I quoted his claims that DAO and DAI actually suffered from not having a pre-defined protagonist on this same page. I just wanted to know where he pulled that from.

[Revan Reborn]

Like I said voice or no voice does not bother me either way. But I quoted his claims that DAO and DAI actually suffered from not having a pre-defined protagonist on this same page. I just wanted to know where he pulled that from.

DAII was in direct response to the various issues DAO was plagued with. Having a pre-defined protagonist in Hawke as well as the inclusion of the dialogue wheel, personality, faster combat, new art style, etc. were all features implemented to resolve problems with DAO.

 

DAI was BioWare's way of trying to give back some control to the player as the vocal minority spoke out against a Hawke-type character. Clearly, from many of the threads here that have been posted for months since DAI's release, the reception of the Inquisitor, as a protagonist, doesn't seem to be that positive. Many found the Inquisitor to be underwhelming, lacking depth, and not really having much power or choice in the game at all.

[Felya87]

DAII was in direct response to the various issues DAO was plagued with. Having a pre-defined protagonist in Hawke as well as the inclusion of the dialogue wheel, personality, faster combat, new art style, etc. were all features implemented to resolve problems with DAO.

 

DAI was BioWare's way of trying to give back some control to the player as the vocal minority spoke out against a Hawke-type character. Clearly, from many of the threads here that have been posted for months since DAI's release, the reception of the Inquisitor, as a protagonist, doesn't seem to be that positive. Many found the Inquisitor to be underwhelming, lacking depth, and not really having much power or choice in the game at all.

 

DA2 was the way to make Dragon Effect. Based on ME. But in a fantasy setting, expecially in a sequel of a game that ALREADY gave the options of playable races, doesn't work for fans.

 

And you still deny that Hawke was quite hated as a character. I guess the most hated BioWare protagonist ever. (the most hated character is and will always be the CataCasper)

What you still (without numbers or proof in hand) claim is that only a minority of people wanted the races back. I can assure you if that was true, BioWare would not have gone back to playable races. That means, deal with it, that a very large fanbase wanted races back. Stop kidding yourself.

[phaonica]

DAI was BioWare's way of trying to give back some control to the player as the vocal minority spoke out against a Hawke-type character. Clearly, from many of the threads here that have been posted for months since DAI's release, the reception of the Inquisitor, as a protagonist, doesn't seem to be that positive. Many found the Inquisitor to be underwhelming, lacking depth, and not really having much power or choice in the game at all.

 

Your own argument makes no sense. According to you, those who spoke out against Hawke were a "vocal minority", yet the "many of the threads" speaking out against the Inquisitor are not a vocal minority and for some reason carry more weight.

[Morroian]

And you still deny that Hawke was quite hated as a character. 

 

A lot of which is due to those who dislike the game projecting that on to Hawke.

[Tex]

DA2 was the way to make Dragon Effect. Based on ME. But in a fantasy setting, expecially in a sequel of a game that ALREADY gave the options of playable races, doesn't work for fans.
 
And you still deny that Hawke was quite hated as a character. I guess the most hated BioWare protagonist ever. (the most hated character is and will always be the CataCasper)
What you still (without numbers or proof in hand) claim is that only a minority of people wanted the races back. I can assure you if that was true, BioWare would not have gone back to playable races. That means, deal with it, that a very large fanbase wanted races back. Stop kidding yourself.

I think you're right that before dragon age inquisition was released that a lot of people did want races back but unfortunately after how they were included the majority of people are saying that inquisition has shown them that it isn't worth it which I personally think is a real shame "sigh" but everyone is different I guess.

[Eelectrica]

Maybe. It is true that most gamers who play BioWare games only play human, showing more evidence that multi-race isn't actually that widely popular.

And most people don't even finish the games they buy, so does that mean they should do away with endings?

Most people don't finish the romances either.

 

 

I think you're right that before dragon age inquisition was released that a lot of people did want races back but unfortunately after how they were included the majority of people are saying that inquisition has shown them that it isn't worth it which I personally think is a real shame "sigh" but everyone is different I guess.

If they toss out everything that could have been done better, We're not going to get a whole lot in DA4.

So the trick is to look at things and say well this was a good idea, just needs be executed better next time, not tossed out.

[Xetykins]

A lot of which is due to those who dislike the game projecting that on to Hawke.

Which probably also because of being a pre-defined character and and very very little player agency. Heck, they even took away her freedom to equipt variety of weapons and armor and her companions. To people who did not play DAO first like me, I had no problem with it. But I can understand those who played the first one first and suddenly felt that a lot has been taken away.

[Felya87]

I think you're right that before dragon age inquisition was released that a lot of people did want races back but unfortunately after how they were included the majority of people are saying that inquisition has shown them that it isn't worth it which I personally think is a real shame "sigh" but everyone is different I guess.

I don't see all this "mayority". There are People who say that they could be done better. But I see few People Like the OP. Just a look At the customizatin tread and you will see How many People love their elves, qunari and dwarfs.
And with How DAI is going towards elven lore related stuff, not being able to play an elf again would be not as interesting as playng a human prefixed character.

Keep in mind even People who usually play humans Like to play their Second run with a non human character.
The feature need improvemant, not to be dropped, Like bioware have done many times.

[PhroXenGold]

Keep in mind even People who usually play humans Like to play their Second run with a non human character.

 

I strongly suspect that most people who buy the game don't actually do a second run....

[Felya87]

I strongly suspect that most people who buy the game don't actually do a second run....

 

But the "good costumers" do. Those who buy the DLCs, the books, the shirts and the other stuff. Better keep these people happy.

[Revan Reborn]

Which probably also because of being a pre-defined character and and very very little player agency. Heck, they even took away her freedom to equipt variety of weapons and armor and her companions. To people who did not play DAO first like me, I had no problem with it. But I can understand those who played the first one first and suddenly felt that a lot has been taken away.

Equipping armor and weapons on companions has nothing to do with a "defined character" or lack of multi-race. You are complaining about gameplay issues that were obviously negative aspects of DAII. It was gameplay that was the major criticism of DAII, not Hawke. Outside of some suggesting they did not like Hawke's three personalities, I have found little actual constructive criticism for why Hawke is such a "terrible" character.

 

But the "good costumers" do. Those who buy the DLCs, the books, the shirts and the other stuff. Better keep these people happy.

This is the most ridiculous thing you have said yet. "Good customers"? I suspect you are a "good customer" then? Look, you are more than welcome to your opinion. You can live in whatever fantasy you want calling DAII "Dragon Effect" and blame the game's failure on Hawke as a protagonist. I believe that's incredibly narrow-minded and shows how you cannot be impartial to this discussion, but that is your prerogative.

 

While it's debatable how many BioWare fans actually want multi-race, this thread alone seems to suggest many did not like how multi-race was approached in DAI. Certainly, BioWare has never been happy with its implementation and continues to experiment with each game. Obviously, there are issues with the system and the question is whether they can be resolved without adversely affecting the story. I don't believe they can in a reasonable manner.