820 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

Thus, it makes more sense to have a defined and established character because it creates a better story. 

That's subjective

[zambingo]

Not sure "needs" is accurate, perhaps "I'd prefer" is the phrase the OP is looking for. A set protag vs an alterable one doesn't mean a game will be bad or not. Also an alterable protag doesn't mean bland or generic. Maybe a protag (set or alterable) could benefit from more than just friendship or romance quests to help fill out their persona. Maybe Bioware could work on a full fledged quest per game that focuses on the protag's background and how they are growing into the main quest.

Inquisition tries to expand on the protag's background with war table quests, but imagine if those were actually playable. You get to go, meet/greet and solve a issue. Then even get to chat about it afterwards with companions... so literally a companion quest structure but for the protag. Maybe this could have breathed some life into a protag like the Quizzy, who some think is lifeless.

[AresKeith]

Inquisition tries to expand on the protag's background with war table quests, but imagine if those were actually playable. You get to go, meet/greet and solve a issue. Then even get to chat about it afterwards with companions... so literally a companion quest structure but for the protag. Maybe could have breathed some life into protag like the Quizzy, who some think is lifeless.

 

Tbh, I think they were meant to be playable but had to be cut because they couldn't implement them in time

 

Similar to ME3, some of the War Assets fetch quests felt like they were gonna be actual side missions

[Revan Reborn]

Pillars of Eternity is not an indie game. It was made by a huge team of industry veterans for like $4,500,000.

Actually, it is. Contrary to popular belief, well-known, independent studios, such as Obsidian, can actually make Indie games. Especially when a large portion of their funding came from Kickstarter. The only games that are considered "AAA" are games that are funded by large publishers, such as EA, Ubisoft, and Activision.

 

In your opinion, maybe race selection lessens the storytelling. To others, it enhances the storytelling since it allows the player to see and handle the situations we are put in from different angles. You can have both a lot of choices and a good story. 

Except, that's not reality. Play as any of the three races in DAO or any of the four races in DAI. In most cases your races doesn't matter at all. It will come up a few times, but the most important thing about your character is your title "Herald of Andraste" and "Inquisitior," not your race. With Shepard, he wasn't just N7 and he wasn't just a Spectre. He was human, and his race played a major theme throughout the trilogy. You can't have that kind of theme when BioWare has to accommodate multiple races. They don't have the funds nor the resources to make the game that dynamic. Building large stories with VO is incredibly expensive, and BioWare's not going to make four different stories just to comport with different races.

 

Mass Effect is more popular since it appeals to a larger audience. 

 

For RPG fans, it gives them a good scifi story with lots of roleplayability. 

For Shooter fans, it gives them a Shooter with a good scifi story. 

 

And we sdon't know it is human-only yet. DAI was originally presented as human-only, but they added race selection in later. Since ME:Next has at least a year of development left, we can't say for sure what it will and will not have in terms of protgonist. 

What is the one thing that comes to mind when people think of Mass Effect? Shepard. What is the one thing that comes to mind when people think of Dragon Age? You see my point. Shepard is the crux and focal point for why Mass Effect is popular beyond anything else. It is the fact that you make your own Shepard and shape him/her that has such a resonating effect. You don't have that with DAI as BioWare doesn't have a defined character outside of Hawke. The way they try to rectify this is by focusing the character around a title, such as "Warden" and "Inquisitor." It doesn't work. It merely shows how shallow the characters actually are.

 

As far as the next Mass Effect, just look at all the footage and screenshots. "Our hero," BioWare's words, is a human male/female clad in N7 armor. We will also have the Mako as our main means of ground exploration, which is an Alliance Navy vehicle. We are going to be human only. Non-humans aren't allowed in the N7 and the story wouldn't make sense if you try to accommodate too many different aliens. Again, this is the issue with Dragon Age. It's not concise like Mass Effect is. One way BioWare allows people to play as other races in Mass Effect is through the multiplayer. I believe that's a great solution to solve the issue of lack of variety. For story, more variety merely dilutes the experience.

[Patient.Zero]

Is it ok that I like Dragon Age Inquisition? I feel like a lot of the topics on the forum are about how the one feels the game wasn't done properly, and if you don't see that person's point then you're close minded or "not a real fan" (or vice versa).

 

I liked being able to be a different race with each play though, I liked the way it changed the way I was treated and the way I chose to act. Personally I like to play the as someone who's not human because that is already a reality I'm experiencing. (I know the OP wasn't try to pigeon hole the conversation to be about human focused games vs. choose your race games That was just to address the people who feel that paying as a non-human is weird.)

 

Also I don't think it's that much of a stretch to have the best to both words. Why is it impossible to have a great story in a game that allows for you to chose your race? If the difference is just a bit of back story I don't see why that would be so hard to incorporate. 

[leaguer of one]

Pillars of Eternity is not an indie game. It was made by a huge team of industry veterans for like $4,500,000.

It's an indie game.

[leaguer of one]

Geralt is a fabulous character IMO. He totally grows on you, and you can develop his personality in deep and subtle ways...at least thats been my experience of him. He is the definition of hero from my perspective. I say that as a huge, diehard DA fan.

But that's not role playing.

[Revan Reborn]

Here's my personal take on what DA4 needs.  Ready?  Whatever Bioware thinks is best.

 

I've yet to be disappointed by a protagonist in a Bioware game, so I'll just continue to trust them to know what is best for the story they want to tell, even if it would not have been my personal first choice of how to do it ahead of time.  It's their game and their story  they are trying to tell and I have never, ever failed to have a wonderful and wild ride along the way.

That might change. I'm not sure how aware you are of the writing team at BioWare, but it's not the same it was three years ago.

 

Drew Karpyshyn (lead writer on KotOR, JE, ME1, ME2) left the studio after SWTOR. David Gaider (lead writer on DAO, DAII, DAI) has stepped down from his position and moving on to an unannounced BioWare project. Even Mac Walters (lead writer on ME3) is changing positions as the creative lead on the next Mass Effect while th lead writer from Halo 4 becomes the leader writer for the new Mass Effect game.

 

My point is the writing team for BioWare has changed a lot in the last several years. As a result, it's almost certain their games and how they are told will change, including main protagonists. This is why it's important, in my opinion, that they have a winning formula that is consistent and proven rather than tinker back and forth whether to have a more defined character or go with a blank slate. Eventually, it could just lead to a bad game overall.

[Revan Reborn]

Is it ok that I like Dragon Age Inquisition? I feel like a lot of the topics on the forum are about how the one feels the game wasn't done properly, and if you don't see that person's point then you're close minded or "not a real fan" (or vice versa).

 

I liked being able to be a different race with each play though, I liked the way it changed the way I was treated and the way I chose to act. Personally I like to play the as someone who's not human because that is already a reality I'm experiencing. (I know the OP wasn't try to pigeon hole the conversation to be about human focused games vs. choose your race games That was just to address the people who feel that paying as a non-human is weird.)

 

Also I don't think it's that much of a stretch to have the best to both words. Why is it impossible to have a great story in a game that allows for you to chose your race? If the difference is just a bit of back story I don't see why that would be so hard to incorporate. 

You misunderstand. If I didn't like BioWare games, I wouldn't even be here. On the contrary, I believe Dragon Age Inquisition is a great game. My main criticism of the game is it was too big and too ambitious, thus BioWare had a lot of systems that were neglected and led to mediocre results. I think trying to have too many races was an area where BioWare suffered from a storytelling perspective.

 

All I can say to answer your last statement is look at Skyrim and Mass Effect. They are essentially polar opposites. Now, try to combine the best of both aspects in each game into one. Easier said than done. One aspect I don't believe works well is an ambiguous and ill-defined character in a story-driven experience. If BioWare doesn't know who your character is, how can they build a compelling story around him/her to start?

[KaiserShep]

Indifferent as I am to multi-race options, the issue is that unlike Mass Effect, the DAverse is populated by races that are essentially just "fantasy humans" that are all pretty much compatible with one another. This makes it exceedingly difficult to exclude the option without frustrating players.

[Heimdall]

Except, that's not reality. Play as any of the three races in DAO or any of the four races in DAI. In most cases your races doesn't matter at all. It will come up a few times, but the most important thing about your character is your title "Herald of Andraste" and "Inquisitior," not your race. With Shepard, he wasn't just N7 and he wasn't just a Spectre. He was human, and his race played a major theme throughout the trilogy. You can't have that kind of theme when BioWare has to accommodate multiple races. They don't have the funds nor the resources to make the game that dynamic. Building large stories with VO is incredibly expensive, and BioWare's not going to make four different stories just to comport with different races.

That's just, like, your opinion man.

Seriously, how many times does it need to be explained that what you describe is not what most of us that favor race selection expect?

I get it, you favor set characters with set names, set backgrounds, and semi-set personalities. That's fine, that's your playstyle.

That's not our playstyle. We want more leeway in influencing and defining this character. We want to make it our own. That is very important to us.  What you see as a weakness is what draws us to this genre in the first place.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Except, that's not reality. Play as any of the three races in DAO or any of the four races in DAI. In most cases your races doesn't matter at all. It will come up a few times, but the most important thing about your character is your title "Herald of Andraste" and "Inquisitior," not your race. With Shepard, he wasn't just N7 and he wasn't just a Spectre. He was human, and his race played a major theme throughout the trilogy. You can't have that kind of theme when BioWare has to accommodate multiple races. They don't have the funds nor the resources to make the game that dynamic. Building large stories with VO is incredibly expensive, and BioWare's not going to make four different stories just to comport with different races.

I've been able to achieve results for quests that aren't possible for any other race. I've experienced several dialogues exclusive to the race I'm playing. I wouldn't say that's "doesn't matter at all". 

 

Shepard being a human was really only important in Mass Effect 1 since humanity was the new kid on the block. In Mass Effect 2 and 3, it has just as much impact as our race in DAI does. Mentioned a few times and some dialogue about it. But you said that's "doesn't matter at all.". 

 

What does voice work have to do with race selection? Different races can have the same voice. There are only a few races that have something about their voice that makes it different, like the Turians having a resonating sound to it. 

 

What is the one thing that comes to mind when people think of Mass Effect? Shepard. What is the one thing that comes to mind when people think of Dragon Age? You see my point. Shepard is the crux and focal point for why Mass Effect is popular beyond anything else. It is the fact that you make your own Shepard and shape him/her that has such a resonating effect. You don't have that with DAI as BioWare doesn't have a defined character outside of Hawke. The way they try to rectify this is by focusing the character around a title, such as "Warden" and "Inquisitor." It doesn't work. It merely shows how shallow the characters actually are.

Actually, the first thing I think of is the world of Mass Effect. Shepard is just a person in it. Just like Dragon Age. 

 

lol at Shepard being my own Shepard. The Inquisitor was more my character than Shepard was because Bioware took a lot of liberties with thinking what the players would have their Shepard be. And most people in Mass Effect refer to you by your title as well, and DAI had them refer to you by surname a few times. 

 

As far as the next Mass Effect, just look at all the footage and screenshots. "Our hero," BioWare's words, is a human male/female clad in N7 armor. We will also have the Mako as our main means of ground exploration, which is an Alliance Navy vehicle. We are going to be human only. Non-humans aren't allowed in the N7 and the story wouldn't make sense if you try to accommodate too many different aliens. Again, this is the issue with Dragon Age. It's not concise like Mass Effect is. One way BioWare allows people to play as other races in Mass Effect is through the multiplayer. I believe that's a great solution to solve the issue of lack of variety. For story, more variety merely dilutes the experience.

I know what they are saying. Bioware has also been known to change their mind and/or flat out lie in presentations and interviews. 

 

You have no idea N7 is still a human-only organization. All the MP characters are referred to as N7 as well. A lot can change between two points in history. Plus who said many alien races would be available. Even just offering the Council races would do for a lot of the people wanting it. 

 

And no, MP isn't a solution. Unless the MP comes with its own campaign, what you're playing as makes no difference except your hit box size and what abilities you have. Nothing to do with roleplaying, thus not a solution to roleplaying as different races. 

 

Again, in your opinion. To others, it enhances the experience. 

[NaclynE]

Frankly I always enjoyed playing RPG's about my character and not play RPG's where i am Tidus who is a whiney guy or Yuna who always seems unsure of herself at all times. At least with the DRAGON AGE/ MASS EFFECT games it seems like I can build my guy/girl to anyway I want but I kind of sort of had a minor problem with the whole Jane/John Shepard thing where I kind of feel like I at times partially lose the illusion of playing my character and feel like I'm playing Shepard instead. Sure you can argue "warden" or "Inquisitor" is no different but I just see it as a title and not my defenite character name. I kind of sort of see "shepard" being a title too but still I at times see it as a name not title.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Frankly I always enjoyed playing RPG's about my character and not play RPG's where i am Tidus who is a whiney guy or Yuna who always seems unsure of herself at all times. At least with the DRAGON AGE/ MASS EFFECT games it seems like I can build my guy/girl to anyway I want but I kind of sort of had a minor problem with the whole Jane/John Shepard thing where I kind of feel like I at times partially lose the illusion of playing my character and feel like I'm playing Shepard instead. Sure you can argue "warden" or "Inquisitor" is no different but I just see it as a title and not my defenite character name. I kind of sort of see "shepard" being a title too but still I at times see it as a name not title.

Well, in the game universe it is a title now. The Shepard. 

[NaclynE]

Well, in the game universe it is a title now. The Shepard. 

 

True. However I still see it as being "Inquisitor" and not "Phil Inquisitor". Last time I checked Inquisitor is a noun not a name. I don't know of anyone with the first or last name of Inquisitor in real life. Lol.

[Patient.Zero]

You misunderstand. If I didn't like BioWare games, I wouldn't even be here. On the contrary, I believe Dragon Age Inquisition is a great game. My main criticism of the game is it was too big and too ambitious, thus BioWare had a lot of systems that were neglected and led to mediocre results. I think trying to have too many races was an area where BioWare suffered from a storytelling perspective.

 

All I can say to answer your last statement is look at Skyrim and Mass Effect. They are essentially polar opposites. Now, try to combine the best of both aspects in each game into one. Easier said than done. One aspect I don't believe works well is an ambiguous and ill-defined character in a story-driven experience. If BioWare doesn't know who your character is, how can they build a compelling story around him/her to start?

 

Should the world be build around the character though? Isn't the point of building any universe, be it in Dragon Age, Skyrim, or Mass Effect, that you are able to drop someone in the middle of it and watch them hit the ground running? For instance if you were to look at Game of Thrones (which I know is not a video game but bear with me) those stories weren't about making the world match up with/work for the character, it's about seeing people survive in the world that they live in. I feel like the Dragon Age universe isn't there to shape you into something, what you become is a choice you need to make for yourself. 

 

I hope that makes sense >_<

 

I'm glad to hear that you enjoyed the game, and I apologize for my misunderstanding. It's just that sometimes when I come on the forums to ask a question about something I think was interesting in the game or for an explanation of a certain character, I feel a bit intimidated by posts that seem like they're out to scold the developers or writers for doing things a certain way.

 

*EDIT* needed to add some things.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Should the world be build around the character though? Isn't the point of building any universe, be it in Dragon Age, Skyrim, or Mass Effect that you are able to drop someone in the middle of it and watch them hit the ground running? Like if you were to look at Game of Thrones (I know it's not a game but bear with me) those stories weren't about making the world match up with/work for the character, it's about seeing people survive in the world that they live in. I feel like the Dragon Age universe isn't there to shape you into something, what you become is a choice you need to make for yourself. 

 

I hope that makes sense >_<

Yep. The protagonist should just be a small, albeit important, piece of a larger world. The universe shouldn't be based around the character, but the character should be based around living in the universe. 

[Heimdall]

True. However I still see it as being "Inquisitor" and not "Phil Inquisitor". Last time I checked Inquisitor is a noun not a name. I don't know of anyone with the first or last name of Inquisitor in real life. Lol.

Its a title, it goes before your name and several characters use it as such.

 

"Lady Inquisitor Lavellan"

 

Inquisitor doesn't refer to a character really, rather a template.  What that template becomes is up to you, the player.

[Equalitas]

Is it just me who doesnt want to play a bioware created character in a bioware game. I want to create my own character in a bioware world. 
The only two games i liked with dialogue wheel is ME1 and ME2. Coz you have control of every response. So basically the less control you give me to my protagonist the less i will like him/her. 

[Lavaeolus]

I'm okay with a pre-defined character, so long as there's still room to heavily shape them and "create" your own distinct interpretation of that character. I'll definitely favour it over a completely blank slate, and I've never really liked the "think your own past" since it just proves easily shallow and almost always clashes with the events/presentation of the actual game (my personal preference is often to just leave the past sort of blank, a flexible thing that's largely irrelevant). Hawke wasn't perfect in that, more or less, there were three main "routes" (Diplomatic, Sarcastic, Aggressive), and you could mix-and-match to some degree -- indeed, you were really meant to -- but sometimes the merging could be a bit funky.

Perhaps my resistance was lowered by a lot of the other stories in SWTOR (Consular, you borish bastard), but I really enjoyed the Imperial Agent story, and thought it handled choice quite well. Ultimately, you were always this great spy, who was serving the Empire. Where you got the variability was in motivation: were you in it for the money/status, to protect the Empire, how far does your loyalty go, when you say you're loyal to the Empire does that mean the Sith (your "leaders"), or the civilians of the Empire? It helped that the choices actually had some heavy impact, with the most notable being the end of the first third and later on an additional possible ending if you spared this one guy. The nature of the story also gave a lot of direction to choosing your answer for these questions, unlike, say, in DA2, where the overall story isn't about whether you're going to make a random joke or suddenly threaten someone. Were you an alien, this worked into the story, especially were you Chiss, as you tried to prove aliens everywhere's worth and all that.

I'd love to see a story like it with proper expansion. Also, less MMO filler quests. Like, a whole lot less, thanks.

On the more pre-defined side, I also liked Lee in The Walking Dead, which is in fact not an RPG but nonetheless. Your devotion to Clemetine is pretty much assumed, and they do a good job at making you actually share this goal (always important, you generally don't want the player and the protagonist to be completely detached), and he even has a past, but there's still a lot of room to shape him even within the confines of being just some bloke.

[ESTAQ99]

That's just, like, your opinion man.

Seriously, how many times does it need to be explained that what you describe is not what most of us that favor race selection expect?

I get it, you favor set characters with set names, set backgrounds, and semi-set personalities. That's fine, that's your playstyle.

That's not our playstyle. We want more leeway in influencing and defining this character. We want to make it our own. That is very important to us.  What you see as a weakness is what draws us to this genre in the first place.

 

 

 

 

Yes, It is indeed his opinion and a valid and interesting one. He is just expressing it. Even if that causes you (and your "most of us" made up group) get irritated.

 

Speaking of "we want" and "important to us" or "our playstyle" , as if you were some sort of designated spokesperson for a given group of gamers does not give your equally subjective posts, any extra weight.

 

You sarcastically speak of "semi-set personalities" in a game that has less races to choose from for the protagonist as if there were so many different personalities to choose from in DA:I.

 

As the game is right now, no matter what race you choose from, you will always end up with a "no-personality at all" inquisitor (some sort of post-lobotomy main character) because the devs had to sacrifice developing an interesting protagonist in pro of having several choices for faces and body shapes for inquisitors. Oh yeah, they certainly can look very different but they will act exactly the same no matter the race, tattoos, horns, muscle or broken arms.

 

I'm all for having 100 different races to choose from. That's not the problem IMHO. It is a problem when the only difference between them is that they look different.

[Revan Reborn]

Should the world be build around the character though? Isn't the point of building any universe, be it in Dragon Age, Skyrim, or Mass Effect, that you are able to drop someone in the middle of it and watch them hit the ground running? For instance if you were to look at Game of Thrones (which I know it's not a video game but bear with me) those stories weren't about making the world match up with/work for the character, it's about seeing people survive in the world that they live in. I feel like the Dragon Age universe isn't there to shape you into something, what you become is a choice you need to make for yourself. 

 

I hope that makes sense >_<

 

I'm glad to hear that you enjoyed the game, and I apologize for my misunderstanding. It's just that sometimes when I come on the forums to ask a question about something I think was interesting in the game or for an explanation of a certain character, I feel a bit intimidated by posts that seem like there out to scold the developers or writers for doing things a certain way.

 

*EDIT* needed to add somethings.

No need to apologize. I definitely see your point. I think it's really a double-edged sword. There are benefits to "world building," if you will, but there are also benefits to "character building." I think Skyrim is the kind of game that has done such a great job of world building that it's easier to drop a character into the experience. Whereas BioWare games have always been better at character building, and it's really those characters, imo, that give the world meaning.

 

When I think of BioWare games, I think of the relationships I built. Whether it be Garrus, Canderous, Leliana, Miranda, Sera, these people make the world matter. They bring life to my surroundings. There's just something to be said when Garrus is grappling with what to do with Palaven being ransacked by reapers. I don't believe you'd have the same connection to Palaven, or Tuchanka, or Thessia, or any planet in Mass Effect if not for the relationships you made. That's just my opinion.

[Patient.Zero]

No need to apologize. I definitely see your point. I think it's really a double-edged sword. There are benefits to "world building," if you will, but there are also benefits to "character building." I think Skyrim is the kind of game that has done such a great job of world building that it's easier to drop a character into the experience. Whereas BioWare games have always been better at character building, and it's really those characters, imo, that give the world meaning.

When I think of BioWare games, I think of the relationships I built. Whether it be Garrus, Canderous, Leliana, Miranda, Sera, these people make the world matter. They bring life to my surroundings. There's just something to be said when Garrus is grappling with what to do with Palaven being ransacked by reapers. I don't believe you'd have the same connection to Palaven, or Tuchanka, or Thessia, or any planet in Mass Effect if not for the relationships you made. That's just my opinion.

When I refer to the Dragon Age universe I mean to also refer to the people that inhabit that world not just the lore. I understand what you mean when you say the relationships that you have with characters in a game bringing life to your surroundings, one of my favourite characters in DA:I was Cole and having him around definitely enhanced my personal experience. I just don't think that having interesting characters has to be mutually exclusive with having a protagonist that can be of multiple races. As someone who liked Sera surely you must have noticed her reaction to a Qunri is different to her reaction to a human, and that carries throughout the game changing your relationship with her (be it platonic or otherwise). People like Cole and Sera are going to exist in Thedas with or without the Inquisitor as they are already apart of that world. Your character's background has nothing to do with them. So allowing for your character to have multiple backgrounds due to the option of being multiple races isn't poor storytelling because of "too many variable or possibilities", it's just a way for the player to go about making their own interesting character.

If Bioware had to write your character for you then it won't really be your character would it? It would just be you slipping into the skin of someone else and playing out their story. The Witcher 3 is a good example of this actually, Geralt's story is Geralt's not yours. As great a story as it may be (and I've heard it's pretty great) it's not really you. If you're saying that a more notable difference between races other in the subtle ones you get in codexes, banter, interactions with your companions and NPCs then I can see that, but such changes don't have to be come with a fixed character.

[Steppenwolf]

And we sdon't know [ME4] is human-only yet. DAI was originally presented as human-only, but they added race selection in later. Since ME:Next has at least a year of development left, we can't say for sure what it will and will not have in terms of protgonist.

The protagonist is N7 so it's a sure thing that we're stuck playing a human again.

Actually, it is. Contrary to popular belief, well-known, independent studios, such as Obsidian, can actually make Indie games. Especially when a large portion of their funding came from Kickstarter. The only games that are considered "AAA" are games that are funded by large publishers, such as EA, Ubisoft, and Activision.

By that logic Dragon Age:Origins was an indie game since it was made before EA acquired BioWare.