Nope, lol. Just watched it on youtube. If Jack isn't there he actually tells Miranda he doesn't want her leading. I've never had a teammate (in ME2) die so I thought he was disapproving Jack, but it had to be Miranda. He seemed pretty pissed off.
Yep. I've had him say that a couple of times
I know Jack, Jacob, Garrus and Samara say something. I don't recall if anyone else says anything to her. Maybe on my next ME2 playthrough I will see if anyone else will say something
Paul Grayson and a team of Cerberus infiltrated the Migrant Fleet and a lot of Quarians was killed to get Gillian back. For a tight-knit society, that was an act of war. So Tali has a healthy amount of distrust on anything by Cerberus. At Freedom's Progress, if Shepard wasn't there, the Quarians would have killed Miranda and Jacob. Even then, Miranda was all for taking Veetor back to Cerberus for more interrogation. None of this actually spell good first impression between either of them.
Miranda does seem capable as a leader but she doesn't command trust or loyalty from the rest of the crew unlike Shepard. That doesn't sound like good leadership qualities. Besides, Miri is an ardent supporter of Cerberus and she always make excuses for Cerberus and The Illusive Man. Remember her Cerberus-is-good talk about shock troopers? Look how that turns out in ME3.
In ME2, she's a pro-human supremacist and she's not apologetic about it. I wouldn't be surprised that Tali wouldn't go anywhere near the woman. I avoid toxic people too....
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Paul Grayson and a team of Cerberus infiltrated the Migrant Fleet and a lot of Quarians was killed to get Gillian back. For a tight-knit society, that was an act of war. So Tali has a healthy amount of distrust on anything by Cerberus. At Freedom's Progress, if Shepard wasn't there, the Quarians would have killed Miranda and Jacob. Even then, Miranda was all for taking Veetor back to Cerberus for more interrogation. None of this actually spell good first impression between either of them.
Miranda does seem capable as a leader but she doesn't command trust or loyalty from the rest of the crew unlike Shepard. That doesn't sound like good leadership qualities. Besides, Miri is an ardent supporter of Cerberus and she always make excuses for Cerberus and The Illusive Man. Remember her Cerberus-is-good talk about shock troopers? Look how that turns out in ME3.
In ME2, she's a pro-human supremacist and she's not apologetic about it. I wouldn't be surprised that Tali wouldn't go anywhere near the woman. I avoid toxic people too....
Miranda redeems herself though. She's no TIM. She won't sell out humanity itself for the sake of humanity... as seen at the Reaper baby decision. She'll fight those kind of abominations (made even more painfully clear by fighting her father too). And because of that, she's no longer Cerberus.
Yeah, I always thought the engine room was a snub.. Heh
Marking her territory I imagine.
Especially with Tali following Shepard around like a lost puppy in ME2. I headcanon it as Miranda not-so-subtly reminding Tali who has who.
My Shepard rolls with it. (headcanon) Tali was starting to get a little like Liara, not quite understanding that Shepard was just plain not interested, and Miranda needing to assert who was on top in this case.
Paul Grayson and a team of Cerberus infiltrated the Migrant Fleet and a lot of Quarians was killed to get Gillian back. For a tight-knit society, that was an act of war. So Tali has a healthy amount of distrust on anything by Cerberus. At Freedom's Progress, if Shepard wasn't there, the Quarians would have killed Miranda and Jacob. Even then, Miranda was all for taking Veetor back to Cerberus for more interrogation. None of this actually spell good first impression between either of them.
Miranda does seem capable as a leader but she doesn't command trust or loyalty from the rest of the crew unlike Shepard. That doesn't sound like good leadership qualities. Besides, Miri is an ardent supporter of Cerberus and she always make excuses for Cerberus and The Illusive Man. Remember her Cerberus-is-good talk about shock troopers? Look how that turns out in ME3.
In ME2, she's a pro-human supremacist and she's not apologetic about it. I wouldn't be surprised that Tali wouldn't go anywhere near the woman. I avoid toxic people too....
First things first, there are a lot of incorrect things in here, so let's nail them one at a time shall we?
First paragraph: I rather think that Jacob and Miranda would have killed the Quarians, what with their better equipment and getting the drop on the Quarians. As well, sans Shepard, it's probable that Cerberus would have sent a group of soldiers with them as an escort.
From what I can see, she does actually, among the crew. More than once you hear a comment by the Cerberus crew about how the Cerberus crew has faith in her abilities. As for everyone else, most don't really even try to give her a chance. And a lot of it is almost entirely from irrational and relatively unfounded reasons. There's really no basis to judge her actual leadership skills on this, due to such irrational distrust and dislike. So extrapolating that she's 'not a good leader' isn't a very credible position.
Also, I'm an ardent supporter of Cerberus. And I don't make excuses for Cerberus, I explain to you what they are why they do what they do. And I do think said shock-troops were a good idea. A great one in fact. I wish the alliance was doing that. We'd be holding out a lot better against the Reapers in the last game. But anyway, not to drag this into a discussion on the ethics and moral philosophy of Cerberus, but if you condemn them out of personal disgust with their actions (a rather irrational statement of ideology), I don't think there's much more to tell you except that you have the understanding of morality akin to a 10 year old, with no understanding of context or ambiguity.
Miranda is not a supremacist. Period. Being a Cerberus supporter does not equal a pro-human supremacist, nor does pro-human equal supremacist. Assumptions, assumptions.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Also, I'm an ardent supporter of Cerberus. And I don't make excuses for Cerberus, I explain to you what they are why they do what they do. And I do think said shock-troops were a good idea. A great one in fact. I wish the alliance was doing that. We'd be holding out a lot better against the Reapers in the last game. But anyway, not to drag this into a discussion on the ethics and moral philosophy of Cerberus, but if you condemn them out of personal disgust with their actions (a rather irrational statement of ideology), I don't think there's much more to tell you except that you have the understanding of morality akin to a 10 year old, with no understanding of context or ambiguity.
It doesn't have to be ideological differences necessarily. Default Shep was a Cerberus guinea pig. For him, the differences are more complicated and personal.
This Shep might even still be pro-human... just not so pro-human that he sells out fellow humans. That's the main message behind a lot of Shep's lines with TIM in ME3. "You were supposed to be a sword for humanity. Not a knife in the back." Not even Miranda is that way...and she finally makes her stand at the end of ME2. She's not TIM.
As for being a guinea pig, there's a line I always liked with Jack when she first asks to go to Pragia.
"You enjoy the power it gave you."
"I didn't have a choice."
I can apply that to Shep too. He might've learned something about inner strength from the Akuze incident, but it wasn't his choice... and that pisses him off.
Still the Cerberus angle, I'd wager. TIM's played fast and loose with them and Miranda's still his stand in at that point. Garrus trusts Shepard, not her.
Or perhaps its a more dispassionate assessment. He doesn't think she's a good choice because too many people have a problem with her. In a do-or-die situation that may come back to bite everyone on the ass.
I can't see a real rational reason for Garrus not wanting Miranda to be in charge beyond the second statement. I mean, my Shepard has already proven himself quite in-line with Cerberus' rules and ideology at this point, so Garrus trusting Shepard over Miranda seems pretty weird. I can see where it would come in, but I can't see how it's logical. About Garrus I mean.
On the level of actual leadership, I don't think there's a leg to stand on sans this part that we mentioned. A lot of people don't like her (and in my honest opinion, it's an unfair assessment from people who didn't want to give her a chance and are too bone-headed to put the mission above personal dislike). The team isn't really made up of the kind of people who will follow every tactical command as soon as the direction is out of the Commander's mouth. One of the very few down points to the ME2 team. As a commander myself, I'm willing to bet that the issue doesn't entirely lie with Miranda so much as it does with the people voicing their opinion, and I'd inform them as such (I do so proverbially anyway, by putting Miranda in charge of their team). It's not Miranda's job to be well liked or approved of. It's her job to get them to do what they need to do when they need to do it. She does that flawlessly. The dislike for her isn't professional criticism, it's personal disgust. Thus, I'm inclined to tell the problem teammates to unfuck themselves and do as they're told by Miranda and myself.
Who would dislike Miranda on the team though: Jack, Tali... Samara might, though I think she respects her, just doesn't approve of her actions all the time. Otherwise, I think Garrus disapproves of her, though I don't think it's out and out hate like the others. And everyone else either doesn't mind (or care) or approves of her.
Samara? No.... They got so much in common. Mature, feeling superior, no insecurities about their body, rigid principles...
It kind of does assume tragedy and death, in a way. It's kind of lazy.
Right around this time, Javik also has his "shard" scene about whether he should remember dead friends. Like they're assuming Shep is going through the same things. Like it works if Miranda just died... or even Jack in the next mission, if you abandoned Grissom.
It's extremely lazy. Once again they showed no respect for the live Scenario, instead building a scene based on dead Miranda & then foisting it upon all players. I avoid that horrid segment everytime now.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
It's extremely lazy. Once again they showed no respect for the live Scenario, instead building a scene based on dead Miranda & then foisting it upon all players. I avoid that horrid segment everytime now.
Sorry, man. I don't romance Miranda, but I sympathize with how she was handled. Who would've thought Jack and Miranda fans could see eye to eye? 
Miranda's characterization wasn't fully actualized even through the comic series itself. There was a lot of great assumption based on her presence, boasting and job descriptions in ME2. Besides, it was her idea to put all twelve of your squad mates in one shuttle and you can't veto her. Plot device but still...
On Freedom's Progress, even without Shepard, a troop of Cerberus troopers would have alerted the Quarians much earlier. Tali would have hacked through the mechs and used them against Cerberus. Had Miranda and Jacob massacred their way to Veetor, sooner or later, someone will find out about it. I don't think TIM would like it if his operatives started a war with the entire Migrant Fleet.
As a scientist, ethics and morality is always a real concern... although Cerberus was more a trope about the evilness of corporate science. Besides, having too many resources doesn't always guarantee a successful research. There's a lot of failed R&D out there and billions resources wasted on a lot of research. I imagine Cerberus having this problem too as TIM was too desperate for reaper tech from the Collector's base to recoup his loss.
In ME2, she's a pro-human supremacist and she's not apologetic about it.
wat
Jacob also disapproves of her
Jacob might be a case of sour grapes though. He and Miranda had a brief fling before Mass Effect 2, which Miranda broke off in the end. His relationship with Miranda is complicated by the fact that they slept together, and his voicing disapproval during the Suicide Mission isn't exactly an unbiased assessment of her abilities as a leader.
I can't see a real rational reason for Garrus not wanting Miranda to be in charge beyond the second statement. I mean, my Shepard has already proven himself quite in-line with Cerberus' rules and ideology at this point, so Garrus trusting Shepard over Miranda seems pretty weird. I can see where it would come in, but I can't see how it's logical. About Garrus I mean.
Not at all. Garrus has history with you, not with Miranda. The times he's seen her in action may be limited, the times she's led even more so. Even if you're peachy with Cerberus she's still an unknown. And while he's practical above all else in that he appreciates the new hardware and sees the necessity of the mission I don't think the underlying doubts go away. But he's a turian. He does what needs doing unless there's some glaring reason he should question it.
On the level of actual leadership, I don't think there's a leg to stand on sans this part that we mentioned. A lot of people don't like her (and in my honest opinion, it's an unfair assessment from people who didn't want to give her a chance and are too bone-headed to put the mission above personal dislike). The team isn't really made up of the kind of people who will follow every tactical command as soon as the direction is out of the Commander's mouth. One of the very few down points to the ME2 team. As a commander myself, I'm willing to bet that the issue doesn't entirely lie with Miranda so much as it does with the people voicing their opinion, and I'd inform them as such (I do so proverbially anyway, by putting Miranda in charge of their team). It's not Miranda's job to be well liked or approved of. It's her job to get them to do what they need to do when they need to do it. She does that flawlessly. The dislike for her isn't professional criticism, it's personal disgust. Thus, I'm inclined to tell the problem teammates to unfuck themselves and do as they're told by Miranda and myself.
That might fly in the military but you said it yourself, these people aren't military. I believe no one would cross Shepard, loyal or not but in the heat of battle? I'm not saying someone would put a round in her back. But even a split second hesitation might be fatal.
Who would dislike Miranda on the team though: Jack, Tali... Samara might, though I think she respects her, just doesn't approve of her actions all the time. Otherwise, I think Garrus disapproves of her, though I don't think it's out and out hate like the others. And everyone else either doesn't mind (or care) or approves of her.
Jack hates her. Tali dislikes her. Samara respects her, I'm almost positive. Grunt and Zaeed are likely indifferent. Legion probably wouldn't even understand preference. Mordin likely approves. Jacob admires her. Kasumi... who knows? Neutral probably. I think Thane has a comment as well but I can't remember it. Probably positive. I think Garrus would appreciate her skills objectively but the mission's too important to essentially run with unloyal squadmates which is what would happen if Miranda led the second team. Garrus isn't particularly close to the other squadmates either but he's neutral and has cred both from being on Shepard's team before and Omega. Really he's the choice that makes most sense I think.
Kasumi's sympathetic to her: she said 'my heart goes out to Miranda and her sister, that's a rough situation'. Probably the nicest thing any non-Shepard ever said to her.
Has Thane ever said anything about her??
I can't see a real rational reason for Garrus not wanting Miranda to be in charge beyond the second statement. I mean, my Shepard has already proven himself quite in-line with Cerberus' rules and ideology at this point, so Garrus trusting Shepard over Miranda seems pretty weird. I can see where it would come in, but I can't see how it's logical. About Garrus I mean.
On the level of actual leadership, I don't think there's a leg to stand on sans this part that we mentioned. A lot of people don't like her (and in my honest opinion, it's an unfair assessment from people who didn't want to give her a chance and are too bone-headed to put the mission above personal dislike). The team isn't really made up of the kind of people who will follow every tactical command as soon as the direction is out of the Commander's mouth. One of the very few down points to the ME2 team. As a commander myself, I'm willing to bet that the issue doesn't entirely lie with Miranda so much as it does with the people voicing their opinion, and I'd inform them as such (I do so proverbially anyway, by putting Miranda in charge of their team). It's not Miranda's job to be well liked or approved of. It's her job to get them to do what they need to do when they need to do it. She does that flawlessly. The dislike for her isn't professional criticism, it's personal disgust. Thus, I'm inclined to tell the problem teammates to unfuck themselves and do as they're told by Miranda and myself.
Who would dislike Miranda on the team though: Jack, Tali... Samara might, though I think she respects her, just doesn't approve of her actions all the time. Otherwise, I think Garrus disapproves of her, though I don't think it's out and out hate like the others. And everyone else either doesn't mind (or care) or approves of her.
Garrus is the perma bro with any Shepard. As a result of being a sort of protege, his own morality/ideology is always superseded when Shepard is in the picture. It isn't logical, but that's just who he is as a person. It's fairly obvious he doesn't approve of Miranda, either way.
As for Miranda's leadership ability, well I'm a bit on the fence with that one. Her pre-Cerberus history isn't really elaborated upon, so it is hard to judge on any training alone. There's nothing to suggest that she outright lacks leadership, but then again the only in game support for her ability is the Lazarus Project, which, while highly successful, is not really all that comparable to the Suicide Mission. A more apt example would be her spat with Maya Brooks in Foundation, which resulted in her team getting wiped out and Maya escaping. In fairness, it was a result of an unforeseen situation that would have been difficult to prepare against, so this isn't much different than what happens to Garrus's Omega squad, and not comparable to say, Tali on Freedom's Progress, where her failure to discipline Prazza and the ensuing carnage was definitely her own fault.
I think Miranda can make a good leader, but her style is definitely authoritarian. One could make the argument that she has sufficient bearing, confidence and resilience, but equally seems to be lacking in the developmental and team building aspects of subordinates (example: she argues to ignore continuing to build the team after the Collectors abduct the non-essential crew, no matter how bad the state of the squad's morale is, though one could argue this is game mechanics). It could be going both ways, with the certain team members disliking her for irrational reasons, and her having little empathy for their concerns, but ultimately with her being the Superior solving that problem or failing to is more on her shoulders than theirs.
Overall, IMO she would make a great organizational or strategic leader (as evidenced by Lazarus), because those are less about personal relations, but I think as a direct leader she is probably not quite as apt. By no means incompetent, but similar to a Ruthless Shepard in not caring as much for potential consequences to the team. Simply using all stick and no carrot when you've a team member who disagrees with you isn't always the most efficient strategy. The fact that she actively criticizes subordinates for personal reasons not related to performance on certain occasions doesn't help (Tali-racist volus spat and Jack fight being examples), though she is hardly alone in this among the supposed "leader" characters (Jacob's irrational distrust of Thane for instance).
However, I do agree that most in game dislike of her by subordinates seems more based on personal reasons than any actual concerns about her competence, and they are also at fault for not being able to put such concerns aside once they sign on for the mission.
It was pretty obvious in ME2 Tali wasn't fond of Miranda. Apparently BW had to really spell it out and melodramatize for some folks to catch on...
Kasumi's sympathetic to her: she said 'my heart goes out to Miranda and her sister, that's a rough situation'. Probably the nicest thing any non-Shepard ever said to her.
Has Thane ever said anything about her??
I meant professionally, accepting her in a leadership role. Though I guess that comment would seem point in a favorable direction. Empathy does generally tend to make people more open.
As for Thane I think you can ask him about Miranda and Jacob specifically, just like with Samara.
Jacob might be a case of sour grapes though. He and Miranda had a brief fling before Mass Effect 2, which Miranda broke off in the end. His relationship with Miranda is complicated by the fact that they slept together, and his voicing disapproval during the Suicide Mission isn't exactly an unbiased assessment of her abilities as a leader.
There's also the little matter of her having forwarded the info to Jacob about the distress beacon for the Hugo Gernsback. One is left to wonder about her real motives for doing that. That TIM needed to converse with her about the matter does not exactly inspire confidence in her ability to effectively lead Jacob.
She tells you her real motives. She had a promise to keep. Not being romantically involved does not mean he means nothing to her.
TIM wasn't impressed by the breach of protocols. I doubt he cares what Miranda feels for Jacob or vice versa, unless the time comes to take advantage of that for some reason.
On Freedom's Progress, even without Shepard, a troop of Cerberus troopers would have alerted the Quarians much earlier. Tali would have hacked through the mechs and used them against Cerberus. Had Miranda and Jacob massacred their way to Veetor, sooner or later, someone will find out about it. I don't think TIM would like it if his operatives started a war with the entire Migrant Fleet.
How? If they arrived at the same time as they do in the game? It'd be the same effect, with more people to back them (Miranda and Jacob up). And if Tali could hack into the mechs and used them against Cerberus, then why didn't she do it in the first place in the game? Quit fan-wanking. Had Miranda and Jacob massacred their way to Veetor, then it's likely that Cerberus would have either covered up the incident, made it look as though they were killed with whatever had been taking human colonies, or even made it look like it was the Quarians who were attacking the human colonies. And any one of those options would easily give Cerberus anonymity. No one would know that they were involved.
As a scientist, ethics and morality is always a real concern... although Cerberus was more a trope about the evilness of corporate science. Besides, having too many resources doesn't always guarantee a successful research. There's a lot of failed R&D out there and billions resources wasted on a lot of research. I imagine Cerberus having this problem too as TIM was too desperate for reaper tech from the Collector's base to recoup his loss.
The thing is, I do question the necessity of ethics and morality in science, in so far as practical considerations go. I have no problem at all harming living beings against their will. It's not something I particularly enjoy, but then again, it's not something I detest either. Problems and solutions. If I have a problem that requires a specific solution of somebody dead or maimed, or if it is the most efficient solution with the benefit of a better payout, said person will be dead or maimed, no problem and no guilt on my end. There's really no such thing as 'too many resources' especially if you know how to use them or if you waste them. And the failed R&D projects have a lot more issues than just resources. There's allocation, research (a given, but you'd be surprised how little research some researchers do), technological limitations, time considerations, funding (billions might seem like a lot, but it can be quite minute against certain scales of projects), power, politics, and of course, ethical and moral considerations to research.
I don't think TIM really had that issue at all, considering his project (at least in my game) was successful beyond his wildest dreams. Everything payed out, and everything worked.
Tali doesn't hate Miranda but isn't keen on her because Miranda was once a top-tier Cerberus Cheerleader. Given what Quarians often think of Cerberus, and how much of a Quarian patriot Tali is, it shouldn't be surprising that they don't see eye-to-eye. Then there's the context that if you play as ManShep, Miranda and Tali both have a thing for the Commander and that's another source of conflict. Tali also has a short fuse with people who she thinks are rude, and Miranda definitely gets bitchy sometimes.
I'm still wondering where this spawned from:
In ME2, she's a pro-human supremacist and she's not apologetic about it.
I'm still wondering where this spawned from:
It's baseless. Working for Cerberus doesn't make anyone a supremacist. The Alliance is pro-human and there are supremacists in the Alliance. Does that make everyone in the Alliance a supremacist, too? Of course not. It's a sweeping generalization.
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