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[themikefest]

Rupert Gardner. I miss that guy and his calamari gumbo

[wright1978]

It's baseless. Working for Cerberus doesn't make anyone a supremacist. The Alliance is pro-human and there are supremacists in the Alliance. Does that make everyone in the Alliance a supremacist, too? Of course not. It's a sweeping generalization.

 

Yeah Miranda admires the Salarian STG and wants humanity to have something similar through Cerberus.

[wright1978]

It's true... 

 

 

However, it's not a great goal imo. It's good that she can admire a Salarian, but STG tries to play god and engages in uplift projects. Ultimately led them down a bad path, and led Illusive Man down an even worse path. I wonder how she thinks about it all in ME3 (would be nice if we actually got to talk to her about more things). Mordin and Padok seem to want to move away from that themselves. What's that line Padok Wiks had.. "We should let the evolutionary process take it's course, not galactic politics" (I'm paraphrasing I think). I think Shepard might've inadvertently changed some of her views on this stuff, just because he exceeded her capabilities, and came from nothing.

 

Personally i think it is a great goal. I've never seen any hint of Mordin moving away from his views regarding STG. Equally i don't see how Shephard would have changed her views on the need, if anything he/she is a sign of the opposite. My Shephard very much agrees on the need for such groups.

[God]

It's true... 

 

 

However, it's not a great goal imo. It's good that she can admire a Salarian, but STG tries to play god and engages in uplift projects. Ultimately led them down a bad path, and led Illusive Man down an even worse path. Mordin and Padok seem to want to move away from that themselves. What's that line Padok Wiks had.. "We should let the evolutionary process take it's course, not galactic politics" (I'm paraphrasing I think). I think Shepard might've inadvertently changed some of her views on this stuff, just because he/she was "great", and came from nothing.

 

I disagree with the notion that playing god is a bad thing. Personally, I think functional godhood is what we should be aspiring too. The ability to manipulate and rewrite reality for our own edification, satisfaction, and progeny. 

 

As technologically sufficient beings, we have the capability to completely bypass, augment, and disregard natural evolution if we want to. And I'm saying that with the context of modern times as well. You're arguing that naturalism (or the natural state) is inherently better, which I honestly think you would have a difficult time arguing rationally for.

 

If we have the ability to overcome the natural evolutionary processes, then we should do it. If we so choose, we can leave some instances up to nature, but I don't think the Krogan are one of those. 

 

No goal is more noble than the search for truth and understanding.

[God]

Kind of goes against why she admires Shepard though. "You were great before any of this." There's a subtext there about humanity pushing through because of badassery, even from humble origins (rather than uplift).

 

And why I think the Renegade romance is best. "You jealous?"

 

I don't see how it goes against why she admires him in that aspect at all. Shepard was great before, and he's been made even greater by Cerberus and Miranda.

 

We are one of the races that pushed through because we learned restraint. We were superior via evolution, and we survived long enough to wrest ourselves beyond the necessity and demands of natural evolution to a state where we can now more or less evolve at will if we so choose. We have the capacity to do this now with other races. Personally, I'm against uplift not for naturalist reasons, but for competition's sake: I'd rather have less aliens to compete with.

[Quarian Master Race]

I disagree with the notion that playing god is a bad thing.

Really, God? Thanks for clarifying that one 

[CrutchCricket]

The problem with playing god is that more often than not, you **** it up.
 
So we have a heretic/true believer situation here.
 
Heretics say the only winning move is not to play.
 
I say if you're gonna do it, do it right.
 

[fhs33721]

The problem with playing god is that more often than not, you **** it up.
 
So we have a heretic/true believer situation here.
 
Heretics say the only winning move is not to play.
 
I say if you're gonna do it, do it right.
 

This isn't even Harbinger. That Reaper has a tentacle right beneath his eyes unlike Haringer. Harbinger just tricked a fellow Reaper into wearing yellow contact lenses and doing all his work while he's slacking off somewhere else.

And control-Shepard even fell for it. S/he really needs to  slow down with the cocktails and get her/his sh*t together.

[God]

I've got little else to do. I'm here, in Baghdad, sipping on some water in an air conditioned tent, with my lap-top to pass the time. I have an Xbox 360, but it's not working online right now. Netflix only gets me so far, as does Steam.

[CrutchCricket]

Excuse me while I ignore the "God" who thinks it's OK to play God.

Pfft. What else would he do? What's the point of godhood if you have to be serious?

[FlyingSquirrel]

I'm still curious as to why Garrus would disapprove. He and Miranda don't ever interact at all, and he never gives an opinion on her. If anything, he'd admire her for her work ethic. It's almost hand-in-hand with his. They both dislike the red tape and bureaucracy, and they both take the most direct route to accomplishing their mission.

 

I think it's partly that Miranda becomes a proxy for some of the crew's attitudes towards Cerberus. She comes off as more of a loyalist and a true believer compared to Jacob, whose attitude is more akin to that of a Paragon Shepard, i.e. "I'll use Cerberus's resources to do something good, but I don't trust them for a second." So Miranda is going to be the one to bear the brunt of any suspicions about Cerberus. 

 

And while Garrus has a ruthless side, I doubt he'd condone or participate in things like the rachni/husk/creeper experiments or the murder of an Alliance Admiral that we saw from Cerberus in ME1. Now, maybe Miranda wasn't personally involved in any of that either, but she seems to know something about it and will vocally defend Cerberus in general. Given that, I think it's understandable that some of them have reservations about Miranda as a squad leader - they may think she'd be too quick to sacrifice them in combat if it seemed expedient.

[Mr Plow]

lets not beat about the bush....at the heart of it, she and others are jealous of Miranda's...ahem....assets

[Reorte]

 

And while Garrus has a ruthless side, I doubt he'd condone or participate in things like the rachni/husk/creeper experiments or the murder of an Alliance Admiral that we saw from Cerberus in ME1. Now, maybe Miranda wasn't personally involved in any of that either, but she seems to know something about it and will vocally defend Cerberus in general. Given that, I think it's understandable that some of them have reservations about Miranda as a squad leader - they may think she'd be too quick to sacrifice them in combat if it seemed expedient.

On the other hand he would respect them for their action against the Collectors - look at what Jacob says about Cerberus near the start of ME2 (before Freedom's Progress IIRC)  about how they don't commission reports and so on, they just get on with it. That sounds right up Garrus' street.

[God]

lets not beat about the bush....at the heart of it, she and others are jealous of Miranda's...ahem....assets

 

You got it.

 

Yep. That's totally it. 

 

Sarcasm aside, I do think that Tali is a relatively insecure person, and Miranda is obviously the type of person who makes her... not necessarily self-conscious or inadequate, but more aware of her own flaws. Miranda is also the type to not be tolerant of inadequacies in others.

[Massa FX]

... is it that Tali doesn't like that hoity toity, I'm superior to you attitude? That's not jealousy or insecurity, that's human in nature (Tali is sometimes more human natured than Shepard, IMO). No-one likes to be sneered at or dismissed by their co-workers or superiors.

 

Shepard was able to ignore it, step over it, get over it easily because Shep's had to deal with that type of BS throughout her career in the Alliance. Miranda is just one of many screwed up people believing in their own hype. (At least for most of ME2) Tali lacks that Alliance experience and Jack does too. I think the male crewmembers just enjoyed staring at her arse... and other parts. They never really listened to what she said.

[God]

Except that Miranda is superior to Tali. In just about every characteristic. Miranda never sneers at or dismisses Tali, period, so that is entirely false. If Tali perceives that, then she's way off. I'm much more inclined to go with Miranda (unconsciously) outlining Tali's own faults and issues, particularly where their father was involved. 

 

Probably the same vibe I give off to people here as what you're describing. I'm not sneering at or dismissing people, I'm just not one to really indulge mediocrity. If you want to think its personal, then go ahead. 

 

Again, you're way off: being in the military is where you face this attitude. Nobodies going to hold your hand, and they're going to be quick and decisive in pointing out your own shortcomings. It's nothing personal, but we see an issue, we tell you of said issue, and we expect you to nut up and correct it. Miranda is the same. If Tali can't deal with that, then it's her own problem. As well, "believing in her own hype"... what? Miranda makes it pretty clear that she doesn't do this. She's objective about it: She knows what she is and what she's capable of. It's called confidence: to people lacking it, I can see where they might think that she's egotistical, but she's really not. It'd be disingenuous of Tali to inflect a sense of snobbiness and egotism onto Miranda just because she is insecure enough to not have the same self-respect as Miranda. And Miranda makes it clear that she's still human, and that she still makes mistakes, as early as the first conversation with her on the Normandy. She's objective with her capabilities and talents. She knows she's far more capable than most people even think about being, but she still knows that errors and mistakes happen. Sure, she prides herself on not making mistakes, partly out of not wanting to harm her own pride, but also because she recognizes the consequences that might arise when someone in her position makes a mistake.

 

It's not that Tali lacks an experience with BS, it's that she lacks enough self-confidence and security to not feel pressured or victimized when brought close to someone who has plenty of self-confidence and security. Jack meanwhile is has a highly impulsive and nigh-narcissistic (and borderline psychotic) character, and this is only exacerbated when in the presence of Cerberus personnel, particularly Miranda, who as the highest ranking full member of Cerberus on board, is the face of everything Jack hates about Cerberus.

 

And if you're going to resort to more sexist language and degradations of both Miranda and other male characters (as well as what I suspect to be towards male players themselves), then you're just digging a hole I'd rather leave unbroken. That's not really fair to anyone involved really.

[o Ventus]

 

Shepard was able to ignore it, step over it, get over it easily because Shep's had to deal with that type of BS throughout her career in the Alliance. Miranda is just one of many screwed up people believing in their own hype. (At least for most of ME2) Tali lacks that Alliance experience and Jack does too. I think the male crewmembers just enjoyed staring at her arse... and other parts. They never really listened to what she said.

Miranda might hype herself up, but she fully acknowledges that she's not the best at everything (and she never props herself up as the pinnacle of anything). That's one of the major themes in her interactions. Despite all of her enhancements, she's still only human.

 

In case the subtext wasn't subtle enough, she literally, flat-out states it in ME3 when she says "nobody's perfect".

[X Equestris]

It's baseless. Working for Cerberus doesn't make anyone a supremacist. The Alliance is pro-human and there are supremacists in the Alliance. Does that make everyone in the Alliance a supremacist, too? Of course not. It's a sweeping generalization.

Some people around here have a thing for sweeping generalizations.