36 réponses à ce sujet

[Roseweave]

It's joked about a lot in game, but there are one or two indications that she may have been involved in the trade. It seems like something she'd do if only for the thrill of it, and she certainly wouldn't consider herself "above" it.

In particular the conversation between her and Aveline and the women she's "Shepherding"... it sounds like she's teaching the lower class sex workers to fend for themselves. How did she come to be involved with them, and is she helping them from a position of experience? 

I would respect Isabela even more if she was because of how poorly sex workers tend to be treated in video games. 

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

Title is slightly misleading. The title seems to ask if she's promiscuous, while your post seems to be asking if she was a prostitute at some point in her past.

 

Either way, Isabela is awesome. I have nothing further to add.

[Roseweave]

I tend to use Harlot because it seems appropriately old timey. Harlot is another word for sex worker.

For reference, most of the Sex Workers I know(and I know A LOT of sex workers) don't like the term "prostitute". it's not even a reclaimed slur, they'll use the word ****** pretty freely, but not prostitute. It's too synonymous with the abusive "Rescue" industry and negative depictions of sex work. 

[TEWR]

Isabela was a victim of abuse by her husband, sold to him as a child. For years she was alone, never with someone that cared about her, who treated her like she was worth something. Her mother got rid of her, her husband was just a sexually abusive dick, and then Zevran killed him, and she was free to do what she wanted for the first time in her life. So she took to piracy and the life therein.

 

The reason why she's teaching them to fend for themselves is because she's had to fend for herself for so long, and the world doesn't look kindly on women. She's selfish as a means to survive, a person who betrays before she can be betrayed. She does this because she has such low self-esteem from her years of abuse that she feels she's worthless, that people won't care about her, that they'll just use her. So she keeps them at arm's length. She feels that these women need to be able to look after themselves, because no one else will. 

 

She's not teaching them because she was a sex worker. She's teaching them because she's been a victim of abuse when she was married to Luis years ago.

 

All of that makes her growth more poignant to me, if you show her you care about her.

[thats1evildude]

No, she's a pirate. A promiscuous pirate, but a pirate all the same.

[Roseweave]

I have a headcanon that the reason you see Isabela walking out of Ander's clinic with a presumed STD is actually because she often solicits the services of lowtown women of negotiable pleasure, but pays them the same rate as the Blooming Rose ones. She puts herself at greater risk because she doesn't want to patronise them by just dumping money on them and walking away, she wants to make them feel special. I get the feeling she mainly likes being in the Blooming Rose for the atmosphere, because the women are well looked after and she befriends them.

[andy6915]

I have a headcanon that the reason you see Isabela walking out of Ander's clinic with a presumed STD is actually because she often solicits the services of lowtown women of negotiable pleasure, but pays them the same rate as the Blooming Rose ones. She puts herself at greater risk because she doesn't want to patronise them by just dumping money on them and walking away, she wants to make them feel special. I get the feeling she mainly likes being in the Blooming Rose for the atmosphere, because the women are well looked after and she befriends them.

 

No, she got that one from having sex with Seneschal's tax collector to keep him off of Fenris' back. This scene (video) occurs when you visit Fenris in act 2, and the Anders one occurs around the same time.

 

[calvinien]

She talks about having standing orders at the rose so I think not. I doubt isabela would be interested in a job that doens't let her pick who she sleeps with.

 

Though it is implied she slept with the seneschal as a bribe to get him to stop sending tax collectors at fenris.

[Roseweave]

No, she got that one from having sex with Seneschal's tax collector to keep him off of Fenris' back. This scene (video) occurs when you visit Fenris in act 2, and the Anders one occurs around the same time.

 

So she did technically sleep with someone for money  

Good enough.

[Obadiah]

I think Isabella is a pirate, and a thief - that's basically what Aveline's conversation with her about her "guidance" was.

I can't picture Isabella just outright training women to go mug people for a living, but perhaps stealing as some sort of retribution? Maybe pick-pocketing?

[Junebug]

 

 

 

As bad as some of her disapproval/approval reactions are, she herself is an amazing woman. Isabela's actions are usually justified because she's a pirate and pirates don't give a f*ck but Bioware gave her so much more depth than that. She's endured so much and I think a lot of people fail to realize that so good on you.

[Best of the Best]

I hated her. One of the worst characters in gaming history

[Cyrus Amell]

I understood where her character was coming from, and honestly I was never bothered by her lifestyle or choices. Then again, she herself says that she had "Fewer [lovers] than some think." There is also no evidence that she cheats on Hawke when they are in a relationship, even deferring to his or her opinion on sleeping or not sleeping with Zevran (and avoiding certain sailors who have certain diseases). As for the original post, I imagine that Isabella just got bored that Bioware was not doing anything with her character until the end of Act 2 and decided to use her leadership skills for some good. I am, however, pretty sure that she would not actually engage in "the trade" herself because 1. She has standards (shoots down people left and right) and 2. She does not seem to need the money (probably gets enough to buy a ship playing Diamond Back with Varric). 

 

 

 

Though it is implied she slept with the seneschal as a bribe to get him to stop sending tax collectors at fenris.

 

 

I'm pretty sure that the full story would involve knives and knees to certain locations. I imagine it would be childs play for her to get a man naked, knock him out, tie him a bed post and then give him a good reason to not bother Fenris (with her clothes on). She also said it was the Seneschal's tax collector, not the man himself. The Seneschal has... other tastes. 

[Roseweave]

Are you implying sex workers don't have standards though?

Like idk. I just don't see her as having that kind of snooty attitude and at some point she probably did engage in it to support herself. A lot of women do, and there's no shame in it.

[turuzzusapatuttu]

Title is slightly misleading. The title seems to ask if she's promiscuous, while your post seems to be asking if she was a prostitute at some point in her past.

 

Either way, Isabela is awesome. I have nothing further to add.

 

 

I hated her. One of the worst characters in gaming history

 

[Drasca]

No, she's a pirate. A promiscuous pirate, but a pirate all the same.

 

"Do what you want, because a pirate is free!"

https://youtu.be/x3Y7d0xNHjg?t=1m48s

[Cyrus Amell]

Like idk. I just don't see her as having that kind of snooty attitude and at some point she probably did engage in it to support herself. A lot of women do, and there's no shame in it.

 

She was a pirate, that what she did - that is how she supported herself. Stealing other people's stuff (like your typical rpg character). After her husband made her have sex with his friends I don't think she would go down that path again. She has alluded to having been in more serious relationships that she broke off, and maybe she even mooched off her lovers at times (which is normal) but I would hardly equate that to straight up turning tricks to get by. She is basically a female Jack Sparrow, somehow she got by while learning to fight until the story started.    

 

I did not mean to insult sex workers, I just mean to say that Isabella seems to approach sex as a sport or an indulgence (always on top, whipped cream, etc). We do get a bit of dialogue from her in the quest "On the Loose" along the lines of "I do just fine whoring myself out without your help, thanks" if you suggest she bed Emile but I perceived that with an ironic twist to her saying "Yes I like to sleep around but I don't need your help to do it."

[Captain Wiseass]

Some kind? Try the best kind.

[springacres]

I think she's what 19th-century American social reformers would refer to as a "charity case" - she definitely doesn't seem to be in it for the money, she just wants to have fun.

[Roseweave]

Like if we have an actual line of dialogue suggesting she does it I don't see why there needs to be so much burden of proof. This reminds me of having to "prove" that characters are queer as some people will deny it to the bitter end(Korrasami comes to mind). 

There's a world of difference between what happened with her husband and engaging in some form of sex work. People are still making connections between abuse. For some women, sex work can be quite liberating. It's saying "you don't get to touch me unless you pay". 

I don't think she immediately became a pirate, either. She probably needed money to support herself.

[andy6915]

Like if we have an actual line of dialogue suggesting she does it I don't see why there needs to be so much burden of proof. This reminds me of having to "prove" that characters are queer as some people will deny it to the bitter end(Korrasami comes to mind). 

There's a world of difference between what happened with her husband and engaging in some form of sex work. People are still making connections between abuse. For some women, sex work can be quite liberating. It's saying "you don't get to touch me unless you pay". 

I don't think she immediately became a pirate, either. She probably needed money to support herself.

 

I was staying out of this, but enough. She is not a prostitute, period. Confirmed by the game itself.

 

• Aveline: Isabela. That... demonstration you put on two nights ago in the Viscount's Keep.
• Isabela: Ooh. Are you going to arrest me, Captain?
• Aveline: No. You did that on purpose and I will not be baited.
• Isabela: Oh, come on!
• Aveline: I will also no longer judge you for your... choices. I will make a concerted attempt to be understanding.
• Isabela: What? Does this mean you'll no longer call me a wh0re?
• Aveline: As you so rightly pointed out, whores accept gold for services rendered. You do not.
• Isabela: But...
• Aveline: Poxy tart. (Laughs) Had you there.

[Roseweave]

But that contradicts the above quote. Isabela still protests what she's saying. I can see how some people might read the "but" as being "but I like when you call me a wh0re!" but that doesn't fit with the tone of the her question before it where she's blasé about it.

It's more like this is what happens -

Isabela gets drunk and starts doing some busting some showgirl moves trying to pick up some of the guards in the keep. 

Aveline breaks up the proceedings and calls her a wh0re as usual.

Isabela points out that she wasn't taking money from them. Whores accept gold for services rendered, etc.

Aveline calls her out on this later, knowing full well from Isabela's earlier remarks, and her associations with her women that she has done exactly that. She then goes onto call her a tart which in the UK is more synonymous with the concept of a "prostitute" than "******" is. It's also a double play on the fact that EVERYONE in the party "wh0res" themselves one way or another, as they do indeed accept gold for "Services rendered" being heroes for hire, mercenaries etc. it's one of Dragon Age's many meta-jokes. Aveline is baiting Isabela, just like Isabela baited her. 

And there's always the possibility that she is not an actual wh0re as far as Aveline knows. But again, why would she call her a tart? In another dialogue, she refers to her as a strumpet. Unfortunately, most words for "prostitute" can also be used to refer to a loose woman. This is largely because in the time period Dragon Age emulates, there wasn't necessarily a distinction. Women were limited in opportunities and loose women would have been seen as particularly lowly. 

From Othello -
 

OTHELLO

Are you not a strumpet?

OTHELLO

So you’re saying you’re not a ******?

  DESDEMONA

No, as I am a Christian.

If to preserve this vessel for my lord

From any other foul unlawful touch

Be not to be a strumpet, I am none.

DESDEMONA

No, I’m as honest as I am Christian. If only letting my husband touch my body means I’m not a ******, I’m not a ******.

90 OTHELLO

What, not a ******?

OTHELLO

What, you’re not a ******?

  DESDEMONA

  No, as I shall be saved.

DESDEMONA

No, I swear it.

  OTHELLO

Is ’t possible?

OTHELLO

Is that possible?

  DESDEMONA

Oh, heaven forgive us!

DESDEMONA

Oh, heaven help us!

95
  OTHELLO

I cry you mercy, then,

I took you for that cunning ****** of Venice

That married with Othello.—You, mistress,

That have the office opposite to Saint Peter

And keep the gate of hell!

As you can see the words are used interchangeably. During this passage, he throws coins at her. 

I know some of this terminology isn't familiar to Americans, but really... 

I don't understand why people are so defensive about this. 

[Roseweave]

Also the wandering harlot table from D&D 1st Ed, which was a real thing:

http://www.toplessro...random_harl.php

[andy6915]

But that contradicts the above quote. Isabela still protests what she's saying. I can see how some people might read the "but" as being "but I like when you call me a wh0re!" but that doesn't fit with the tone of the her question before it where she's blasé about it.

It's more like this is what happens -

Isabela gets drunk and starts doing some busting some showgirl moves trying to pick up some of the guards in the keep. 

Aveline breaks up the proceedings and calls her a wh0re as usual.

Isabela points out that she wasn't taking money from them. Whores accept gold for services rendered, etc.

Aveline calls her out on this later, knowing full well from Isabela's earlier remarks, and her associations with her women that she has done exactly that. She then goes onto call her a tart which in the UK is more synonymous with the concept of a "prostitute" than "******" is. It's also a double play on the fact that EVERYONE in the party "wh0res" themselves one way or another, as they do indeed accept gold for "Services rendered" being heroes for hire, mercenaries etc. it's one of Dragon Age's many meta-jokes. Aveline is baiting Isabela, just like Isabela baited her. 

And there's always the possibility that she is not an actual wh0re as far as Aveline knows. But again, why would she call her a tart? In another dialogue, she refers to her as a strumpet. Unfortunately, most words for "prostitute" can also be used to refer to a loose woman. This is largely because in the time period Dragon Age emulates, there wasn't necessarily a distinction. Women were limited in opportunities and loose women would have been seen as particularly lowly. 

From Othello -
 

OTHELLO

Are you not a strumpet?

OTHELLO

So you’re saying you’re not a ******?

  DESDEMONA

No, as I am a Christian.

If to preserve this vessel for my lord

From any other foul unlawful touch

Be not to be a strumpet, I am none.

DESDEMONA

No, I’m as honest as I am Christian. If only letting my husband touch my body means I’m not a ******, I’m not a ******.

90 OTHELLO

What, not a ******?

OTHELLO

What, you’re not a ******?

  DESDEMONA

  No, as I shall be saved.

DESDEMONA

No, I swear it.

  OTHELLO

Is ’t possible?

OTHELLO

Is that possible?

  DESDEMONA

Oh, heaven forgive us!

DESDEMONA

Oh, heaven help us!

95
  OTHELLO

I cry you mercy, then,

I took you for that cunning ****** of Venice

That married with Othello.—You, mistress,

That have the office opposite to Saint Peter

And keep the gate of hell!

As you can see the words are used interchangeably. During this passage, he throws coins at her. 

I know some of this terminology isn't familiar to Americans, but really... 

I don't understand why people are so defensive about this. 

 

I'm defensive because you're making up stuff about a character that is blatantly false. You don't get that she's a $lut, not a wh0re. There's a difference. She does it for fun, not for any monetary benefit. People use wh0re all the time for women who sleep around a lot, interchangeably with the word $lut. Isabella and Aveline do the same thing.

 

Really damn tired of the auto censor.

[Roseweave]

But there are lines of dialogue which indicate otherwise? Like when she literally refers to herself as "Whoring" herself out? Or the dialogue with Aveline which is clearly baiting her into admitting past deeds? And we know she has "women" who are sex workers of some description, and it's very rare sex workers accept that kind of shepherding from someone who hasn't done it themselves. For example most Madams were harlots before they became Madams. It's what they do when they retire.

I don't see why the burden of proof needs to be against me here. It's a valid reading of her character and doesn't degrade her in the slightest. How do you think she discovered brothels in the first place?