83 réponses à ce sujet

[Jhelzei]

After reading in more detail how mage circles are run, I'm really confused how they are supposed to control the mage "threat". Mages are effectively imprisoned in the circle, encouraged to *increase* their skills through research, then given no outlet for their power. Furthermore, they are expected to remain celibate. Having a bunch of horny, restless and purposeless mages all cooped up in one place seems like a powder keg, templar abilities or no. I wouldn't think such a system would last more than a few years, much less millenia. Any thoughts?

[Jawzzus]

Viviene explains it pretty well, and even her and Wynne said that mages have sex with each other, hell Wynne had a kid in the circle.  Some circles are bad, like kirkwall, but most of them were good, the templars did their job and didn't treat mages bad and it was the only place they could be with others of their kind without ridicule, anger, or suspicion being thrown at them.

[Lumix19]

Basically it stems from the fact that mages are dangerous. That said recently the Circle hasn't successfully functioned the way it was intended which was to keep mages and the common populace safe, instead it has bred rebellion and violence. That doesn't mean Circles themselves are a bad idea, just that they might need to change so as to fulfil their original objective.

[SomeUsername]

You can either have the Circles, or endanger the normal population outside the Circles for the sake of life fairness. 

[jgwhiteus]

The training is supposed to help them control their powers and avoid possession by demons, not necessarily hone them into weapons, though I guess that would happen as a natural byproduct of training. But many mages don't have the aptitude or inclination to fight in combat, and prefer to focus on healing / research, etc. (like Researcher Minaeve). In DA:O with the mage origin, more senior mages who had passed their Harrowing were allowed to leave to assist King Cailan's army against the Darkspawn, so presumably there is a sanctioned outlet for their powers in combat even if they don't have a regular "mage batallion" or anything.

 

On relationships, I think it's one of the Enchanters (Ellandra?) who says that templar-mage relations in the Circles are discouraged, because the templars are supposed to look over and possibly neutralize mages, but that such relationships happen anyway, and mage-mage relationships definitely happen as mentioned by Wynne, etc.

 

But yeah, I think treating the Circles as a prison was always going to be a failure, because above all a lot of the mages desired freedom and the ability to live their own lives, and once they'd developed abilities and seen others living in freedom it would chafe against them to be under the control of the Chantry. Also, once they'd reached a certain age and skill level continuing to treat them like novices susceptible to demonic possession doesn't make sense anymore.

[KaiserShep]

In principle, it's a good idea to have a place where mages can hone their abilities in relative safety, but the fact that they're run like prisons where most if not all of their occupants are sentenced to life before adolescence makes it doomed to failure.

[Inex]

Basically it stems from the fact that mages are dangerous. That said recently the Circle hasn't successfully functioned the way it was intended which was to keep mages and the common populace safe, instead it has bred rebellion and violence. That doesn't mean Circles themselves are a bad idea, just that they might need to change so as to fulfil their original objective.

 

In principle, it's a good idea to have a place where mages can hone their abilities in relative safety, but the fact that they're run like prisons where most if not all of their occupants are sentenced to life before adolescence makes it doomed to failure.

 

I agree with both posts. Eventually there will be another war for the same reasons the first one started, unless a better solution is found, or unless the circles change.

[berelinde]

The only reason it worked for as long as it did was because most mages were willing to buy into it. They grew up hearing how the Circle was the only place they could live, and that literally any other way of life was an abhorrence to the Maker. The fact that mages who disagreed with that usually turned up lobotomized or dead (if they turned up at all) probably did much to squash dissent... at least until the dissenters outnumbered the conformists and the Circles fell. But for the most part, mages are people like everyone else, and they have the same ambitions and motivations that everyone else has. Most people are not disobedient by nature. The Circle has (or had) a reward system where well-behaved mages were allowed additional privileges, like field trips outside the Circle or remote postings as court mages. People will put up with an awful lot, especially if they sincerely believe that they are obeying their religion in the process.

 

Of course, once the rewards go away and once seemingly obedient mages begin receiving punishments that were formerly reserved for the worst transgressors, all that changes.

 

This is an objective explanation of human behavior. It doesn't even begin to address whether it's ethical to imprison people based on their potential rather than their actions, but the OP asked for an explanation as to how it could have lasted as long as it did, not whether it was ethical or not.

[Forsythia77]

Based on what I've seen of Thedas, there are plenty of non-magical people who are also dangerous.  Robbing, stabbing and looting just for the sake of robbing, stabbing and looting  Yet, they don't put non-magical people in non-magical prisons until AFTER they do the robbing, stabbing and looting.  Seems to be putting the cart before the horse, as it were. 

[berelinde]

Based on what I've seen of Thedas, there are plenty of non-magical people who are also dangerous.  Robbing, stabbing and looting just for the sake of robbing, stabbing and looting  Yet, they don't put non-magical people in non-magical prisons until AFTER they do the robbing, stabbing and looting.  Seems to be putting the cart before the horse, as it were. 

Well, yeah. You're absolutely right, and most people reading this probably agree. I do.

 

But Thedas is a bit different. They've been segregating and imprisoning mages for nine hundred years, and most people (non-mages and mages alike) are conditioned to believe that's the way it should be. There are a few people who disagree, but often times, they're perceived as being eccentric and irrational if they aren't mages, or as dangerous revolutionaries if they are. They're fighting a lot of historical prejudice.

[Forsythia77]

Well, yeah. You're absolutely right, and most people reading this probably agree. I do.

 

But Thedas is a bit different. They've been segregating and imprisoning mages for nine hundred years, and most people (non-mages and mages alike) are conditioned to believe that's the way it should be. There are a few people who disagree, but often times, they're perceived as being eccentric and irrational if they aren't mages, or as dangerous revolutionaries if they are. They're fighting a lot of historical prejudice.

 

Yes, they have 1000 years of overcorrecting that they are dealing with.  I don't disagree with that at all.  But in my mind, someone took hold of the reigns and pulled hard in the other direction without much critical thought on the implications that going so far in the opposite direction would have for the future.  But in the brainstorming meetings where the PTB (powers that be) said "What are we gonna do about the mages, yo?"  I feel like  no one even brought up the possibility that eventually crap could or would hit the fan.  If it was brought up in the brainstorming meeting, was it ignored?  Was there a back up plan? 

 

Also, clearly I've been too too many brainstorming meetings in IRL - too many people have ideas on how to fix "the problem" but don't explore the implications of the fix. 

[berelinde]

LOL! I feel you, Forsythia77, especially when the only result of said brainstorming session is a tower of empty pizza boxes.

 

But to be honest, I don't think anybody ever asked that.

 

The problem has *always* been that the people responsible for the mages' fate - and for their future - are not the ones who have to live with the consequences. Not directly. Or maybe it would be more accurate to say "not anymore."

 

Years ago, the College of Enchanters set policy for the Circles. They represented the five fraternities and provided the Circles with a means of communicating across Thedas. They were deciding their own fate, and they were held accountable for incidents. Over time, their authority became diluted. I can't point to a date and say "It happened then," and neither can anyone else. They were the ones who agreed to form the Circles in the first place as a way to escape the tedium of living in the chantries and lighting lamps and dusting rafters all day. It's important to note that they didn't sign over their freedom as much as escape relentless oversight. The templars were supposed to sit back and watch, and let them get on with their lessons. That worked out better in some Circles than others.

 

And then, sometime in 9:38 Dragon, the College of Enchanters held a vote to decide if they should remain affiliated with the Chantry or split off and do their own thing. The College voted to remain with the Chantry (Wynne cast the tie-breaking vote), but the Chantry flipped its sheets over the fact that they thought that they could do it in the first place. So, they did away with the College of Enchanters, and assumed direct control of the Circles. From that point on, the people with the authority were no longer the ones who had to live with the consequences. None of the clerics had ever lived in a Circle before. They didn't have the first clue about what would happen.

 

So yeah, the PTB misplaced a decimal point when performing the theoretical calculations and wound up inventing nuclear fission. Oops.

 

After that... well, you can't put toothpaste back in the tube.

[exboomer]

I agree with both posts. Eventually there will be another war for the same reasons the first one started, unless a better solution is found, or unless the circles change.

I think it will come down to who is the next Divine. So far Vivenne and Leliana have been chosen in my playthroughs. I would like to see Cassandra be chosen as she offers the best chance for reform IMO.

[Jhelzei]

Thanks for the thoughts. Firstly, I hadn't read enough to realize that there was a reward system in place for "obedient" mages. And of course, brainwashing would help keep the mages under control. But it still doesn't seem like enough to keep someone with the ability to tear down the walls of their prison under control. I think it would have helped if there were some sort of purpose mages could have fulfilled - something more useful and exciting than lighting lamps. I'm not sure what it would be - perhaps building bridges, or zapping enemies of the chantry or kingdom.

[X Equestris]

Thanks for the thoughts. Firstly, I hadn't read enough to realize that there was a reward system in place for "obedient" mages. And of course, brainwashing would help keep the mages under control. But it still doesn't seem like enough to keep someone with the ability to tear down the walls of their prison under control. I think it would have helped if there were some sort of purpose mages could have fulfilled - something more useful and exciting than lighting lamps. I'm not sure what it would be - perhaps building bridges, or zapping enemies of the chantry or kingdom.

Most mages are pretty weak, with few to no combat applicable spells. And there's the fact that there are a large number of Templars in each Circle, so if they try to use their powers against someone else, they're going to get shorted out, unless they use blood magic, which few have any knowledge of.

And nations do appear to be able to requisition mages from the Circles. However, the Circles have the right to refuse. Circle mages also fought in the Exalted Marches against the Qunari. Otherwise, though, there is enough fear of magic to prevent them doing public works that might help improve their image.

[berelinde]

Mages *have* fought in Thedas's wars. Wynne and other Circle mages were present at the Battle of Ostagar, and Wilhelm was instrumental in Maric's success at Gwaren. But for a lot of mages, that's part of the problem. Historically, they've been sent to war. They were sent to war like a wagon load of salt beef is sent to war, with about as much of a right to refuse service. Yeah, I imagine some mages are downright patriotic, but others don't want any part of Thedas's wars. Linnea in In Hushed Whispers is an extreme example of a mage like that. She's bitter and resentful about being kept locked away like a weapon, yet she's eager to fight on Tevinter's side because she has a personal stake in the outcome. She isn't a sympathetic character, but I do understand why she's angry.

 

Some mages are gainfully employed. The formari are mages (some Tranquil) who produce items and goods for the Circle to sell. Some formari are Tranquil, like the one you encounter in Ostagar, but others, like Solitivus, are not. The guy makes potions. According to the Ostagar Tranquil, the formari actually support the Circle. The Chantry would never have enough income to keep that many mages fed and clothed. But runes, especially, are expensive, and the income they generate is enough to cover the running costs of the Circle *and* its associated templars' lyrium supply. We know this because when the Circles fall and the formari no longer give coin to the Chantry, the first thing the Chantry loses is its templars.

 

It's also important to remember that apprentices outnumber Harrowed mages by a non-trivial margin. Each of those apprentices has a mentor. The writers never say how many apprentices an enchanter has at one time, but even if it's two or three per enchanter, that would still mean that enchanters are primarily teachers. In other words, they're employed, too.

[Forsythia77]

LOL! I feel you, Forsythia77, especially when the only result of said brainstorming session is a tower of empty pizza boxes.

 

 

You get pizza?  I need to work where you work.  I'm lucky to get a stale doughnut.

[Jhelzei]

Some mages are gainfully employed. The formari are mages (some Tranquil) who produce items and goods for the Circle to sell. Some formari are Tranquil, like the one you encounter in Ostagar, but others, like Solitivus, are not. The guy makes potions. According to the Ostagar Tranquil, the formari actually support the Circle. The Chantry would never have enough income to keep that many mages fed and clothed. But runes, especially, are expensive, and the income they generate is enough to cover the running costs of the Circle *and* its associated templars' lyrium supply. We know this because when the Circles fall and the formari no longer give coin to the Chantry, the first thing the Chantry loses is its templars.

 

It's also important to remember that apprentices outnumber Harrowed mages by a non-trivial margin. Each of those apprentices has a mentor. The writers never say how many apprentices an enchanter has at one time, but even if it's two or three per enchanter, that would still mean that enchanters are primarily teachers. In other words, they're employed, too.

I thought the Formari had to be Tranquil due to the mages' inability to work directly with lyrium, or at least I thought I remembered that nugget of lore from DAO.

 

I didn't remember Linnea's anger being directly attributable to being used as a weapon. Formerly, I had thought mages were only used to fight darkspawn during Blights, but that appears to not be the case. Mages used like this should be given combat training, and not just dumped on the battlefield without preparation. And combat training seems like something Templars would be very nervous about.

 

If the Harrowing is given at a fairly young age, shouldn't older Harrowed mages outnumber the appentices? Or are so many mages slain during their Harrowing that their numbers are greatly reduced? Also, most people don't want to be teachers, and I assume mages would be the same.

 

It still seems like not giving mages the ability to interact with the general populace and at least some freedom would result in resentment, if not outright rebellion. 

 

Pardon if this seems like rambling but I'm trying to work out the ramifications of the whole Circle system out in my head.

[X Equestris]

I thought the Formari had to be Tranquil due to the mages' inability to work directly with lyrium, or at least I thought I remembered that nugget of lore from DAO.
 
I didn't remember Linnea's anger being directly attributable to being used as a weapon. Formerly, I had thought mages were only used to fight darkspawn during Blights, but that appears to not be the case. Mages used like this should be given combat training, and not just dumped on the battlefield without preparation. And combat training seems like something Templars would be very nervous about.
 
If the Harrowing is given at a fairly young age, shouldn't older Harrowed mages outnumber the appentices? Or are so many mages slain during their Harrowing that their numbers are greatly reduced? Also, most people don't want to be teachers, and I assume mages would be the same.
 
It still seems like not giving mages the ability to interact with the general populace and at least some freedom would result in resentment, if not outright rebellion. 
 
Pardon if this seems like rambling but I'm trying to work out the ramifications of the whole Circle system out in my head.

The relative few who do fight have combat training, whether it is as fire support or Knight Enchanters. And the healers attached to armies, though they don't do much fighting. As far as Templars being worried about it, remember that they can block the vast majority of spells.

The Harrowing seems to occur in the late teens or early twenties.

[berelinde]

I thought the Formari had to be Tranquil due to the mages' inability to work directly with lyrium, or at least I thought I remembered that nugget of lore from DAO.

 

I didn't remember Linnea's anger being directly attributable to being used as a weapon. Formerly, I had thought mages were only used to fight darkspawn during Blights, but that appears to not be the case. Mages used like this should be given combat training, and not just dumped on the battlefield without preparation. And combat training seems like something Templars would be very nervous about.

 

If the Harrowing is given at a fairly young age, shouldn't older Harrowed mages outnumber the appentices? Or are so many mages slain during their Harrowing that their numbers are greatly reduced? Also, most people don't want to be teachers, and I assume mages would be the same.

 

It still seems like not giving mages the ability to interact with the general populace and at least some freedom would result in resentment, if not outright rebellion. 

 

Pardon if this seems like rambling but I'm trying to work out the ramifications of the whole Circle system out in my head.

No worries! You're asking good questions, the kind that people should be asking.

 

You don't get the whole story from Linnea unless you've played the game as both a mage and a non-mage. If you play it as a non-mage, she says that Ferelden didn't do squat for her people, not that it stopped them from using her people in their wars. If you play it as a mage, it's mostly about how competitive she is, but she does say that she'd rather serve Tevinter because at least that way, she'd have a stake in her future.

 

IIRC, the statement about apprentices outnumbering mages comes from the codex entry about the Circle Hierarchy.  It says that the apprentices are the most numerous part of any Circle, but that the Harrowed mages, those who have passed their Harrowing but who have not yet taken on apprentices as enchanters, are the most troublesome. Most mages are made enchanters and assigned apprentices soon after their Harrowing (Bethany is given her first apprentice within a week), but some (e.g. Anders) are never promoted to enchanter. This may because, as you say, not everyone is suited to teaching. I also get the impression that not all enchanters spend every waking moment teaching. Rhys has the rank of senior enchanter, like Wynne, but he never mentions any apprentices at all in Asunder, which makes me think he's more into research and possibly subject-specific teaching, like the guy near the storeroom of Kinloch Hold who complains that Owen's out of cinnabar.

 

Mages seem to undergo their Harrowing at about the age when most cultures undergo the rite of passage into adulthood, somewhere between 18 and 22. People aren't done growing up at that age, but they are usually able to make informed life decisions and function in adult society. It seems to fill a cultural need. Coincidentally, that's the age most RPG protagonists are when they begin their adventures. They will have just undergone their initiation/induction/etc and the prologue of the game is often the challenge marks the end of it. Gorion's Ward has just left his or her apprenticeship, it's the Kalach-Cha's last Harvest Fair, etc, etc, etc. It's a turbulent age IRL, too, so most people can relate. Anyway...

 

It's possible that some mages leave the Circle to accept postings at various institutions such as the University of Orlais, and that many more are assigned here and there as formari. Formari are merchants and artisans who are also mages. Most Tranquil are formari (assistants like Ilsa and the one in the Skyhold library excepted), but not all formari are tranquil. Any mage who crafts or sells items for the Circle is a formari, so the group includes non-Tranquil like Solitivus (I love talking to that guy). I vaguely remember some mage boots called "Formari Work Boots".

 

According to Anders, suicide is a leading cause of death in the Circle, but I'm not sure how reliable his information is. The fact that prior to the mage revolution, a lot of mages did seem to feel as if their existence was pointless seems to bear that out. You have mages like Keili, consumed by self-loathing, and mages like Senior Enchanter Sweeney who just wants to be left alone with his books. And for all the young whippersnappers to get off his lawn.

 

I'm not sure that many mages did resent the limitations that were placed upon them. That's a big part of the reason they rebelled... but it isn't the entire reason. The truly hopeless - those who believe their lives cannot improve - do not rebel. I don't think it's an accident that the two leaders of the mage rebellion, Fiona and Anders, were both Grey Wardens. They both knew what it was to live outside the Circles. They were both capable of imagining a better life, and they were both articulate enough to describe that vision to others. The Circle mages needed hope of a better life before they were willing to commit to change.

[SomberXIII]

Previous circles were never working properly, due to their lack of freedom or people's fears. I hope that in the future they will be more like the College of Magi from The Elder Scrolls series. At there, mages were treated like regular people. That's probably not gonna happen because of those things, blood magic, demon possessions or else.

[Roninbarista]

I was a bit confused about the Circle. Mainly because mages like Anders always tried to escape when it seems all he needed was Irving's permission to leave. Also that edge of darkness to it, mages could be killed if they don't pass their harrowing. Also outside the Circle, a mage/apostate who resisted the Templars could be killed (if I remember that correctly). That brutality always gave me the impression that the management of magic was dangerous and serious business.

There was also the leash the Chantry held over the Templars via their Lyrium addiction. Very dark affairs. Then Kirkwall Circle stacked wrongs on top of wrongs.

[berelinde]

I was a bit confused about the Circle. Mainly because mages like Anders always tried to escape when it seems all he needed was Irving's permission to leave. Also that edge of darkness to it, mages could be killed if they don't pass their harrowing. Also outside the Circle, a mage/apostate who resisted the Templars could be killed (if I remember that correctly). That brutality always gave me the impression that the management of magic was dangerous and serious business.

There was also the leash the Chantry held over the Templars via their Lyrium addiction. Very dark affairs. Then Kirkwall Circle stacked wrongs on top of wrongs.

The first point... I'm not sure that's true anywhere outside Montsimmard. Each Circle set its own rules for out-of-Circle excursions, especially after the dissolution of the College of Enchanters. And you have to consider the source. Yes, Vivienne tells the future Inquisitor that nothing else is required but permission... but she was the First Enchanter. Of course she'd say that. But she was the mistress of a duke and advisor to the Imperial court. Looking at the map, Montsimmard looks to be about a week's travel from Val Royeaux and double that from Ghislain. Across an ocean. When was she ever in residence long enough to approve all those other enchanters' hall passes?

 

Plus, I don't imagine many grown men and women enjoy having to raise their hands and ask permission every time they want to use the bathroom. These are Harrowed mages, men and women who have already demonstrated that they have the strength of character to resist possession. Yes, it's kinda petty for professional adults to become resentful over punching a time-clock, but no one enjoys being treated like a child (or worse, an object whose borrowing privileges are controlled by someone else).

 

Some Circles didn't even allow that much personal liberty. Rhys is a senior enchanter of the White Spire, but he can't get permission to go the the market. According to Assunder, mages aren't allowed the right of assembly. I have a hard time believing that a Circle which denies mages the right to converse with other mages inside their own tower would allow them to leave it readily.

[Iakus]

The training is supposed to help them control their powers and avoid possession by demons, not necessarily hone them into weapons, though I guess that would happen as a natural byproduct of training. But many mages don't have the aptitude or inclination to fight in combat, and prefer to focus on healing / research, etc. (like Researcher Minaeve). In DA:O with the mage origin, more senior mages who had passed their Harrowing were allowed to leave to assist King Cailan's army against the Darkspawn, so presumably there is a sanctioned outlet for their powers in combat even if they don't have a regular "mage batallion" or anything.

 

Heck a big reason the Circles were formed was the goodwill that was built up when mages helped Emperor Drakon fight the Second Blight.

[Iakus]

The first point... I'm not sure that's true anywhere outside Montsimmard. Each Circle set its own rules for out-of-Circle excursions, especially after the dissolution of the College of Enchanters. And you have to consider the source. Yes, Vivienne tells the future Inquisitor that nothing else is required but permission... but she was the First Enchanter. Of course she'd say that. But she was the mistress of a duke and advisor to the Imperial court. Looking at the map, Montsimmard looks to be about a week's travel from Val Royeaux and double that from Ghislain. Across an ocean. When was she ever in residence long enough to approve all those other enchanters' hall passes?

 

Plus, I don't imagine many grown men and women enjoy having to raise their hands and ask permission every time they want to use the bathroom. These are Harrowed mages, men and women who have already demonstrated that they have the strength of character to resist possession. Yes, it's kinda petty for professional adults to become resentful over punching a time-clock, but no one enjoys being treated like a child (or worse, an object whose borrowing privileges are controlled by someone else).

 

Some Circles didn't even allow that much personal liberty. Rhys is a senior enchanter of the White Spire, but he can't get permission to go the the market. According to Assunder, mages aren't allowed the right of assembly. I have a hard time believing that a Circle which denies mages the right to converse with other mages inside their own tower would allow them to leave it readily.

How do you know these are "hall passes" and not simply general permission for mages to come and go as they please?  They pass their Harrowing, they've proven their not idiots who light to shoot lightning at people who annoy them, let them enjoy themselves!

 

And no, not all Circles were that permissive of course, and Kirkwall was the worst of the worst.  But White Spire seemed to have gotten as bad as it did after Anders blew up the Kirkwall Chantry, followed by attempts to kill the Divine by blood mages, and the whole Ghost of the White Spire thing didn't help matters.  Tensions were high.