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[Lumix19]

How do you know these are "hall passes" and not simply general permission for mages to come and go as they please?  They pass their Harrowing, they've proven their not idiots who light to shoot lightning at people who annoy them, let them enjoy themselves!

 

And no, not all Circles were that permissive of course, and Kirkwall was the worst of the worst.  But White Spire seemed to have gotten as bad as it did after Anders blew up the Kirkwall Chantry, followed by attempts to kill the Divine by blood mages, and the whole Ghost of the White Spire thing didn't help matters.  Tensions were high.

I dunno...some of the biggest resentment seems to stem from the presence of the templars, in that they're always around and they're always watching. I'm not sure I can reconcile that with the idea that mages are allowed to just leave as and when they feel like it, at least not without a personal guard. Enchanter Illana only got permission to leave her Circle whenever she pleased because her father was a very powerful noble and even then she had to bring templar guards.

[Krypplingz]

I was a bit confused about the Circle. Mainly because mages like Anders always tried to escape when it seems all he needed was Irving's permission to leave. 

-snip-

I'm pretty sure the permission is given with the condition that the mage will return to the Circle after having completed the task they were planning to do on their trip. And if they were taking too long, the Circle would probably send Templars to check up on them. 

 

Anders made at least seven attempts to escape the Circle and I think some of them were before he was Harrowed. (Finn says that Anders was an apprentice when he swam over the lake). 

Irving saw him as a "reckless scamp" and probably had to pull some strings to let Anders keep his head after the first three escapes. He might be able to get Gregoir to stay his hand when Anders was recaptured, but Gregoir would laugh Irving out of the Circle if Irving suggested letting Anders go and hope that he would return to the Circle on his own will. 

Also, Anders hated Irving. I doubt he'd be willing to plead for a permission slip, even if there was a possibility of getting it.

 

And I'd assume the Permission slip would also have to be approved by the Knight Commander as well, so if the Knight Commander hates your guts, you probably aren't getting that pass unless you have a really good reason.

And the dynamic between the current Knight Commander and Enchanter is probably taken into consideration. Vivienne has more power than Orsino so she'd have an easier time demanding changes. Irving and Gregoir had similar power levels, so they could convince each other.

And they'd have to take in the general attitude towards mages at the time. Rhys can't go to the Market during Assunder because people are more wary and even hostile towards mages because of the events in Kirkwall and the attempted assassination of the Divine from a mage. 

 

So I think that Vivienne is telling the truth that the only thing a mage needs to leave the Circle is the Grand Enchanters Permission. But to get and to give the permission, many, many other conditions must be met. 

[berelinde]

How do you know these are "hall passes" and not simply general permission for mages to come and go as they please?  They pass their Harrowing, they've proven their not idiots who light to shoot lightning at people who annoy them, let them enjoy themselves!

 

And no, not all Circles were that permissive of course, and Kirkwall was the worst of the worst.  But White Spire seemed to have gotten as bad as it did after Anders blew up the Kirkwall Chantry, followed by attempts to kill the Divine by blood mages, and the whole Ghost of the White Spire thing didn't help matters.  Tensions were high.

In the beginning of Asunder, Adrian and Rhys are talking about how they used to go shopping in Val Royeaux, but that they haven't been allowed outside in years. All this happened *before* Jeannot tried to assassinate the Divine at Celene's ball.

 

The timeline was:

 

9:37 Anders blows up the Chantry, mages of the White Spire are now restricted to the tower

9:38 The College of Enchanters votes against secession from the Chantry

9:38 The Chantry immediately disbands the College of Enchanters, revokes all travel privileges, and revokes mages' right of assembly

9:39 late autumn: Empress Celene hosts a ball for the Divine where Jeannot, an enchanter, attempts to assassinate the Divine

9:39 late autumn, a week later: Rhys and Evangeline are ordered to investigate Pharamond's disappearance

9:39 winter-9:40 early spring (date uncertain): Rhys and Evangeline return and the White Spire falls

 

It's possible that the White Spire was unusually restrictive... but it's also possible that Vivienne was stretching the truth because it suited her purposes. I really enjoy Vivienne as a character, but one of the things I appreciate most about her is that she is entirely capable of manipulating others to get what she wants. Yes, she absolutely does want to save Duke Bastien's life, and I firmly believe that she is primarily motivated by affection for him... but her first act after Duke Bastien's death is to persuade Duke Bastien's sister, an influential cleric, and his son, a key member of the Council of Heralds, that she has the Inquisitor's backing and support. She is cementing her position and ensuring that Duke Bastien's death does not have a negative impact on her social standing. She has mastered the Game, and all attendant politics.

 

You also have to remember that when Vivienne is telling the Inquisitor all this, it is long after the fact. The Circles are gone. Anyone who might conceivably contradict her is either dead or in hiding. Do I think she's lying? No, not entirely. I'm sure that at one point (and for certain mages), travel required nothing more than permission from the First Enchanter. After all, the mage Warden needed only permission from Irving to go with Duncan. But I doubt that was the whole story.

[X Equestris]

I was a bit confused about the Circle. Mainly because mages like Anders always tried to escape when it seems all he needed was Irving's permission to leave. Also that edge of darkness to it, mages could be killed if they don't pass their harrowing. Also outside the Circle, a mage/apostate who resisted the Templars could be killed (if I remember that correctly). That brutality always gave me the impression that the management of magic was dangerous and serious business.
There was also the leash the Chantry held over the Templars via their Lyrium addiction. Very dark affairs. Then Kirkwall Circle stacked wrongs on top of wrongs.

Consider that Anders never liked the Circle. He always resented being there. So he probably had an attitude that made it seem like he wouldn't come back if he was let out. And then he attempts to escape multiple times, proving that view right.

As for mages who fail their Harrowing being killed, if you fail your Harrowing, it's usually because you got yourself possessed, and thus had to be put down.

[Kalas Magnus]

They are protected from the people by the templars.

And the people are protected from them by the templars. 

 

Mages are clearly superior to the commoners. Should they be given a plot of land and develop their own society eventually they would realize this and look to conquer the nearby areas.

 

And you cant just kill them because they are extremely powerful. they are needed for the darkspawn(blight) threat. (i think they developed the potion that the wardens drink for the initiation. )

 

so the circle while not a perfect solution is good enough.

[Lumix19]

They are protected from the people by the templars.
And the people are protected from them by the templars. 
 
Mages are clearly superior to the commoners. Should they be given a plot of land and develop their own society eventually they would realize this and look to conquer the nearby areas.
 
And you cant just kill them because they are extremely powerful. they are needed for the darkspawn(blight) threat. (i think they developed the potion that the wardens drink for the initiation. )
 
so the circle while not a perfect solution is good enough.

Except for the fact that mages already have their own society? It's called the Circle? If you really wanted to stop this from happening wouldn't you integrate mages into society rather than segregating them?

[berelinde]

Except for the fact that mages already have their own society? It's called the Circle? If you really wanted to stop this from happening wouldn't you integrate mages into society rather than segregating them?

That's exactly what you would do, if you knew them as people and not as a symbol of the Tevinter Empire. By integrating mages into society, they would have a personal stake in their community's welfare. It works for the Chasind, the Avvar, and the Dalish.

 

The problem is that the group in control of the mages derives their political power and temporal authority from their control of the mages. With mages integrated into society, their power base is gone, along with their political clout and social standing. It was in their best interests to preserve the status quo.

[Jouni S]

I have the feeling that the Circles never functioned very well. We meet many named mages outside the Circles in DA:O and DA2. If we also consider the unnamed mages we encounter (and kill) as canon, then I'd say that the majority of mages have nothing to do with the Circles. In that case, the Circles are just prisons for the minority of mages who were unlucky enough to get caught.

[Panda]

Circle is in ideal case place that protects mages and others from their magic by teaching them to use it so they don't unpurposedly hurt anyone (like Wynne set boy's hair in fire) and they can resist demons and not get possessed (like Connor). It's also meant to protect mages from regular people that often are scared or even hostile towards magic and mages (though this is at least partially Chantry's and it's teachings fault).

 

Some Circles give their mages quite much freedom, enchanters (those who completed Harrowing) can go shopping (White Spire before shitty things happened), even visit people and attend balls (some Orlais circles) or go researching trips (Ferelden) and they can also be visited by their family members (Kirkwall at least in some point).

[Teddie Sage]

Personally, I believe that a school for wizardry like Harry Potter books in Thedas would work.

Spoiler

Pretty much what happens in some of the endings of DAI.

[Junebug]

I sorta copy+pasta my opinion about this from another thread a while back:

 

I don't think there would be a single mage who wouldn't want to be free to choose how to live. If I were a mage, I would want freedom but I also want to learn how to use my powers in a controlled environment—like Hogwarts, Durmstrang, or Beauxbatons. Every region would have a public school specifically for mages. There would be less tension between the people of Thedas over them.

Spoiler

I can see the College of Enchanters blossoming into a nice academy for eager scholars.

Qualified First Enchanters and veteran Circle Mages could be professors and Headmasters. They would go through a screening by the Inquisition and must be endorsed before chosen to lead. Ambassadors for the Inquisition would screen in other regions. I hope it's successful. I can only imagine radical ex-templars and Loyalists would wanna tear it down.

 

As for Templars, I'd make it so that the order is eradicated. No more ingesting lyrium, no more policing mages. The Inquisition's best medical specialists and allied specialists would screen them for PTSD and rehabilitate lyrium addicts, giving them the proper care and therapy they need. If a templar individual is still fit for duty (after passing screens to make sure they're not infected with red lyrium or possess ill intentions toward mages), they can become a part of any guard in any region that is allied with the Inquisition or they can try to assimilate back into civilian lifestyle (with the aid of the Inquisition). Same for mages unqualified to teach or assist. They may be screened (rehabilitated if they also show signs of PTSD), attend the school, and/or have a domicile on campus grounds in an attempt to assimilate into Thedas' social environments.

 

Don't mind me, just dreamin' of a future of Thedas being rebuilt here... XD

[KaiserShep]

I have the feeling that the Circles never functioned very well. We meet many named mages outside the Circles in DA:O and DA2. If we also consider the unnamed mages we encounter (and kill) as canon, then I'd say that the majority of mages have nothing to do with the Circles. In that case, the Circles are just prisons for the minority of mages who were unlucky enough to get caught.

This is how I feel about it as well. After all, it's not like the Chantry has its own Cerebro that can detect mages across Thedas, and they only have so many foot soldiers that can scour the city and countryside, and all those folks that opt to keep their children rather than give them up forever don't help.

[Domimi]

How do you know these are "hall passes" and not simply general permission for mages to come and go as they please?  They pass their Harrowing, they've proven their not idiots who light to shoot lightning at people who annoy them, let them enjoy themselves!

 

And no, not all Circles were that permissive of course, and Kirkwall was the worst of the worst.  But White Spire seemed to have gotten as bad as it did after Anders blew up the Kirkwall Chantry, followed by attempts to kill the Divine by blood mages, and the whole Ghost of the White Spire thing didn't help matters.  Tensions were high.

 

Sorry, I didn't read if anyone else replied to this.

 

The circles (nearly all of them) did not allow any mage outside of the Tower, unless they had an official business and a permit granted by the First Enchanter. You may also try doing such an action after passing your Harrowing in DA:O and trying to leave the Tower. The templar who is guarding the main door will reply 'Of course you may not leave the tower, unless you have an official business to attent to <..>' [Or something like that, cannot provide a detailed quote]

 

In Kirkwail, however, mages were allowed to wander around the Gallos, but anything beside that would be a death sentence, as you would be treated as an appostate.

[Sylvius the Mad]

You can either have the Circles, or endanger the normal population outside the Circles for the sake of life fairness.

And if I'm a mage, I'm choosing Door #2.

[Boost32]

In Kirkwail, however, mages were allowed to wander around the Gallos, but anything beside that would be a death sentence, as you would be treated as an appostate.

Not true, Bethany could leave to attend a orlesian party and to investigate who was her attackers, both times without supervision.

[IanPolaris]

Not true, Bethany could leave to attend a orlesian party and to investigate who was her attackers, both times without supervision.

 

Bethany had a brother who was the Champion of Kirkwall, an Amell Noble in his own right, and someone that Meredith either felt was worth cooperating with, or was so powerful that she didn't want to politically cross him unless it was absolutely essential.  Given that her good treatment of Bethany was the most important hold that Meridith had over a potentially very troublesome Champion of Kirkwall, it makes tons of sense that Bethany was given privledges that no other mage in Kirkwall could get (not even Orsino).

[Boost32]

Bethany had a brother who was the Champion of Kirkwall, an Amell Noble in his own right, and someone that Meredith either felt was worth cooperating with, or was so powerful that she didn't want to politically cross him unless it was absolutely essential.  Given that her good treatment of Bethany was the most important hold that Meridith had over a potentially very troublesome Champion of Kirkwall, it makes tons of sense that Bethany was given privledges that no other mage in Kirkwall could get (not even Orsino).

If this was true, Bethany would't leave in act 2.
But maybe its because she was a trustworth mage who respected the rules and because of this gained the right to leave the Circle in certain occasions, like Wynne, Vivienne, Finn and Inês.

[Wulfram]

For whatever it's worth, in DA:O the door guard in the Mage Origin says that "only mages on official Circle business are allowed to leave".

[IanPolaris]

If this was true, Bethany would't leave in act 2.
But maybe its because she was a trustworth mage who respected the rules and because of this gained the right to leave the Circle in certain occasions, like Wynne, Vivienne, Finn and Inês.

 

In Act 2, Hawke is already an Amell Noble and has the ear of the Viscount.  He may not have the clout of Champion of Kirkwall, but even in Act 2 is already one of the most powerful and wealthy nobles in Kirkwall.   Remember that Meredith keeps her mitts off even a mage Hawke as early as Act 2.

[Boost32]

In Act 2, Hawke is already an Amell Noble and has the ear of the Viscount.  He may not have the clout of Champion of Kirkwall, but even in Act 2 is already one of the most powerful and wealthy nobles in Kirkwall.   Remember that Meredith keeps her mitts off even a mage Hawke as early as Act 2.

Emilie is a noble and cant leave like Bethany.

[Uccio]

Not true, Bethany could leave to attend a orlesian party and to investigate who was her attackers, both times without supervision.

 

Plot armor.

[Medhia_Nox]

Were I to govern a nation in Thedas - I wouldn't care one wit about the Circles, but any non-registered mage who uses magic in my nation would be put to death.  I would not control the magic, I would control the knowledge.  You want a magical education?  You register with the state and you will serve the state for a specified amount of time.  Healing mages and mages in the military would live quite cushy lives - while people who just wanted to wield magic without responsibility to their fellow citizens would feed the executioner's ax.

 

Magic is not like a knife, or fists and anyone who can't see that is naive at best.  

 

That violent magics are taught to everyone in the Circle tower boggles the mind.  That mages are given the freedom to learn the spells they want flies in the face of anyone claiming they're slaves.  You don't arm your slaves. 

 

The Knight Enchanters completely undermine the idea that mages are somehow needed for wars.  As only Loyalist mages are taught the KE specialization (which is hilarious since the Inquisitor is not vetted at all for his loyalty).  So why do they just allow anyone to learn how to throw fireballs or insert explosive magic seeds of ticking death into people.  

[Forsythia77]

Were I to govern a nation in Thedas - I wouldn't care one wit about the Circles, but any non-registered mage who uses magic in my nation would be put to death.  I would not control the magic, I would control the knowledge.  You want a magical education?  You register with the state and you will serve the state for a specified amount of time.  Healing mages and mages in the military would live quite cushy lives - while people who just wanted to wield magic without responsibility to their fellow citizens would feed the executioner's ax.

 

Magic is not like a knife, or fists and anyone who can't see that is naive at best.  

 

That violent magics are taught to everyone in the Circle tower boggles the mind.  That mages are given the freedom to learn the spells they want flies in the face of anyone claiming they're slaves.  You don't arm your slaves. 

 

The Knight Enchanters completely undermine the idea that mages are somehow needed for wars.  As only Loyalist mages are taught the KE specialization (which is hilarious since the Inquisitor is not vetted at all for his loyalty).  So why do they just allow anyone to learn how to throw fireballs or insert explosive magic seeds of ticking death into people.  

 

Remind me not to take a vacation in your nation.  What if some poor sod gets stabbed in an alley while I'm on vacation in your nation and I heal him?  Do I get the hangman's noose for not letting someone die?  This seems too extreme.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Forsythia77:  Did you have documentation upon entering my nation?

Let's not get all up in arms about "papers" either - I'm not sure about other nations, but you don't leave the U.S. without a passport.  

 

A simple card registering you as a "Visiting Mage" detailing your capabilities would be enough... so long as the magic you used doesn't go out of those capabilities.