68 réponses à ce sujet

[Rawgrim]

Tactics isn't really required in this game, though. People have beaten the game on nightmare by casting Barrier and then just button mashed through every fight. The A.I is rotten, yes. But I don't think the inclusion of Tactics would have made any difference.

[turuzzusapatuttu]

The game is broke ......... was broke and will be broke forever. They ruined it.

 

Ok so DAI will be Brock forever.

 

 

We get it.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Wait... you mean some people don't want DAI to be a hack and slash grind fest?

 

I find that hard to believe! /s

[Darkly Tranquil]

Wait... you mean some people don't want DAI to be a hack and slash grind fest?
 
I find that hard to believe! /s

All those people have pretty much left by now and gone to play Pillars of Eternity; if Bioware's goal was to drive away the tactical RPG fans, mission accomplished. They can now fully commit their energies to making the shallowest, blingiest button masher to appeal to ADD ridden console crowd. I expect they will double down on the simplistic combat in the next game and dispense with tactics and the tactical camera altogether and just go full retard on action combat.

[CHRrOME]

Absolutely agree, and the worst part is that this is not the first time I see a post asking for the terrible or rather lack of decent AI and tactics.

 

Just out of interest, is there any official explanation bout why the tactics were removed?

 

For all the other 'dodgy' decisions they made for this game, there's generally some kind of explanation, even if I don't agree with it. But not so with the tactics removal, which means I can only speculate

 

Possible explanations may be:

 

1) Frostbite engine does not support them.

 

2) It was felt that having combat tactics may make the game seem too complicated, and potentially put off casual, CoD-type gamers.

 

3) They would somehow have impacted multiplayer.

 

4) Bioware deliberately wanted to emphasise manual control of party members, and chose to minimise automated tactics in order to force players to follow this design.

 

5) The guy who programmed the tactics menu in the previous games left or was fired, and nobody else knew how to do it.

 

 

I've honestly no idea which of the above is the most accurate, your guess is as good as mine.

 

1) Don't think so

2) This

3) Not at all

4) Quite possible, yes

5) Nah... Mind you, who knows...

 

Never understood Why they removed completely the tactics and added garbage AI to the followers. I finished the game on Hard and it was a pain, mostly because It was me controlling my character and hanging out with 3 morons who couldn't quite behave in an intelligent fashion 95% of the time.

[In Exile]

All those people have pretty much left by now and gone to play Pillars of Eternity; if Bioware's goal was to drive away the tactical RPG fans, mission accomplished. They can now fully commit their energies to making the shallowest, blingiest button masher to appeal to ADD ridden console crowd. I expect they will double down on the simplistic combat in the next game and dispense with tactics and the tactical camera altogether and just go full retard on action combat.

Not to interrupt the circle jerk, but POEs combat complexity is being vastly overstated. It requires a bit to readjust to its fundamental source of difficulty (swarms of mobs on anything less than path of the dammed and stat buffs on POD) but it's not exactly earth shattering if you use the right starting class. And if you actually power game a custom party it's crazy easy.

The combat is fun, the abilities are deeper and more varied, and the UI is so much better the comparison is actually insulting to Obsidian, but on an objective scale POE isn't even as hard as BG2 IMO.

[Sartoz]

I remember when I could buy slots to macro how my team handled a given threat, the first game could be perfectly scripted so you didn't need to worry about people being stupid. Given it took a while to level high enough to have enough macro slots to do so, its still better than the 'favorite this ability' thing we have now. 

 

They shifted the game because they went in favor of the slow down mechanic with the tactical camera. They pretty much demand its use if you want any sort of control over how your party reacts to a given threat. 

 

They wanted to try a new mechanic instead of sticking with what already proved to be effective and it flopped. The slowdown with the tactical decisions worked very well in Mass Effect because its a third person cover based shooter. It doesn't work well in a small primarily melee combat based game, this isn't meant to be a turn based combat game and that's what the infliction of the tactical camera brings it to.

Actually, what you wanted requires thinking on the part of the game's designers.  The finished product proves that THINKING is a missing skill set at the studio.

[Duelist]

Tactics isn't really required in this game, though. People have beaten the game on nightmare by casting Barrier and then just button mashed through every fight. The A.I is rotten, yes. But I don't think the inclusion of Tactics would have made any difference.

You could do the exact same thing in DAO, just replace barrier with a kajillion potions and remove the enemies that punish that approach (the Envy Demon springs to mind, Despair Demons to a lesser extent, Fear Demons certainly).

The only difference is that in DAO there isn't any masterworks to make the resultant long ass war of attrition less tedious.

At most tactics would have reduced the guess work in figuring out what abilities the AI can use although even with tactics, AI sucks at using AoE spells and talents or playing a melee rogue/DPS warrior.

[Winged Silver]

Sneaking around the back of a dragon to nab some materials in the forest. I'm safe, I'm distant, my party has been told to hold their ground.

Suddenly the music starts, because Varrick ran up to my cloaked character and shot the dragon in the ass.

Origins had a hold position that worked, and I could set my characters to not shoot the dragon in the ass unless I wanted them to. How is a 2015 dragon age sequel unable to handle these basic commands?

Meanwhile Solas, who actually held his ground, buffs himself and only himself.

This game will never be complete without a tactics menu.

 

I'm picturing this situation in my head and just chuckling to myself XD it's awful but funny.

 

I want them to bring back a more complex system too. Origin was great in that if you didn't want to use it, you didn't have to, but there was just so much choice. But if they bring it back I really hope they add a "move away from the dragon breathing fire in your face" tactic. That would be a useful addition I think, given its current state.

[Saphiron123]

I'm picturing this situation in my head and just chuckling to myself XD it's awful but funny.

I want them to bring back a more complex system too. Origin was great in that if you didn't want to use it, you didn't have to, but there was just so much choice. But if they bring it back I really hope they add a "move away from the dragon breathing fire in your face" tactic. That would be a useful addition I think, given its current state.

I agree. And true some people won't use it, but it was good enough to make the borderline non-existent ai in origins seem on par with anything from the time.

Sadly the current ai isn't smart enough to do the job, and the truth is, I'd want tactics even if it was just so I could be personally involved and order my party to fight the way I want them to.

[Zinho73]

Tactics isn't really required in this game, though. People have beaten the game on nightmare by casting Barrier and then just button mashed through every fight. The A.I is rotten, yes. But I don't think the inclusion of Tactics would have made any difference.

RPG design basics: if something is no longer challenging, try to make it interesting.

Eventually, all dedicated players will discover "optimal" ways to do things. The fun part is having a lot of those "optimal" options. There were several things you could do to make a bad ass party in DAO.

 

With or without tactics you will finish the game. With a lot of different tactical options you will have fun while doing it.

[Vanth]

I also miss the tactics in DA:I. However, I think it is clear now that their removal is a deliberate refocussing of the DA games on a new audience. If you want to sell millions of copies of the game you have to realise that most of this enlarged player base are too dumb to be able to use tactics. It is not what the average person wants. They want to button mash, feel like they are doing something, and then win. 

 

If you want to play a game that requires some thought to it, stay away from the big budget, mass market games and go for the niche ones like Pillars of Eternity. 

[Rawgrim]

You could do the exact same thing in DAO, just replace barrier with a kajillion potions and remove the enemies that punish that approach (the Envy Demon springs to mind, Despair Demons to a lesser extent, Fear Demons certainly).

The only difference is that in DAO there isn't any masterworks to make the resultant long ass war of attrition less tedious.

At most tactics would have reduced the guess work in figuring out what abilities the AI can use although even with tactics, AI sucks at using AoE spells and talents or playing a melee rogue/DPS warrior.

 

The potion spamming is pretty much an exploit.

 

In DA:I, though. Enemies don't have access to the abilities the player does. So the game is pretty much a shooter, where only the player gets to have a gun.

[Rawgrim]

I also miss the tactics in DA:I. However, I think it is clear now that their removal is a deliberate refocussing of the DA games on a new audience. If you want to sell millions of copies of the game you have to realise that most of this enlarged player base are too dumb to be able to use tactics. It is not what the average person wants. They want to button mash, feel like they are doing something, and then win. 

 

If you want to play a game that requires some thought to it, stay away from the big budget, mass market games and go for the niche ones like Pillars of Eternity. 

 

It was marketed as an action-rpg this time, though. So Bioware were upfront with it from the get go. To some extent, anyway.

[Inex]

I also miss the tactics in DA:I. However, I think it is clear now that their removal is a deliberate refocussing of the DA games on a new audience. If you want to sell millions of copies of the game you have to realise that most of this enlarged player base are too dumb to be able to use tactics. It is not what the average person wants. They want to button mash, feel like they are doing something, and then win. 

 

Or they could give us an option for automatic tactics (like the one we have now) AND a customized set of tactics, for an even wider audience.  Also the difficulty issue needs to be addressed. Even without tactics, the game needs stronger enemies, better enemy AI and abilities, so i can't imagine how easy it would be if we had tactics on the current difficulty level.

[Innsmouth Dweller]

Not to interrupt the circle jerk, but POEs combat complexity is being vastly overstated. It requires a bit to readjust to its fundamental source of difficulty (swarms of mobs on anything less than path of the dammed and stat buffs on POD) but it's not exactly earth shattering if you use the right starting class. And if you actually power game a custom party it's crazy easy.

The combat is fun, the abilities are deeper and more varied, and the UI is so much better the comparison is actually insulting to Obsidian, but on an objective scale POE isn't even as hard as BG2 IMO.

1. "tactical" doesn't mean "hard". well, maybe it does if you like action-oriented experience more.

2. the existence of "sunny day" scenario (using the 'right' starting class) doesn't imply low number of possible ways of defeating enemies - it's a player's choice, not game devs

[AWTEW]

The game is broke ......... was broke and will be broke forever. They ruined it.

 

Ooh lets make a list..

 

AI is stupid.

Inquisitor is boring.

Old-Gen problems are ****** atrocious.

Ignoring the Old Gen complaints is rude, and just bad.

Power grinding iis compulsory to proceed the story.

The main story is only 15 hours long (shorter than DA2)

Multiplayer is bad.

Keyboard controls are awful.

Lack of cutscenes.

Removing the good things about DA2 system.

No choice to be a real bad inquisitor.

Blood Mage Hawke issue.

Lack of Zevran.

[xkg]

The main story is only 15 hours long (shorter than DA2)

 

Are you talking about DA:A ? Because according to hundreds of polled PTs that's the only game in DA franchise that comes close to this

http://howlongtobeat...me.php?id=11627

[Fireheart]

Also, add back the ability to have all party members attack the same target.

Edit: it's really a wonder why tacticI aren't in the game. I never used it much but that's because the default setup was perfect already. Only know that it's gone in Inquisition do I realize how great it was, and how much I actually relied on it. Even Final Fantasy 12 had tactics. The Gambit system... Literally the greatest tactics system ever. So much so that the game could play itself, you could leave the game on, go to sleep, and wake up with your party still alive...

[Terodil]

Also, add back the ability to have all party members attack the same target.

Well you can play around with the targeting options a bit, but tbh that part is even more ridiculous than the rest of the "A.I.". You need to jump through hoops like: "Cassandra: Follow self" etc. Not intuitive. And even if you manage to set it up in some way, you still end up with Varric and Solas competing for who gets to stand in fire most often. Why is there no 'If enemy closes into melee range, run away' option? Even BG and NWN had that. >.<
 

So much so that the game could play itself, you could leave the game on, go to sleep, and wake up with your party still alive...

I agree. When I played DA:O I made a point of putting entire battle plans into tactics. It was beautiful, and if 'the game played itself' it meant I had done a good job. I can understand some players saying that they don't like 'auto-play' modes, but then... fair enough, don't use tactics and do some micromanagement instead.

I want tactics back too! (proper tactics, not this... stuff)

[Fireheart]

One thing I never understood is the "follow/defend" thing. They don't even explain what it is in game. And the game itself doesn't come with a manual (as many games are doing these days) so how am I supposed to know? Ugh.

[Steelcan]

Are you talking about DA:A ? Because according to hundreds of polled PTs that's the only game in DA franchise that comes close to this

http://howlongtobeat...me.php?id=11627

I think that's because of how the game logs time in.

 

I've been making a point to closing the game so that time isn't logged while the console isn't on.  And I'm at ~60hrs with only the last mission left and Jaws of Haakon.  And yes its a completionist run.

[JeffKaos]

I'm kind of surprised no one mentioned the REAL reason they cheaped out on the AI tactics. Because a 12 year old kid playing on their Xbox doesn't want to mess around with all of the settings we had in Origins. Put an ability to "preferred/on/off" is about as complex as they want it. Besides, the game's so easy there's no reason to get too in depth with combat. I usually don't cry "dumbed down for console" because I play a ton of games on my console and I don't mind streamlined game play. But in this case I feel like it really is a clear cut case of dumbing down.

[DanteYoda]

That's funny OP i had similar occurrences in my game, wasn't Varric it was Cassandra...

[Vanth]

I'm kind of surprised no one mentioned the REAL reason they cheaped out on the AI tactics. Because a 12 year old kid playing on their Xbox doesn't want to mess around with all of the settings we had in Origins. Put an ability to "preferred/on/off" is about as complex as they want it. Besides, the game's so easy there's no reason to get too in depth with combat. I usually don't cry "dumbed down for console" because I play a ton of games on my console and I don't mind streamlined game play. But in this case I feel like it really is a clear cut case of dumbing down.

 

That is the point I was making in post 37.