858 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

Why? Because they didn't share how to restore a Tranquil's mind? No need to overreact.

Besides, asking someone who is seven hundred years old for a moral opinion...

 

Asking someone who was one of the best friends of Emperor Drakon, a man so revered by the Chantry that his name is up there with Andraste, a man whose name is revered in Chantry circles as well as not only an Inquisitor but also important to the Seekers,

 

and a person who is a firsthand witness to the Seekers swearing never, ever to use tranquility on mages permanently, and that they swore an oath that it would never be abused as it has been, by the Seekers and templars both. 

 

As someone who was there at the founding and witnessed the founding principles, and best friend of Emperor Drakon, I'd say he's more than enough for an authority, despite being a mage.

[Vaseldwa]

If I were a mage I would most likely be alot like wynne. Magic is dangerous and if I were a mage I would want to be in a place where I could learn to control my magic and have others be safe from me should the worse come to pass. Of course if the circle I was in was bad, I think I could be ask for a transfer idk. But I wouldn't go nuts and start killing people all in the name of "freedom" or to prove the templars point and to make those with out magic fear mages more, which in turn benefits no one.

[Master Warder Z_]

No mages that we see and talk to (aside from Aneirin). You're using absence of evidence as evidence of absence in regards to the mages, and Lanaya's dialogue implies that they weren't killed, while nothing whatsoever implies that they were.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

That logic cuts both ways.

Nothing implied they weren't killed or exiled.

[Xilizhra]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

That logic cuts both ways.

Nothing implied they weren't killed or exiled.

Except for Lanaya's dialogue.

[Angry_Elcor]

I would most definitely not be free. I would charge a small fortune.

[MisterJB]

Asking someone who was one of the best friends of Emperor Drakon, a man so revered by the Chantry that his name is up there with Andraste, a man whose name is revered in Chantry circles as well as not only an Inquisitor but also important to the Seekers,

 

and a person who is a firsthand witness to the Seekers swearing never, ever to use tranquility on mages permanently, and that they swore an oath that it would never be abused as it has been, by the Seekers and templars both. 

 

As someone who was there at the founding and witnessed the founding principles, and best friend of Emperor Drakon, I'd say he's more than enough for an authority, despite being a mage.

It's not because he is a mage, it's because he has been asleep for 700 years.

Realistically, we shouldn't even be able to understand each other because languages evolve.

He is not an authority on what sacrifices may or may not have needed to be made in the next seven centuries.

 

Also, what he says is that he believed spreading such a solution (that is, making mages Tranquil permanently) would lead to abuse and the Seekers promised it wouldn't. They did not promise they wouldn't make mages Tranquil permanently.

 

People like Alrik abused it but in seven centuries, obviously some bad eggs will fall through the cracks.

[Mihura]

I would probably be born on Rivain so being in the circle wouldn't mean much in therms of less freedom.

[dragonflight288]

It's not because he is a mage, it's because he has been asleep for 700 years.

Realistically, we shouldn't even be able to understand each other because languages evolve.

He is not an authority on what sacrifices may or may not have needed to be made in the next seven centuries.

 

Also, what he says is that he believed spreading such a solution (that is, making mages Tranquil permanently) would lead to abuse and the Seekers promised it wouldn't. They did not promise they wouldn't make mages Tranquil permanently.

 

People like Alrik abused it but in seven centuries, obviously some bad eggs will fall through the cracks.

 

And yet the very moment Cassandra informed him that mages were being made tranquil permanently is when Ameridan lashes out at the Seekers of his own time and starts talking about the abuse of the rite.

 

That doesn't leave much room for interpretation on what he considers abusing it. And when Inquisitor Adaar and Cassandra told him we were reforming the Seekers and seeking to end the practice, he thanks us.

 

What I think we're discussing now is the difference between the spirit of what he said vs the letter of what he's saying. 

 

EDIT: Yes, I get what you're saying about how language should have shifted after 800 years of being bound in time, but we are looking at someone who was there for the founding of the Chantry, and represents the principles upon which the modern Chantry was founded. 

Modifié par dragonflight288, 16 avril 2015 - 01:19 .

[MisterJB]

Their turn to political hackery instead of fulfilling their actual mandate. Refusing to work with mages as collaborators and allies even after their achievements in the Inquisition and the second Blight. This would, in turn, corrupt the idea of the Circle as a mutually beneficial arrangement to a prisoner/guard dynamic.

Their actual mandate being to protect people from the dangers of magic which the Circle does.

Your second point is more valid. I believe it was needed in order to keep the emotional distance necessary but, I see your point.

 

 

It's not debatable. Even with the most blatant example of Templars using Tranquility at Kirkwall, the Seekers did nothing.

You're right, it's not.
One Templar, not even a Seeker, abusing it and failing to be noticed does not equal the Seekers abusing the Rite. At most, negligence.

[Xilizhra]

And yet the very moment Cassandra informed him that mages were being made tranquil permanently is when Ameridan lashes out at the Seekers of his own time and starts talking about the abuse of the rite.

 

That doesn't leave much room for interpretation on what he considers abusing it. And when Inquisitor Adaar and Cassandra told him we were reforming the Seekers and seeking to end the practice, he thanks us.

 

What I think we're discussing now is the difference between the spirit of what he said vs the letter of what he's saying. 

What does Ameridan say if you disband the Seekers?

[dragonflight288]

What does Ameridan say if you disband the Seekers?

 

I have no idea. I've only played Jaws of Hakkon once with Cassandra reforming the Seekers in my party. 

 

It's worth trying out, or looking up on youtube to find the answer though. 

 

I just beat the game and explored every single area and tried to do every single quest. I'm kind of burnt out right now. I can't be bothered to motivate myself to play again just to find out what a DLC character says late in the game for a single decision for a companion. Giving myself a bit of a break. 

[The Baconer]

Their actual mandate being to protect people from the dangers of magic which the Circle does.

 

Their mandate was to act as overseers for both sides and ensure the stability of the system, which they didn't. Lives were lost or endangered throughout Thedas because of this.

 

 

Your second point is more valid. I believe it was needed in order to keep the emotional distance necessary but, I see your point.

 

They don't have to maintain an emotional distance if they are both working toward the same goal, from within the same organization. There is Templar work and then there is Seeker work.

 

You're right, it's not.
One Templar, not even a Seeker, abusing it and failing to be noticed does not equal the Seekers abusing the Rite. At most, negligence.

 

Meredith was already using Tranquility as a punishment, Alrik's further insubordinate perversion of the Rite is another matter entirely. Of course, the Seekers didn't bother to address this, or anything else that was happening in Kirkwall.

 

So, yes, Ameridan's fears quite tangibly came true, and the Seekers in their laxity promoted it.

[Master Warder Z_]

Except for Lanaya's dialogue.

Considering that the practice in question was introduced two games later, it's a minor retcon

[Xilizhra]

Considering that the practice in question was introduced two games later, it's a minor retcon

It was also stated to not be universal, so again, you have no reason to believe there was any retcon.

[dragonflight288]

Considering that the practice in question was introduced two games later, it's a minor retcon

 

It hardly counts as a retcon when a dalish inquisitor can equivocally state that their clan never gave up mages. 

[Augustei]

"No man is free, only children and fools believe otherwise" -Tywin Badass Mofo Lannister
 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

No mages that we see and talk to (aside from Aneirin). You're using absence of evidence as evidence of absence in regards to the mages, and Lanaya's dialogue implies that they weren't killed, while nothing whatsoever implies that they were.

The attacks Elora uses if you attempt to wipe out the clan also provide evidence that they weren't, by the way.

[Boost32]

Thanks for including the people I forgot.
 
I apologize if I was unclear about Carver. I meant to include him as an example of a decent templar who didn't cause problems.

You forgot Agatha.
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Agatha

[MisterJB]

Their mandate was to act as overseers for both sides and ensure the stability of the system, which they didn't. Lives were lost or endangered throughout Thedas because of this.

They may have failed to prevent the war but failure does not imply abandonment of duty.

They failed because they entered into conflict with the Divine but given the decisions she was making, there was no option but to confront her.

 

 

 

The Baconer, on 16 Apr 2015 - 02:30 AM, said:

They don't have to maintain an emotional distance if they are both working toward the same goal, from within the same organization. There is Templar work and then there is Seeker work.

 

Just as there are members of an organization and then there are contacts outside of it. In Dawn of the Seeker, Byron and Cassandra both worked with mages and that didn't require the to wear the black armour. Which they might not even be capable due to how it is implied curing Tranquility doesn't give a mage special abilities.

 

Would you trust a mage to learn of the secret of Tranquility and not become a liability, for instance? Have you considered that, perhaps, the Seekers and mages like Ameridan always had different goals from the very beginning? Maybe there is a reason he was never a Seeker.

 

 

 

Meredith was already using Tranquility as a punishment, Alrik's further insubordinate perversion of the Rite is another matter entirely. Of course, the Seekers didn't bother to address this, or anything else that was happening in Kirkwall.

 

So, yes, Ameridan's fears quite tangibly came true, and the Seekers in their laxity promoted it.

 

When did Meredith use the Rite as punishment?

 

And yes, they missed Alrik. Tragic but it happens.

[Ashagar]

Cassandra was Tranquil for a year.

 

Incorrect she was only tranquil for a moment at the very end of her vigil and that's when the faith spirit that had attracted by her year fasting and of focusing on nothing but faith touched her breaking the tranquility. Its stated several times, when the dialogue between the inquisitor and her talking about the seeker ritual after she receives the seeker book and in the banter between her and Solas about the issues trying to cure the tranquil.

[Boost32]

When did Meredith use the Rite as punishment?

She used it if you send Grace and her fellow mages to the Circle.

[The Baconer]

They may have failed to prevent the war but failure does not imply abandonment of duty.

They failed because they entered into conflict with the Divine but given the decisions she was making, there was no option but to confront her.

 

No, the admittance that they abandoned their duty implies the abandonment of duty. (Cassandra: We did nothing because we just assumed Meredith had things on lock)

 

Then after the war the entire Templar order is almost destroyed because thanks to them.

 

 

Just as there are members of an organization and then there are contacts outside of it. In Dawn of the Seeker, Byron and Cassandra both worked with mages and that didn't require the to wear the black armour. Which they might not even be capable due to how it is implied curing Tranquility doesn't give a mage special abilities.

 

I don't know of any implications regarding that. I don't care that much about it anyway because I don't think it's even necessary to have every member go through with the vigil.

 

Would you trust a mage to learn of the secret of Tranquility and not become a liability, for instance? Have you considered that, perhaps, the Seekers and mages like Ameridan always had different goals from the very beginning? Maybe there is a reason he was never a Seeker.

 

Would you trust a Seeker? After the formation of the Templars and the Chantry, the only member of the organization to even know of the application was the Lord Seeker themselves.

 

As a consequence of this secrecy, the revelation totally mind-fluxed Lucius, and to say that he became a liability is beyond an understatement. It also probably had the same affect on others before him, given that the Order of the Fiery Promise has surfaced and resurfaced multiple times throughout history.

 

 

When did Meredith use the Rite as punishment?

 

Maddox.

[Patchwork]

I hate the 3 mage retcon and I hope it gets re-retconned to be in line with DAO and DA2 but it has to be said the situation in that clan is unique. The curse extended Zathrian life and it seemed like he's been the Keeper for all that time. In that situation he'd almost have to let the other mages stick around because otherwise people would start to grumble.

 

Regaining immortality is a great thing until your child is being sent away because of that one mage who just refuses to die.

 

Life is easier for Zathrian if he has a 'more the merrier!' attitude towards the number of mages in the clan.    

[MisterJB]

Incorrect she was only tranquil for a moment at the very end of her vigil and that's when the faith spirit that had attracted by her year fasting and of focusing on nothing but faith touched her breaking the tranquility. Its stated several times, when the dialogue between the inquisitor and her talking about the seeker ritual after she receives the seeker book and in the banter between her and Solas about the issues trying to cure the tranquil.

That is unlikely. The codex entry states that the rite is needed to achieve the peace of mind needed to draw a spirit of faith.

If the rite lasted only for a few minutes, the months of fasting are pointless.

[MisterJB]

No, the admittance that they abandoned their duty implies the abandonment of duty. (Cassandra: We did nothing because we just assumed Meredith had things on lock)

 

Then after the war the entire Templar order is almost destroyed because thanks to them.

They didn't abandon their duty. They investigated the situation and wrongfully believed Meredith had things well in hand.

And Lucius is a traitor.

 

 

 

I don't know of any implications regarding that. I don't care that much about it anyway because I don't think it's even necessary to have every member go through with the vigil.

The first mage who tried it, failed. It may have been an isolated case but since Pharamond didn't gain any abilities, it seems to be the norm.

 

Then there is no real reason to have mages in the Seekers when they can just work with it without being members.

 

 

 

Would you trust a Seeker? After the formation of the Templars and the Chantry, the only member of the organization to even know of the application was the Lord Seeker themselves.

 

As a consequence of this secrecy, the revelation totally mind-fluxed Lucius, and to say that he became a liability is beyond an understatement. It also probably had the same affect on others before him, given that the Order of the Fiery Promise has surfaced and resurfaced multiple times throughout history.

More than I would trust a mage, yes. I can't imagine even Wynne would not react drastically over it.

 

As you say, the Order has resurfaced many times without being a real threat. It was just extremely bad luck someone like Lucius became Lord Seeker precisely when Corypheus was enacting his plans.

 

 

Maddox.

Yeah, I figured you would use him.

Do we know if he was Harrowed? It could be a Jowan situation.

 

 

 

She used it if you send Grace and her fellow mages to the Circle.

I know she kills a few if you have them surrender in Act 1.

Are they made Tranquil if captured in Act 2?