She's a mage with the potential to change the system and instead uses her fellow mages as capital to earn herself power and prestige. Plus she's an Orlesian politician.
Power and prestige equals influence. I don't know how she could change the system without it. Plus even though her motives are selfish her potential coronation as divine sets the precedent for mages to gain positions of power, and hold titles outside the Circle system.
Give me liberty or give me death!
Refusing to be herded back into their prisons is not "going rogue."
Refusing to go back to their "prisons"
burning the Ferelden Hinterlands to a crisp along with those who live in them....
Refusing to go back to their "prisons"
burning the Ferelden Hinterlands to a crisp along with those who live in them....
What kind of opressive world is this where mages aren't free
to become the gods they know they are and where worthless peasant do not acknowledge the world is their to conquer?
Actual codex entries.
http://dragonage.wik..._Apostate_Mages
Give me liberty or give me death!
There's a difference?
Yes it is, they are breaking the law, and I wasnt taking about it, I was talking on how she offered to help the Inquisition against Corypheus and even if she don't get what she wanted she well not betray you or abuse her magic and give a lame excuse like " we had no other choice ". She lives by their ideals while the rebel mages don't.Refusing to be herded back into their prisons is not "going rogue."Vivienne setting herself up as the law and then complying with her own will isn't anything praiseworthy.
People are over hasty in citing Kirkwall as a minority example, when we know that the system can be abused in most circles.
The Chantry sister near the fire in haven, telling the other sister of "the things those Templars did when they thought [she] wasn't looking," in a chilled tone. The situation in the white spire, Cole's story of extreme neglect, even Knight-Commander Gregoir--an example of the a reasonable Templar--wants to punish a loyalist mage who tricked Jowan at First Enchanter Irving's bidding.
The most extreme thing about Kirkwall was the fact that Meredith's reign of terror affected Templars negatively as well as mages, and admittedly her willingness to slaughter them for relatively minor infractions, or crimes that they had no part in.
But in most circles the power that Templars wield over Mages is fear based and easy to exploit. Even Vivienne has some dark memories of those conditions.
People are over hasty in citing Kirkwall as a minority example, when we know that the system can be abused in most circles.
The Chantry sister near the fire in haven, telling the other sister of "the things those Templars did when they thought [she] wasn't looking," in a chilled tone. The situation in the white spire, Cole's story of extreme neglect, even Knight-Commander Gregoir--an example of the a reasonable Templar--wants to punish a loyalist mage who tricked Jowan at First Enchanter Irving's bidding.
The most extreme thing about Kirkwall was the fact that Meredith's reign of terror affected Templars negatively as well as mages, and admittedly her willingness to slaughter them for relatively minor infractions, or crimes that they had no part in.
But in most circles the power that Templars wield over Mages is fear based and easy to exploit. Even Vivienne has some dark memories of those conditions.
People are over hasty in citing Kirkwall as a minority example, when we know that the system can be abused in most circles.
The Chantry sister near the fire in haven, telling the other sister of "the things those Templars did when they thought [she] wasn't looking," in a chilled tone. The situation in the white spire, Cole's story of extreme neglect, even Knight-Commander Gregoir--an example of the a reasonable Templar--wants to punish a loyalist mage who tricked Jowan at First Enchanter Irving's bidding.
The most extreme thing about Kirkwall was the fact that Meredith's reign of terror affected Templars negatively as well as mages, and admittedly her willingness to slaughter them for relatively minor infractions, or crimes that they had no part in.
But in most circles the power that Templars wield over Mages is fear based and easy to exploit. Even Vivienne has some dark memories of those conditions.
Don't forget how Asunder and comments from Samson and Thrask both show how all it takes is one bad knight-commander or higher and boom, a potentially liberal circle becomes an oppressive prison
The Chantry sister near the fire in haven, telling the other sister of "the things those Templars did when they thought [she] wasn't looking," in a chilled tone.
Undoubtedly, there will be abusive Templars everywhere, as often as there are violent mages, but let's be fair, that Chantry Sister is as idiotic and naive as they come. Good intentioned, yes, but she doesn't seem to be aware of the realities of Thedas.
For instance, she once ssaid that she believed the "Light of the Maker should never have been spread with a sword" and I began wondering if she had ever even been inside a Chantry or read Andraste's history.
If she is against Andraste's methods, I would suggest she should approach Corypheus without a sword, see what happens.
And all it takes is one bad mage and boom, a potentially liberal circle breaks a desolate graveyard.Don't forget how Asunder and comments from Samson and Thrask both show how all it takes is one bad knight-commander or higher and boom, a potentially liberal circle becomes an oppressive prison
People are over hasty in citing Kirkwall as a minority example, when we know that the system can be abused in most circles.
Yes, these Hogwarts Circles are fictional. Even Ferelden's, which is usually cited as liberal, had plenty of abuses. One mage escaping resulted in mages never seeing the light of day except for special dispensations. Even high-security prisons in the US allow death row inmates an hour a day of yard time.
That point is undermined by the fact the person who says it, Finn, was outside of the Circle at the time and all he had to do was ask for permission.
How very unreasonable of Templars to want to know where the mages are going and why. Why, we should just let them come and go as they please.
Undoubtedly, there will be abusive Templars everywhere, as often as there are violent mages,
This right here, is what baffles me. Yes, there are good Templars and bad mages, but the notion of comparing them evenly just doesn't work. While I'm the first to admit that the Chantry system subjugates Templars through lyrium addiction, Templars still have the choice to stop being Templars, difficult though that route may be.
Mages are just people born with their power. The only option they have to stop being what they are is tranquility. It doesn't compare, not as neatly pro Templar arguments usually suggest.
but let's be fair, that Chantry Sister is as idiotic and naive as they come. Good intentioned, yes, but she doesn't seem to be aware of the realities of Thedas.
For instance, she once ssaid that she believed the "Light of the Maker should never have been spread with a sword" and I began wondering if she had ever even been inside a Chantry or read Andraste's history.
*Snip*
If she is against Andraste's methods, I would suggest she should approach Corypheus without a sword, see what happens.
She's aware of the realities of the circle she was inside of, however. I think that your perspective on idealism is overly harsh, but I'll grant you that her optimism might not serve her well when it comes to applying it practically in Thedas (trying to approach Corypheus without a sword).
Your take on her comment, however, is tailored to suit your opinion more than it is to reflect hers. I'm inclined to doubt that she's unaware of Andraste's actions against Tevinter, or that she would disapprove of them. Much more likely, she's referring to the actions of Andraste's followers after her death. Much more likely, she believes that there are times to take up a sword (such as against Corypheus) and times not to do so (such as an Exalted March on the Dales).
This right here, is what baffles me. Yes, there are good Templars and bad mages, but the notion of comparing them evenly just doesn't work. While I'm the first to admit that the Chantry system subjugates Templars through lyrium addiction, Templars still have the choice to stop being Templars, difficult though that route may be.
Mages are just people born with their power. The only option they have to stop being what they are is tranquility. It doesn't compare, not as neatly pro Templar arguments usually suggest.
There are many ways in which it doesn't compare. For instance, Templars can't bind people's soul in the Fade in order to torture them for eternity.
Regardless of that, the point is that just as there are bad Templars in good Circle, so there are violent mages in said Circles.
She's aware of the realities of the circle she was inside of, however. I think that your perspective on idealism is overly harsh, but I'll grant you that her optimism might not serve her well when it comes to applying it practically in Thedas (trying to approach Corypheus without a sword).
Your take on her comment, however, is tailored to suit your opinion more than it is to reflect hers. I'm inclined to doubt that she's unaware of Andraste's actions against Tevinter, or that she would disapprove of them. Much more likely, she's referring to the actions of Andraste's followers after her death. Much more likely, she believes that there are times to take up a sword (such as against Corypheus) and times not to do so (such as an Exalted March on the Dales).
The Exalted March on the Dales being called after Val Royeaux and other cities were sacked by elves. It seems to me swords were needed in that situation.
Considerly how naive she is, her opinion is less than reliable when she won't even give us an examples of what the Templars were doing.
It's just as likely they did something completely necessary and justifiable and she found it to be "mean".
Or even that her own sympathies colored what she saw. After all, she claims some Templars did shameful things; which I believe, I certainly won't claim all Templars are saints; but her only mention of mages is of how fervorously they prayed.
I know if I were strong enough to pass a harrowing I should be considered responsible enough to be able to live at large in the world with the rest of society. If Thedas is going to have a circle make them like an academy like in Teventer where you teach a mage to master his or her mind and teach skills to prevent possession as well as educate the mages in normal school subjects. Once you pass your final (harrowing) you should be able to leave the circle to find a job or enter university or get your MRS degree or whatever like a normal person. Personally I do not feel that is is fair to lock someone up for something that might happen to them or something they might do. Until that person commits a crime or become possessed, give a person the benefit of the doubt, like is given to everyone who is not magical.
I also feel a mage should be able to attempt their harrowing more than once. And if they fail say three times then you stay in the circle and are only made tranquil if there are signs of issues.
I certainly would want to study but I also don't want to be locked up for the rest of my life for a crime I might do (or which I apparently already did by just being born the way I am) and thus be rendered under a system which is way too easily abused for the benefit of the Chantry/Templars. If it was a lenient Circle where I would still be allowed to visit my family/friends and pursue work/activities outside, I wouldn't have that big of a problem but, alas, that most likely wouldn't be the case. I'll have no power over what kind of Circle I'll end up to and even if I did have the fortune to get into a "good one", the circumstances could always change depending on who's currently in power. Mage Hawke's situation would be ideal since I'd still have the education but also be allowed to pursue my own life. Living with the secrecy and risks would be a small price to pay.
Still, this all would depend of the situation. Who knows, in DA verse my family or the community I live in could turn up to be very against magic (where the mob wants to lynch me just because I kindled a fire without matches) or maybe I would belong to a non-desirable social class where my future is pretty much decided for me already. The Circle could actually sound like a very decent option then.
But in overall: yes, I would want to be free.
Considerly how naive she is, her opinion is less than reliable when she won't even give us an examples of what the Templars were doing. It's just as likely they did something completely necessary and justifiable and she found it to be "mean".
Or even that her own sympathies colored what she saw. After all, she claims some Templars did shameful things; which I believe, I certainly won't claim all Templars are saints; but her only mention of mages is of how fervorously they prayed.
Considering that they did it when they thought she wasn't looking, I'd say it's actually very unlikely that's the case.
As for her mention of the mages praying, that statement had important subtext. The chantry sister she was speaking to represented the bigotry inherent in the system. She represented the demonization of Mages and the assumption that they are inherently corrupt and "unholy." The mention of prayers was a counter that a Mage can be more devoutly Andrastian than a Templar, a fairly realistic approach for someone in an organization prone to idealizing--or even romanticizing--the Templar role. She realizes that Mages are just as likely to be innocent as anyone else, which is rare enough in the chantry to be remarkable, but that doesn't mean that she doesn't realize the opposite is also possible.
For instance, Templars can't bind people's soul in the Fade in order to torture them for eternity.
No, they do so out of a sense of duty and faith.
Considering that they did it when they thought she wasn't looking, I'd say it's actually very unlikely that's the case.
As for her mention of the mages praying, that statement had important subtext. The chantry sister she was speaking to represented the bigotry inherent in the system. She represented the demonization of Mages and the assumption that they are inherently corrupt and "unholy." The mention of prayers was a counter that a Mage can be more devoutly Andrastian than a Templar, a fairly realistic approach for someone in an organization prone to idealizing--or even romanticizing--the Templar role. She realizes that Mages are just as likely to be innocent as anyone else, which is rare enough in the chantry to be remarkable, but that doesn't mean that she doesn't realize the opposite is also possible.
Let's say this Chantry sister had been in Kirkwall and walked in on Cullen interrogating Wilmod.
She has already given her opinion on swords so, it seems likely she would have censured Cullen. And yet, we know he had very good reasons for what he was doing.
However, even if we assume they were doing something illegal, which is possible, she is evidently biased. If she is seeing Templars doing what they shouldn't but not mages, either she is not looking or more willing to forgive transgressions. Walk to the Hinterlands, there's plenty of mages there I suspect would make her wish for a Templar standing between them and her.
That is unlikely. The codex entry states that the rite is needed to achieve the peace of mind needed to draw a spirit of faith.
If the rite lasted only for a few minutes, the months of fasting are pointless.
Faith is a emotional thing, someone who was tranquil would be utterly incapable of feeling faith to attract a faith spirit. What the seekers do is fast and focus on faith for a year while empting themselves of other all other emotion. Its this focusing on the powerful feeling of faith that attracts the faith spirit and only at the end of the year long rite do they become tranquil which is what draws the faith spirit to touch them curing their momentary tranquility.
Its a much more slow drawn out process perhaps more akin to emotionally burning themselves out or what some Buddhist monks do when they mummify themselves alive rather than the crude method of simply slapping a suppression rune on their heads like what the mages get in their rite.
Faith is a emotional thing, someone who was tranquil would be utterly incapable of feeling faith to attract a faith spirit. What the seekers do is fast and focus on faith for a year while empting themselves of other all other emotion. Its this focusing on the powerful feeling of faith that attracts the faith spirit and only at the end of the year long rite do they become tranquil which is what draws the faith spirit to touch them curing their momentary tranquility.
Its a much more slow drawn out process perhaps more akin to emotionally burning themselves out or what some Buddhist monks do when they mummify themselves alive rather than the crude method of simply slapping a suppression rune on their heads like what the mages get in their rite.
"The rite was required to achieve the true peace that could draw a spirit of faith from the depths of the Fade. A difficult task, considering a Tranquil mind is all but invisible to these beings."
As you can see, the codex specifically states the rite is needed to attract the spirits of faith. Meaning, they attract the spirits when they are already Tranquil.
Guest_Faerunner_*
I'm amazed at how many people try to dodge the question or move the goalposts by saying "I'd want to be in one of the more liberal/levnient Circles." That wouldn't be your choice to make. The Circles and Templars wield all the power. They decide where you live, how you're treated in there, whether you can have any contact in the outside world, and whether you can leave or transfer if you wanted. If they stonewalled you, that's it--you obey them unless you want to be imprisoned, killed, or made Tranquil.
Yes, I'd want to be free. Free to make choices, free to decide where I want to live, free to leave if the authority figures in the place I'm living are abusive or tyrannical, free to report on abuse, corruption, or tyranny without fear of repercussions. (Remember that Templar who said, "If you tell anyone, I'll say you used blood magic"?)
Since the Circle and Qunari operate under, "You live where I say you live, behave the way I want you to behave, say what I want you to say (if I let you say anything at all), think the way I want you to think, and learn only what I want/let you learn--and since I'm watching you at all times and will kill you the second you try to run away, you have no choice but to comply," then I wouldn't want to be subject to their system.
(Remember that Templar who said, "If you tell anyone, I'll say you used blood magic"?)
That point is undermined by the fact the person who says it, Finn, was outside of the Circle at the time and all he had to do was ask for permission.
How very unreasonable of Templars to want to know where the mages are going and why. Why, we should just let them come and go as they please.
It's true. We saw this with Vivienne as well, Wynne, and, to a lesser extent, with Bethany, before Kirkwall's Circle went crazy. Mages who don't cause trouble get the freedom to go out and do things, they just ask permission.
The troublemakers are the problem
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