858 réponses à ce sujet

[Lady Artifice]

That's right, guys. Don't think for a second that mages and mundanes can form equitable relationships! Gotta analyze the Circle through the bleakest lens possible...

 

... except of course when mages live next door to mundanes. Then you're not allowed to believe they can ever be in conflict, for... some reason.   

 

A good point.

 

I think situations like Gregoir and Irving might be more rare than the combative and tense relations we usually see between the two sides, but there are other exceptions.

 

That mage at the crossroads in the Hinterlands. She had Templar friends and a Templar lover, whom she'd been friends with for years before their relationship turned romantic. The lore has given us plenty of Templars who are portrayed positively, and capable of compassion for their charges. 

[LOLandStuff]

I'd make a fortune selling tin foil hats to protect your mind from Blood Magic.

[Addai]

Now, what do all but two of those mages have in common? They were all trustworthy.

The Circle is not trustworthy to determine who's trustworthy.
 
 

If you intend to use snark, At least try to include some arguments in it, like I do. At the moment, you're using it as a poor substitute. It's not compelling or witty.
Let's see, you are opposed to mages being able to control which mages leave the Circle, for how long and what they intend to do, yes?

It's incredulity, that you can write something like "I guess you think mages should be allowed to go where they please" un-ironically.

The answer is- yes. Because they're human beings.

[In Exile]

The Circle is not trustworthy to determine who's trustworthy.
 
 It's incredulity, that you can write something like "I guess you think mages should be allowed to go where they please" un-ironically.

The answer is- yes. Because they're human beings.

Not all of them.

 

#pendaticsnark

[Addai]

 
#pendaticsnark

I just have to capture this spelling error before that bit of irony goes down the memory hole. 

[In Exile]

I just have to capture this spelling error before that bit of irony goes down the memory hole. 

 

Forever and all time I will insist that was on purpose. 

[MisterJB]

And I find it unbelievable people will place abstract concepts over the safety of others.
Yes, they are human beings. And we havê enshrined in our laws situations where we can imprison people through no fault of their own for their safety and that of others.


The next time some kid pulls a Connor, you explain to the grieving families why that one person's freedom was so much more important than the lives of their loved ones.

[In Exile]

Yes, they are human beings. And we havê enshrined in our laws situations where we can imprison people through no fault of their own for their safety and that of others.

 

Hold up. The manner in which people can be imprisoned for the sake of others IRL is quite complicated and involves a great deal of procedural safeguards and due process. That's obviously tied up with a lot of modern social and political developments, but the same justification for IRL detention can't work with a fictional setting because of the presence of safeguards. 

 

We don't have a process of mass detention of groups of people from, effectively, their birth. 

[QueenCrow]

The way this discussion is going, with discussion of real life detention for the safety of others, reminds me of when the United States put Japanese-American citizens, men, women, and children, in internment camps during WWII.  It's generally regarded now as a shameful episode of paranoia in history.

 

That said, I think if I were a mage in southern Thedas, I would like to have supervision of someone who could thwart my mistakes - I make them and am introspective enough to know they can be ugly.  Also, in dealing with something dangerous, I'd like to have instruction and supervision, which I think isn't opposed to freedom.

 

What I would change is the doctrine or religious/ social construct that the ones supervising mages (Templars) aren't allowed to care about their charges.  The absence of caring turns a protective counterpart into a prison guard, which is opposed to freedom.

[The Hierophant]

To answer the op, who knows? There's so many variables that would affect a person's individual experience within the Circle, and shape their political beliefs. There's a reason fraternaties like the Isolationists, Libertarians and Loyalists exist.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The way this discussion is going, with discussion of real life detention for the safety of others, reminds me of when the United States put Japanese-American citizens, men, women, and children, in internment camps during WWII.  It's generally regarded now as a shameful episode of paranoia in history.

That's probably because it was an episode of shameful paranoia. Being Japanese doesn't mean you can shoot fire from your hands or turn abomination; therefore even if a Japanese person was disloyal to the US (and in case this actually needs to be stated: the logic to claim they were ties my brain in knots) they could be handled by other means.

[dragonflight288]

The way this discussion is going, with discussion of real life detention for the safety of others, reminds me of when the United States put Japanese-American citizens, men, women, and children, in internment camps during WWII.  It's generally regarded now as a shameful episode of paranoia in history.

 

That said, I think if I were a mage in southern Thedas, I would like to have supervision of someone who could thwart my mistakes - I make them and am introspective enough to know they can be ugly.  Also, in dealing with something dangerous, I'd like to have instruction and supervision, which I think isn't opposed to freedom.

 

What I would change is the doctrine or religious/ social construct that the ones supervising mages (Templars) aren't allowed to care about their charges.  The absence of caring turns a protective counterpart into a prison guard, which is opposed to freedom.

 

You may like the supervision should things go bad or one of the apprentices get over anxious, but would you trust them with so much power in your day to day life?

[QueenCrow]

You may like the supervision should things go bad or one of the apprentices get over anxious, but would you trust them with so much power in your day to day life?

 

Not in an atmosphere of distrust and derision, as in Kirkwall's Gallows for instance.  I can easily see rebellion against such a situation and I guess that's why it's so plausible in our game.

 

On the other hand, as a real life comparison, I submitted myself to military training once upon a time and in dealing with dangerous things, I was under the direction, instruction, and supervision of people who had a lot of power over every aspect of my day to day life.  So, I suppose my answer is yes, I would trust someone with that kind of power in some cases.  The obvious difference in that is that I don't have to spend the rest of my life on base because I learned ways to proverbially shoot fire out of my hands.  I'm going to think that over some more because it's a really interesting question you've asked.  

 

Can you think of any situation in which you'd trust someone with that kind of power over you?  And to what degree? 

 

@Riverdaleswhiteflash - I'm going to think about what you're saying because I'm not really clear - it's late and I'm suffering from brain knots also:) - but would like to understand you before responding to what you've said.

[Xilizhra]

Undoubtedly, there will be abusive Templars everywhere, as often as there are violent mages, but let's be fair, that Chantry Sister is as idiotic and naive as they come. Good intentioned, yes, but she doesn't seem to be aware of the realities of Thedas.

For instance, she once ssaid that she believed the "Light of the Maker should never have been spread with a sword" and I began wondering if she had ever even been inside a Chantry or read Andraste's history.

 

 

 

 

If she is against Andraste's methods, I would suggest she should approach Corypheus without a sword, see what happens.

I don't think the Chant of Light has ever claimed that Andraste was perfect. In addition to the fact that Andraste's war was more about a large-scale slave revolt than outright religious conquest.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

@Riverdaleswhiteflash - I'm going to think about what you're saying because I'm not really clear - it's late and I'm suffering from brain knots also:) - but would like to understand you before responding to what you've said.

The major differences between internment and the Circle system that have me signing off on the latter (if it was done properly) but not the former are...

 

A: Japanese Americans had to form intent to kill a whole bunch of Americans, whereas the story of the Kirkwall First Enchanter as told in the Codex and of Connor as seen in-game prove that mages who don't want to go on homicidal rampages can find themselves doing so anyway. There was no evidence that Japanese Americans were at all inclined to snap and start imperiling anyone, but we've seen evidence that such things happen to mages.

B: The counter-argument that everyone makes when fear of superbeings in fiction is compared to fear of Japanese-Americans or Jewish people or anyone else who's been feared as a danger is... persecuted minorities aren't superbeings, and are no more scary if they decide to be a threat than anyone else. Being more afraid of people who were born Japanese than of other races is unjustified. Being afraid of mages is entirely rational.

 

Now, neither of these on their own would make me sign off on the Circle system. Someone who has a somewhat higher than normal chance of snapping and going on a murder-rampage but has no powers to make themselves more effective can be captured or killed when/if they snap. Someone with powers who has control of their faculties can be policed by police with powers, and maybe have the cops keep tabs on them. It's at the point where the same characteristics occur simultaneously that I start to think maybe they should live someplace reasonably far away from the mundane population.

[Xilizhra]

The major differences between internment and the Circle system that have me signing off on the latter (if it was done properly) but not the former are...

 

A: Japanese Americans had to form intent to kill a whole bunch of Americans, whereas the story of the Kirkwall First Enchanter as told in the Codex and of Connor as seen in-game prove that mages who don't want to go on homicidal rampages can find themselves doing so anyway. There was no evidence that Japanese Americans were at all inclined to snap and start imperiling anyone, but we've seen evidence that such things happen to mages.

B: The counter-argument that everyone makes when fear of superbeings in fiction is compared to fear of Japanese-Americans or Jewish people or anyone else who's been feared as a danger is... persecuted minorities aren't superbeings, and are no more scary if they decide to be a threat than anyone else. Being more afraid of people who were born Japanese than of other races is unjustified. Being afraid of mages is entirely rational.

 

Now, neither of these on their own would make me sign off on the Circle system. Someone who has a somewhat higher than normal chance of snapping and going on a murder-rampage but has no powers to make themselves more effective can be captured or killed when/if they snap. Someone with powers who has control of their faculties can be policed by police with powers, and maybe have the cops keep tabs on them. It's at the point where the same characteristics occur simultaneously that I start to think maybe they should live someplace reasonably far away from the mundane population.

I don't think it can be done "properly," at least not by a body that governs them while not being members of the population being governed.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I don't think it can be done "properly," at least not by a body that governs them while not being members of the population being governed.

A group that is comprised of the population being governed has its own problems.

[Xilizhra]

A group that is comprised of the population being governed has its own problems.

Not the ones you brought up in your earlier summation. It's in every mage's best interest to not be possessed by demons; mages will find ways to protect themselves from demons even without the Chantry's rulership. It's simple self-interest, and it's much more reliable than religious dogma somehow not being abused.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Not the ones you brought up in your earlier summation. It's in every mage's best interest to not be possessed by demons; mages will find ways to protect themselves from demons even without the Chantry's rulership. It's simple self-interest, and it's much more reliable than religious dogma somehow not being abused.

That's fair. I do acknowledge that I have fewer problems with the mages policing themselves if they do something about this problem, and you're right that they'd be mad not to.

[Xilizhra]

That's fair. I do acknowledge that I have fewer problems with the mages policing themselves if they do something about this problem, and you're right that they'd be mad not to.

For everything the mage rebellion did wrong, what it didn't do was produce any abominations. I think the College of Enchanters will be reliable in this area.

[Hazegurl]

If the world of Thedas was real, and you were a mage, would you want to be free?

Yep but I would want to be rich and free.  Not some illiterate moron getting strung up by other illiterate morons. That's why I like Vivienne from the perspective of a regular mage.

[Ieldra]

@the topic:

The short answer is of course, yes. However, what does "free" mean in my specific situation? Some restrictions are of a kind that won't bother me, while others would make me want to fight to get rid of them. Taking into account what I know of myself, being under the rule of the Chantry and its templars would be one of the inacceptable elements. Meanwhile, being unable to move my home outside of a Circle may not be so bad, if the Circle is good enough of a home. Being unable to travel unaccompanied would be a serious inconvencience, with myself being something of a loner and an introvert, but I'd take any measure, including ones that risk my life, to destroy any phylactery someone would keep of me.

 

There's also the question of the price of freedom. I'm a city person, and having to live in the wilderness, devoid of any civilization (and its comforts) does not appeal. Some of the Circle's restrictions are of a kind that I would accept a lifestyle I don't like just to be rid of them, some might not be. 

   

So...most pre-Inquisition Circles are definitely places of which I would want to be free. Whether I would actually make an attempt to leave would depend on the details. Meanwhile, the idea of a "place for mages" has considerable appeal as well - for I would be a mage whose calling is magic, not someone who just happens to be mageborn but has different preferences. To be acceptable as a home, however, it would have to be independent from the Chantry, or any other religious organization. 

[Steelcan]

here's a question then

 

if you had to pick between a "normal" Circle, say Ferelden's pre-Uldred or being "free" in the context of Thedas what would you go for?

[Xilizhra]

here's a question then

 

if you had to pick between a "normal" Circle, say Ferelden's pre-Uldred or being "free" in the context of Thedas what would you go for?

I'd pick the College of Enchanters under Leliana. So, the latter.

[Steelcan]

I'd pick the College of Enchanters under Leliana. So, the latter.

*searches post for that option*

 

I don't think put that in there, it wasn't phrased as a question "do you want to live in your ideal state or not?", I gave two options, not two plus whatever you actually want