*searches post for that option*
I don't think put that in there, it wasn't phrased as a question "do you want to live in your ideal state or not?", I gave two options, not two plus whatever you actually want
You said "free in the context of Thedas." What I said was, in fact, that.
The major differences between internment and the Circle system that have me signing off on the latter (if it was done properly) but not the former are...
A: Japanese Americans had to form intent to kill a whole bunch of Americans, whereas the story of the Kirkwall First Enchanter as told in the Codex and of Connor as seen in-game prove that mages who don't want to go on homicidal rampages can find themselves doing so anyway. There was no evidence that Japanese Americans were at all inclined to snap and start imperiling anyone, but we've seen evidence that such things happen to mages.
B: The counter-argument that everyone makes when fear of superbeings in fiction is compared to fear of Japanese-Americans or Jewish people or anyone else who's been feared as a danger is... persecuted minorities aren't superbeings, and are no more scary if they decide to be a threat than anyone else. Being more afraid of people who were born Japanese than of other races is unjustified. Being afraid of mages is entirely rational.
Now, neither of these on their own would make me sign off on the Circle system. Someone who has a somewhat higher than normal chance of snapping and going on a murder-rampage but has no powers to make themselves more effective can be captured or killed when/if they snap. Someone with powers who has control of their faculties can be policed by police with powers, and maybe have the cops keep tabs on them. It's at the point where the same characteristics occur simultaneously that I start to think maybe they should live someplace reasonably far away from the mundane population.
I think I get what you're saying now. You're absolutely right, there are major differences between the internment of Japanese Americans during WWII by their own government and the forcible detention of mages in a fantasy world.
In looking at it, we can also find similarities. Hundreds of thousands of Japanese Americans, most of them citizens of the U.S. were forcibly removed from their homes and relocated to camps away from the general population because of the notion that they, by circumstance of their birth, posed a threat to the general population. This threat was assumed even without any indication that any of these people would actually harm others.
I see the same idea put forth toward relocating mages in a fantasy world, confining them away from the general population because of the threat they -may- pose due to circumstances of their birth, and not because they've actually proven they're harmful to others by committing harmful acts.
Not in an atmosphere of distrust and derision, as in Kirkwall's Gallows for instance. I can easily see rebellion against such a situation and I guess that's why it's so plausible in our game.
On the other hand, as a real life comparison, I submitted myself to military training once upon a time and in dealing with dangerous things, I was under the direction, instruction, and supervision of people who had a lot of power over every aspect of my day to day life. So, I suppose my answer is yes, I would trust someone with that kind of power in some cases. The obvious difference in that is that I don't have to spend the rest of my life on base because I learned ways to proverbially shoot fire out of my hands. I'm going to think that over some more because it's a really interesting question you've asked.
Can you think of any situation in which you'd trust someone with that kind of power over you? And to what degree?
Hmm, a position where I would trust someone with that much power.
Well, during the event of a huge emergency and we'd need someone to organize who does what, who takes care of where, like when my town got hit by a tornado last year.
Also, as a carpet cleaner, I've cleaned assisted living centers, including the places where they have the people with Alzheimer, and I did a job at a hospital where they (short-term) kept the mentally unsound to put it politely, so in instances where someone literally can't think for them self or mentally never matured, I'd want someone to have power over them to at least keep them from hurting themselves and hurting others.
Of course, I'd also want to vet each person given such power to to my utmost to limit the potential for abuse. Look at someone's character, work history and reputation, that sort of thing.
If I ever got to that point, I'd probably be too far gone to think about others having power over me like that.
When the tornado hit, I was happy to have someone organize things. This group of people mind the kids, this group of people clean up debris, the people with medical training tend to the wounded. It made things more efficient and the situation was dire enough that not many people threw a fit about "who was in charge."
I suppose personally, in most cases, unless I volunteer for something I don't want to be "forced" by some other authority on the details of how I'd live my life. My religion, my day-to-day hobbies, the career path I want to follow, these are choices that are mine to make. If I am found incapable of thinking for myself, accurately gauging risk vs reward of an action, or working out how my actions can affect others, then a certain level of power can be applied, on a case-by-case basis. The problem is whether or not I trust the people choosing the people to use that power.
I respect the military and law enforcement officers, but that does not mean I trust the bureaucrats making decisions above them, if you get where I'm coming from.
Just like I don't trust most politicians.
You said "free in the context of Thedas." What I said was, in fact, that.
"Pre Uldred" gives a qualifier for time, this is before BioWare's second favorite pet gets to sneeze in the direction of the Sunburst throne
"Pre Uldred" gives a qualifier for time, this is before BioWare's second favorite pet gets to sneeze in the direction of the Sunburst throne
Then I think it'd be most effective if I was in the Circle trying to advance the Libertarian cause.
here's a question then
if you had to pick between a "normal" Circle, say Ferelden's pre-Uldred or being "free" in the context of Thedas what would you go for?
. The Ferelden Circle is usually described as pretty lenient before the Blight irrcWell, "free" in the context of Thedas can mean a lot of things. I guess living in a "normal" circle (Ferelden was pretty bad though, maybe Ostwick or Monsimard) is better than living in an alienage for example. But you have also many mages (like Rhys or Bethany come to my mind) who would live a much more comfortable life outside the circle.
@ dragonflight288 -
I think I do get where you're coming from, and you've made a very important point about the difference between being forced to submit to regulations of your daily life and doing so voluntarily for some greater community good. That consideration is necessary for discussion on freedom. Thanks for bringing that point up. And thanks for taking time to answer the question I posed.
. The Ferelden Circle is usually described as pretty lenient before the Blight irrc
Too lenient.
Didn't stop dissent and a rebellion from brewing.
A rebellion made by a few libertarian extremist who were also a blood magic. Them being free would be worse.
Worse than what?
Than what happened at the Circle.
Oh. Possibly. Then again abominations running around and countless mages, Templars, apprentices and tranquil dead isn't exactly a great outcome. Pretty hard to do worse really.
And I find it unbelievable people will place abstract concepts over the safety of others.
Yes, they are human beings. And we havê enshrined in our laws situations where we can imprison people through no fault of their own for their safety and that of others.
The next time some kid pulls a Connor, you explain to the grieving families why that one person's freedom was so much more important than the lives of their loved ones.
If the circle was just a school, than maybe Connors mother would not be afraid to sent her son to be educated and learn to defend himself against demons.
Of course its not a great outcome, but imagine if Uldred and his cult were free and without any supervision, they would do worse than what they did at the Circle.
If the circle was just a school, than maybe Connors mother would not be afraid to sent her son to be educated and learn to defend himself against demons.
yes, Isolde is the picture of rational thought and foresight
Didn't stop dissent and a rebellion from brewing.
a rebellion forced on the Circle by Uldred and his conspirators, other members of the Circle seemed perfectly fine with it
I don't think 'cult' is the right word here, he had people who followed him but they weren't a 'cult'. Regardless we'll never know now.
Depends on the circle, but free food, education, a good health system are bonus even on our days.
Oh. Possibly. Then again abominations running around and countless mages, Templars, apprentices and tranquil dead isn't exactly a great outcome. Pretty hard to do worse really.
The same outcome taking place outside the strong walls of a Circle carries a much, much higher potential death-toll than it did within the Circle.
That is the point of the Circle. Well, one of the points, anyway. Disasters involving magic will happen. It is not a question of "if," but "when." When it does, the Circle ensures the damage is mitigated with Templars readily available and the location of the threat known to all (as opposed to it being out in the wilderness having no clue where).
Not all mages do that, true, but there is no way of knowing whom to trust and whom not to. So the Circle takes them all in, and later grants permission for the proven ones to leave. If a mage is not good enough to leave, well, how the Templars treat him/her is not even the worst thing they have to worry about.
a rebellion forced on the Circle by Uldred and his conspirators, other members of the Circle seemed perfectly fine with it
Perhaps but one of the reasons Uldred's rebellion got so out of hand was precisely because of the large number of mages in the Circle. Magical disasters are like natural disasters, it's never wise to put danger together, if there's a chance of a fire you don't want to put flammable materials right next to it. Otherwise I guess I agree.The same outcome taking place outside the strong walls of a Circle carries a much, much higher potential death-toll than it did within the Circle.
That is the point of the Circle. Well, one of the points, anyway. Disasters involving magic will happen. It is not a question of "if," but "when." When it does, the Circle ensures the damage is mitigated with Templars readily available and the location of the threat known to all (as opposed to it being out in the wilderness having no clue where).
Not all mages do that, true, but there is no way of knowing whom to trust and whom not to. So the Circle takes them all in, and later grants permission for the proven ones to leave. If a mage is not good enough to leave, well, how the Templars treat him/her is not even the worst thing they have to worry about.
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