858 réponses à ce sujet

[WardenWade]

This is a complex and intriguing question

 

Yes, mages absolutely deserve freedom as much as anyone else.  However, the rest of Thedas is hardly "free" in the most expansive sense of the word, I think, and the dream that many mages may have of life outside the Circle may not be what they imagine, any more than the dreams of a city elf regarding the mythical Dalish. 

 

Mages live in and work for the Circle, which also provides in many cases (and it certainly varies) a life as comfortable, or more so, than many mundanes enjoy.  Non-mages may not live in a Circle, but they may be slaves, or beholden to their lieges or employers, etc., for survival and prosperity.  Mages also have something lucrative to trade--magic--which a commoner does not.  Mages are overseen by templars, just as commoners are overseen--and sometimes overrun--by guardsmen, entitled nobles seeking tithes and more, etc.  Templars supervise mages and often take liberties, but they in turn are hobbled by the "lyrium leash" pressed on them, and no more free once they enter the order than anyone else (Cassandra notes that while mages have made their suffering known, templars never have).  Nobles like Celene feel as constrained by the circumstances of their births and their responsibilities as any mage.  And as Wynne notes, even the Chantry priesthood is not an easy or equal life.

 

And there is also the individual's desires to consider as well, as we are doing here.  What satisfies one mage, templar, laborer, etc., in terms of freedom may not be enough for another, or else too much.

 

Thedas is a world of grey areas, and of inequality--as I believe the devs have noted--and one in which, IMO, the concept of true freedom is frequently dubious and complicated.  I'm not certain if I have helped to answer your OP, Solace, but it is excellent food for thought.

 

TL;DR: "it's complicated"

[Hellion Rex]

I'm curious though as to what the Templars would make of this, and whether or not they'd even care to make the distinction. No matter what, Wynne is pretty much an anomaly, one that could very well be dealt with as a potential threat just the same.

They might have given her some leeway, particularly in Kinloch Hold, due to her pretty good track record.

[Lady Artifice]

I'm reasonably confident that the general Chantry policy on possession by a fade spirit would have led most Templars to slaughter Wynne upon discovery of her unusual situation.

[MisterJB]

Freeing mages will make them free. Free people can pursue their own happiness. It's been well established now that strong emotions draw spirits, and actually turn spirits into demons. Want to cause rage, envy and despair? Drive people to that point by imprisoning them and taking away any hope of a normal life.

Free people can be exploited, free people can be abused, free people can be threatened, free people can be injured, free people can starve, free people can freeze, free people can get sick, free people can involve themselves in thousands of different situations that cause distress and when a mage is the one placed under pressure, entire towns are threatened.

 

Are we relying on mages living perfect little lives in order to ensure the safety of people? That sounds effective.

[Xilizhra]

Free people can be exploited, free people can be abused, free people can be threatened, free people can be injured, free people can starve, free people can freeze, free people can get sick, free people can involve themselves in thousands of different situations that cause distress and when a mage is the one placed under pressure, entire towns are threatened.

 

Are we relying on mages living perfect little lives in order to ensure the safety of people? That sounds effective.

When the mages don't live in Hellmouths or in the middle of an abomination cascade, this doesn't seem to be a serious problem. The mage rebellion never had a single abomination, and that continued even after the Breach.

[Addai]

Free people can be exploited, free people can be abused, free people can be threatened, free people can be injured, free people can starve, free people can freeze, free people can get sick, free people can involve themselves in thousands of different situations that cause distress and when a mage is the one placed under pressure, entire towns are threatened.

 

Are we relying on mages living perfect little lives in order to ensure the safety of people? That sounds effective.

We're relying on mages to be people. Radical concept, I know.

[The Hierophant]

We're relying on mages to be people. Radical concept, I know.

They have to be better than people.

[MisterJB]

What the bloody hell does that even mean?
The number of violent and stupid things our species hás done is impossible to count.

[Xilizhra]

They have to be better than people.

As seen in Inquisition... no, they don't. They might have made bad choices politically, but they didn't create any magical problems by virtue of being mages.

[The Hierophant]

As seen in Inquisition... no, they don't. They might have made bad choices politically, but they didn't create any magical problems by virtue of being mages.

Of course they have to. All throughout the franchise we've seen mages being prone to their base emotions, and desires like the rest of the common people of Thedas, which leads to the abuse of magic. Southern mages collectively, due to public image issues, have to be better than that because they wield literal power that could negatively impact a community or ecosystem if misused.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Freeing mages will make them free. Free people can pursue their own happiness.

 

Which, of course, you are comparing to the pursuit of happiness in the modern day.

 

Don't.

 

With rare exceptions, the common folk do not simply work their way up into nobility. You have to be born into it, and the law already says that mages cannot be nobility. Even if we were to repeal that law and allow mages to reclaim their status, what about the rest (which would be most of them)? As a commoner, you are destined to live under worse conditions and have fewer privileges (virtually none) than you had before in the Circle. Which leads me to the next point...

 

This has been demonstrated over and over again in all the games, so if you're denying it then you're just in denial.

 
You know what else has been demonstrated over and over again? That mages living outside the Circle still become possessed.

The Circle is designed to offer a more comfortable life than what most people live in Thedas (only the nobility live better), so if a mage becomes possessed in the Circle, there is little reason to believe said mage would not have been corrupted outside of it.

And actually, what you claim about the Circle driving mages to possession has only been demonstrated in one game (just DA2, not all three of them). In Fereldan it was a mage who corrupted his peers, rooting from his conflict with... other mages. It is also generally accepted that the Kirkwall Circle is not functioning as a Circle should. Then again, Kirkwall is so ****ty that its Circle mages might still be living better than most!
 

Naturally it will also help if the populace unlearns their Chantry indoctrination about mages and magic, so that a normal life outside the Circle is possible.

 
> Unlearning the most-followed religious doctrine in Thedas.
 
Good luck with that.
 

Isn't luring a demon and forcing a young mage to confront it or else die or be turned into a soulless husk not only supremely hypocritical but also immoral? If you say no, then we've really got nothing further to discuss.

 

Because nothing generates productive discussion like telling others to unquestioningly accept your position or walk out. 
 
Let me answer your question with a question: is it better to actively risk the possession of a mage in a Circle tower, or passively risk possession among civilian population?

I already said my piece on it: Harrowing or no, facing demons is an inevitability for mages. How can one best prepare to face any threat? Live-action training. It is a practice that benefits the mage by giving them experience. And if they fail, better for all involved that it happens in a Circle than civilian area. Don't know about you, but were I a mage, the last place I would want to fall to possession is my home. The first people to go would be my loved ones.

 

Also: how do you think civilians will react if/when their loved ones have been killed by an abomination?

 
If a mage has passed his/her Harrowing and displays exemplary behavior, they can earn the privilege of gaining leave. I would certainly accept that they deserve more than just temporary leave. What matters to me is simply that the mage has joined the Circle (in joining, prove they care to comply with the laws/state), been trained, and proven trustworthy. Then, by all means, they can pursue what they wish. A refusal to do so just raises serious cause for concern.

[Addai]

Which, of course, you are comparing to the pursuit of happiness in the modern day.
 
Don't.
 
With rare exceptions, the common folk do not simply work their way up into nobility. You have to be born into it, and the law already says that mages cannot be nobility. Even if we were to repeal that law and allow mages to reclaim their status, what about the rest (which would be most of them)? As a commoner, you are destined to live under worse conditions and have fewer privileges (virtually none) than you had before in the Circle. Which leads me to the next point...

Who said anything about nobility? Though those who can inherit should be able to. The others should have the same rights to free movement, association and property as anyone else. Modern day vs. not-modern is irrelevant because we're talking about relative rights and freedoms.
 

The Circle is designed to offer a more comfortable life than what most people live in Thedas (only the nobility live better), so if a mage becomes possessed in the Circle, there is little reason to believe said mage would not have been corrupted outside of it.

Please. Don't go there. I want you to tell the mage who's being sexually abused by templars ("if you resist I'll tell them you're a blood mage" - Cole banter) that since women are raped elsewhere, she should just shut up and consider herself lucky.

Unlearning the most-followed religious doctrine in Thedas.[/font]
 
Good luck with that.

The Chantry is on its knees and discredited at the end of DAI. That's a start.

[The Hierophant]

Off topic but what happened to Adrian?

[Xilizhra]

Off topic but what happened to Adrian?

Possibly she died in battle. It seems unlikely that we wouldn't have heard from her had she been in Redcliffe. If not, she was probably commanding another cell somewhere else; if the Inquisition allies with the mages, she probably makes her way to Skyhold eventually.

[MisterJB]

Off topic but what happened to Adrian?

Corypheus considered her methods to be unhetical and, quite frankly, disturbing so he killed her.

That is how bad she was.

[Malthier]

Depends on how much freedom I've given in the circle, whether I get along with the other people there, whether the people in charge are tools or not. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Corypheus considered her methods to be unhetical and, quite frankly, disturbing so he killed her.
That is how bad she was.

This seems likely.

[Lumix19]

She might have been one of the representatives that Fiona sent to the Conclave (this seems likely to me), or as someone said above she was just commanding another cell.

[themageguy]

Doesn't matter. She can still be a benevolent abomination. An abomination is any mage possessed by a spirit or demon.

Yeah i suppose by Chantry terms.
If a rivaini seer or an augur of the avvar saw Wynne, i doubt they would see her as such.

After playing inquisition and the hakkon dlc, its changed how i view spirits, spirit magic and possession.

For me, an abomination is a possessed being that wreaks havoc and devastation. Mages like Wynne, Rivaini seers and the Augurs don't fit that bill so to speak.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

As seen in Inquisition... no, they don't. They might have made bad choices politically, but they didn't create any magical problems by virtue of being mages.

That is absolutely not the impression I got reading the text of the "Reparations for Redcliffe" War Table mission.

 

For me, an abomination is a possessed being that wreaks havoc and devastation. Mages like Wynne, Rivaini seers and the Augurs don't fit that bill so to speak.

That's how I've seen it this whole time.

 

The difficulty is that the Templars don't seem to see it this way (judging by Cullen's way of handling your "abomination" agent, not to mention their apparent fear of even non-possessed spirit users as established in the fluff text in DA2) and furthermore that you can't always tell a benevolent spirit from a demon. (Partially because the line isn't always entirely clear cut.) Not to mention that the act of possession can apparently change a spirit that would not have created a true abomination (by my definition rather than the Chantry's) into one that can.

[Dark Helmet]

Hell no. I'd be forever grateful for my glorious Chantry and Templar overlords.

 

I'd go for the Inquisition the second it became an option after Fiona's idiotic rebellion.

[Asdrubael Vect]

If the world of Thedas was real, and you were a mage, would you want to be free?

and i would not mind and kinda like to be elf mage as well or kosstih mage..being just human or dwarf would be boring if Thedas was real=)

 

about "want to be free"

 

i am sure do not want to live in Qun or in Orlais Chantry Cirlces and obey to Tempalrs/Seekers stupid n*zi brainwahsed bastards

 

and if i would stuck in such concentration prisons what are not a "golden cages" for 90% and most aprentices who live in some sh*t baracks and eat some sh*t food(even in main Orlais Cirlce near Divine herself) are became dead before they can become a enchanters and have a normal room..and yeah they not have anything free and they work for all what they have and their work give Chantry and Templars all money and influence what they have and mages get only some few drops of all of the profits what they give..they are slaves

 

i would learn magic and blood magic as hard as i can(as try to learn some combat with weapons and have some armor), steal some fine enchanted goods, books,runes, lyrium 

 

and after killing some templars will run(and i would help other mages if it would have sense and they would want to live normal lives) away to Nevarra, Rivain, Tantervale or Tevinter or Orzammar or Dalish

 

i am sure do not and never want to live in

1)Qun lands

2)Orlais Empire,

3)Starheven,

4)Ostwik,

5)Antiva(hate as the same as Orlais)

5)Ferelden(but it became more good after blight and grey warden ruler, if loghain was able to drive Orlais influence and their tempalrs from mages circles away as he tried i would live there..logain was failed and after another fail to making enemies with grey wardens became dead so the hopes on Alister and eamon, maybe when Connor or other mage noble became king and non-humans can became a nobles)...

 

so i would like to live in.any place when Orlais Chantry-Templars/Seekers are not exist as Qun bullshit..to live free from them so it would not be matter if someone be mage or nonmage as their race will not too

[In Exile]

Of course they have to. All throughout the franchise we've seen mages being prone to their base emotions, and desires like the rest of the common people of Thedas, which leads to the abuse of magic. Southern mages collectively, due to public image issues, have to be better than that because they wield literal power that could negatively impact a community or ecosystem if misused.

Just like we've seen non-mages use political powerful for petty and evil things, oftentimes insane and almost certainly risking the doom of all Thedas were it not for our PC.

In DAO, we had Loghain at the very least. Really you'd have to count Isolde in this as well, and certainly the reavers at Haven do not exactly avoid the crazy train.

In DA2 and DAI we have, first, Meredith and then substantial portions of the templars and seekers willingly joining Corypheus to become red lyrium abominations. Lord Seeker Lucius straight up is looney tunes character who wants to destroy the world. Grand Duchess Florianne sides with Corypheus for not especially clear reasons.

In Jaws of Hakkon we see the harm done by spirit worship by non-mages and an entire system of open abominations largely functioning quite well.

[Master Warder Z_]

and then substantial portions of the templars and seekers willingly joining Corypheus to become red lyrium abominations.

To be perfectly blunt that's horse ****.

A handful of officers and a former templar led the plot to corrupt the order and cult led to the death of many seekers due the inane and feeble will of it's leader.

All in all.

It's five people or less.

Not thousands upon thousands like you make it out to be.

[CathyMe]

To be perfectly blunt that's horse ****.

A handful of officers and a former templar led the plot to corrupt the order and cult led to the death of many seekers due the inane and feeble will of it's leader.

All in all.

It's five people or less.

Not thousands upon thousands like you make it out to be.

And all those red templars we encounter are what? Figments of imagination? If there is a minority in the templars, is the one made of those who left the order by the beginning of inquistion.