858 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

That is absolutely not the impression I got reading the text of the "Reparations for Redcliffe" War Table mission.

Collateral damage from wartime. It happens all the time with mundanes too. Nothing uniquely magical, like abominations or more rifts.

 

 

That's how I've seen it this whole time.

 

The difficulty is that the Templars don't seem to see it this way (judging by Cullen's way of handling your "abomination" agent, not to mention their apparent fear of even non-possessed spirit users as established in the fluff text in DA2) and furthermore that you can't always tell a benevolent spirit from a demon. (Partially because the line isn't always entirely clear cut.) Not to mention that the act of possession can apparently change a spirit that would not have created a true abomination (by my definition rather than the Chantry's) into one that can.

The only time we've seen that happen is when a spirit possessed a Grey Warden, and the taint isn't good for anyone. Given that Justice manifests when Corypheus takes over Anders' mind in Legacy, and Justice is who Corypheus controls, I'm quite sure that Justice was fundamentally altered by Anders' taint, not his anger.

[Boost32]

And all those red templars we encounter are what? Figments of imagination? If there is a minority in the templars, is the one made of those who left the order by the beginning of inquistion.

Those are the ones who were corrupted at Kirkwall, Hawke will tell the Inquisition that they started using red Lyrium, and all this happened while Cullen was the knight-commander of Kirkwall.

[Boost32]

The only time we've seen that happen is when a spirit possessed a Grey Warden, and the taint isn't good for anyone. Given that Justice manifests when Corypheus takes over Anders' mind in Legacy, and Justice is who Corypheus controls, I'm quite sure that Justice was fundamentally altered by Anders' taint, not his anger.

He possessed Kristoff body and wasnt corrupted, so I doubted it was the taint that changed Justice.

[Xilizhra]

He possessed Kristoff body and wasnt corrupted, so I doubted it was the taint that changed Justice.

Kristoff was almost certainly different because he was dead. Being near physical taint that might be residing within a Grey Warden's body (and I'm not positive that it is, since we've never heard of Grey Warden corpses being potentially hazardous like darkspawn corpses) isn't the same thing at all as fusing with the body and soul of a living, tainted creature.

[MisterJB]

And all those red templars we encounter are what? Figments of imagination? If there is a minority in the templars, is the one made of those who left the order by the beginning of inquistion.

 

The officers lied to the Templars and promised all Red Lyrium did was increase their strength. Once they drank it, not only were they corrupted by the lyrium itself, like what happened to Meredith, but Corypheus could control their minds through the Blight.

 

A minority of the Templars joined the Inquisition at the beginning of the game and a minority of Templars sworde allegiance to Corypheus. If Champions of the Just is done, the Inquisition call for action, along with the nobles, leads to many rank and file Templars demanding an explanation from the Lord Seeker, who was Envy at the this point, as to why they weren'd doing anything about the Breach.

This, plus Envy's desires to become the Inquisitor, leads to them attempting to take over the Order before they are ready and, with the Inquisitor leading the charge, the Red ones are expunged from Templars ranks.

 

Otherwise, Envy slowly builds up the number of Templars controlled by Red Lyrium until they are strong enough to take over the Order and kill anyone whom they can't corrupt.

 

 

On the other hand, the mages rank and file may have had misgiving but they all chose to remain allied with Tevinter and I have yet to see evidence they weren't attacking Haven of their own free will.

[CathyMe]

Those are the ones who were corrupted at Kirkwall, Hawke will tell the Inquisition that they started using red Lyrium, and all this happened while Cullen was the knight-commander of Kirkwall.

1. I hope you understand me doubting that all those red templars we encountered during inquisition are all from kirkwall, since it doesn't say it specifically anywhere.

2. If they took red lyrium while Cullen was in command, then they are more idiotic than I first thought. Since not only did they know what the red lyrium does, but no one forced or tricked them.

[CathyMe]

The officers lied to the Templars and promised all Red Lyrium did was increase their strength. Once they drank it, not only were they corrupted by the lyrium itself, like what happened to Meredith, but Corypheus could control their minds through the Blight.

 

A minority of the Templars joined the Inquisition at the beginning of the game and a minority of Templars sworde allegiance to Corypheus. If Champions of the Just is done, the Inquisition call for action, along with the nobles, leads to many rank and file Templars demanding an explanation from the Lord Seeker, who was Envy at the this point, as to why they weren'd doing anything about the Breach.

This, plus Envy's desires to become the Inquisitor, leads to them attempting to take over the Order before they are ready and, with the Inquisitor leading the charge, the Red ones are expunged from Templars ranks.

 

Otherwise, Envy slowly builds up the number of Templars controlled by Red Lyrium until they are strong enough to take over the Order and kill anyone whom they can't corrupt.

 

 

On the other hand, the mages rank and file may have had misgiving but they all chose to remain allied with Tevinter and I have yet to see evidence they weren't attacking Haven of their own free will.

While I won't argue the consequences of doing or not doing Champions of the Just, since I never did it nor will I ever, I will say this: Unlike mages, whom want to decide how they live their own lives, Templars on the other hand want to make decisions for other people, yet so many are easily tricked by a demon, whom templars are intensively trained to fight, and that alone is reason enough for me to not let them make any decisions regarding the lives of so many other people.

[MisterJB]

While I won't argue the consequences of doing or not doing Champions of the Just, since I never did it nor will I ever, I will say this: Unlike mages, whom want to decide how they live their own lives, Templars on the other hand want to make decisions for other people, yet so many are easily tricked by a demon, whom templars are intensively trained to fight, and that alone is reason enough for me to not let them make any decisions regarding the lives of so many other people.

 

Everyone has an opinion and that is fine.

However, what if we were to analyze what you are saying? You don't believe Templars should make decisions regarding the lives of others because they have been tricked by a demon. That is fair, I won'd deny they failed big time.

However, who exactly the worst track record when it comes to demons? Who is most at risk from them? Mages. Fiona herself was once possessed by one.

And even if we accept that mages aren't interested in ruling; which is something I do not believe; it is an undeniable fact that what they demand will, inevitably, affect the lives of other people. It already has, in fact. The slaugther in the Hinterlands is a direct consequence of the mages deciding to pull away from the Chantry, regardless of who is at fault.

 

Would you let the mages make decisions that will affect the lives of so many?

[Lumix19]

The officers lied to the Templars and promised all Red Lyrium did was increase their strength. Once they drank it, not only were they corrupted by the lyrium itself, like what happened to Meredith, but Corypheus could control their minds through the Blight.

 

A minority of the Templars joined the Inquisition at the beginning of the game and a minority of Templars sworde allegiance to Corypheus. If Champions of the Just is done, the Inquisition call for action, along with the nobles, leads to many rank and file Templars demanding an explanation from the Lord Seeker, who was Envy at the this point, as to why they weren'd doing anything about the Breach.

This, plus Envy's desires to become the Inquisitor, leads to them attempting to take over the Order before they are ready and, with the Inquisitor leading the charge, the Red ones are expunged from Templars ranks.

 

Otherwise, Envy slowly builds up the number of Templars controlled by Red Lyrium until they are strong enough to take over the Order and kill anyone whom they can't corrupt.

 

 

On the other hand, the mages rank and file may have had misgiving but they all chose to remain allied with Tevinter and I have yet to see evidence they weren't attacking Haven of their own free will.

To be fair this was before they knew that Alexius was of the Venatori, not the Imperium proper. And I have still seen no evidence that they were attacking Haven of their own free will, it works both ways you know, you actually have to have a good reason for believing your claims.

 

What I'm curious about is why Denam and the other corrupt higher-ups sold out to Envy and Corypheus. I don't think I ever got a proper explanation except Samson's weird rambling about the Chantry.

[Ashagar]

To be fair envy is both a powerful and rare demon pointedly only senior Templars would have encountered one before hand and would be able both recognize and to see though it and many of them blew up with the conclave and the one of the ones who didn't get blown up, the Knight-Vigilant pointedly got murdered by one of Corypheus's agents because he would have seen right though envy which would have ruined Corypheus's plans and its quite possible other senior Templars might have been murdered as well. The other people who might have seen though it, the seekers were lured away to their deaths by Lord Lucius.

[Lumix19]

Everyone has an opinion and that is fine.

However, what if we were to analyze what you are saying? You don't believe Templars should make decisions regarding the lives of others because they have been tricked by a demon. That is fair, I won'd deny they failed big time.

However, who exactly the worst track record when it comes to demons? Who is most at risk from them? Mages. Fiona herself was once possessed by one.

And even if we accept that mages aren't interested in ruling; which is something I do not believe; it is an undeniable fact that what they demand will, inevitably, affect the lives of other people. It already has, in fact. The slaugther in the Hinterlands is a direct consequence of the mages deciding to pull away from the Chantry, regardless of who is at fault.

 

Would you let the mages make decisions that will affect the lives of so many?

Why not? Should we let nobles make decisions that will affect the lives of so many? Frankly I fail to see the difference. What makes mages different from any other group that has power? Is it demons? Probably. But of all the crazy mages that we've seen, Tarohne, Huon, Evelina, the issue has not been corruption by demons, it's been either corruption due to desperation, like Evelina, or due to power and pride, and that is something that affects even the Chantry. What makes the Chantry and the Templars more deserving of choosing how magic is wielded?

 

For example: why should the Circle be forced to fight Gaspard? The civil war has nothing to do with them. Yet the Chantry seems willing to send in the Circle to fight if Gaspard marches on Val Royeaux.

[MisterJB]

To be fair this was before they knew that Alexius was of the Venatori, not the Imperium proper. And I have still seen no evidence that they were attacking Haven of their own free will, it works both ways you know, you actually have to have a good reason for believing your claims.

If someone attacks you, is it your job to provide evidence they weren't doing so under coertion?

 

 

What I'm curious about is why Denam and the other corrupt higher-ups sold out to Envy and Corypheus. I don't think I ever got a proper explanation except Samson's weird rambling about the Chantry.

To us, Corypheus is basically a group of health points to whittle down.

We know we can defeat him, we know the game will provide us the means.

 

To the people of Thedas he is someone who was born before Andraste, who walked the halls of the Maker and returned, who commands the Blight, who has people manipulating the mages, the Empress, the Wardens, who has an army from Tevinter, who has a dragon at his beck and call.

I imagine he can be very persuasive.

 

[Jouni S]

From a practical point of view, this discussion is mostly irrelevant. If we consider DA:O and DA2 canon, then we know that Thedas has a lot of mages living outside the Circles. Even Orzammar is full of them. Many of those mages are trained combatants, often working as mercenaries.

Therefore, if we want know what would happen if the mages could live as they choose, we only need to play the games. The Circle mages are just a well-known Chantry-controlled minority group.

[CathyMe]

To us, Corypheus is basically a group of health points to whittle down.

We know we can defeat him, we know the game will provide us the means.

 

To the people of Thedas he is someone who was born before Andraste, who walked the halls of the Maker and returned, who commands the Blight, who has people manipulating the mages, the Empress, the Wardens, who has an army from Tevinter, who has a dragon at his beck and call.

I imagine he can be very persuasive.

 

Not to andrastians, he's not. Acording to the chantry's teachings, he is the embodiment of everything that is wrong with the world. He is one of the magisters that "breached the golden city and made the maker abandon Thedas". You would think the "maker's chosen ones" would attack him without blinking. In other words: Corypheus intimidating, yes....persuasive, not in the wildest dreams

 

Edit: Also, he doesn't "manipulate the empress", he plots her assassination through that retard named Florianne.

[Boost32]

1. I hope you understand me doubting that all those red templars we encountered during inquisition are all from kirkwall, since it doesn't say it specifically anywhere.
2. If they took red lyrium while Cullen was in command, then they are more idiotic than I first thought. Since not only did they know what the red lyrium does, but no one forced or tricked them.

1- If you do Champions of the Just they are, because the Inquisitor stop the corruption at Therinfal and after that only a few red templars remain. At the temple of Mythal, Calpernia mention in a codex they will use the last red templars to shield the Venatori advance.

2-No one will say otherwise.

[In Exile]

To be perfectly blunt that's horse ****.
A handful of officers and a former templar led the plot to corrupt the order and cult led to the death of many seekers due the inane and feeble will of it's leader.
All in all.
It's five people or less.
Not thousands upon thousands like you make it out to be.

Hold up. A "substantial portion" doesn't mean thousands. I specifically used a really vague amount to avoid implying quantity. The venatori influence cannot have been as small as you make it out, however. To actually spread the red lyrium -especially after Kirkwall - you'd need a solid amount of the Seeker and Templar leadership. It wouldn't have to be a clear majority of the officers dedicated to Corypheus personally but you'd need a majority sufficiently zealous to look at what happened to Meredith and sign up.

Look at how radical factions rise to political power. You don't need a majority. But you do need a dedicated minority and a zealous majority open to a portion of their more repugnant ideals.

Champions if the Just shows us two things. The first is that the Templars follow orders almost without dissent. The second is that a portion of them were dedicated to Mage hunting to an extreme - their zealotry rivalling Meredith. Other Red Templar codixes suggest that for a lot of officers it was their zealotry that led them to red lyrics.

[MisterJB]

Why not? Should we let nobles make decisions that will affect the lives of so many? Frankly I fail to see the difference. What makes mages different from any other group that has power? Is it demons? Probably. But of all the crazy mages that we've seen, Tarohne, Huon, Evelina, the issue has not been corruption by demons, it's been either corruption due to desperation, like Evelina, or due to power and pride, and that is something that affects even the Chantry. What makes the Chantry and the Templars more deserving of choosing how magic is wielded?

For the same reasons the mages went to war. Group thinking.

The world is not equal. Groups of people seek to have bigger and bigger parts of the world. This, of course, involves being ruled by someone who is like you and, in theory, has the same interests in mind. It's what the mages want, it's what normal people also want.

 

The logic can be considered faulty. People can be abused by their leaders whether they are part of the same group or not but, practically speaking, it tends not to be. Societies that are ruled by one group of people will be geared towards the necessities of that group.

Just compare Tevinter to Orlais. Or hell, even Rivain to Ferelden.

 

If you think being ruled by a Templar or being ruled by a mage is all the same, why not remain in the Circles?

[In Exile]

Collateral damage from wartime. It happens all the time with mundanes too. Nothing uniquely magical, like abominations or more rifts.
 
 

The only time we've seen that happen is when a spirit possessed a Grey Warden, and the taint isn't good for anyone. Given that Justice manifests when Corypheus takes over Anders' mind in Legacy, and Justice is who Corypheus controls, I'm quite sure that Justice was fundamentally altered by Anders' taint, not his anger.

We know that spirits can be twisted from their purpose. This is one of the main themes in Solas's personal quest. The fascinating Avar faith is tied to their being able to influence spirits to reflect their nobler ideals.

[CathyMe]

1- If you do Champions of the Just they are, because the Inquisitor stop the corruption at Therinfal and after that only a few red templars remain. At the temple of Mythal, Calpernia mention in a codex they will use the last red templars to shield the Venatori advance.

2-No one will say otherwise.

1- As I told someone else earlier, I do not considers whether you do or not the Champions of the Just as a valid excuse because if you need external intervention to prevent you from doing something so monumentally stupid, than you are in no position to demand to make others people decisions

[Boost32]

1- As I told someone else earlier, I do not considers whether you do or not the Champions of the Just as a valid excuse because if you need external intervention to prevent you from doing something so monumentally stupid, than you are in no position to demand to make others people decisions

OK, I was just answering your question.
And the templars at Therinfal didn't know red Lyrium was corrupted, they were mislead by their superiors officers.

[Lumix19]

For the same reasons the mages went to war. Group thinking.

The world is not equal. Groups of people seek to have bigger and bigger parts of the world. This, of course, involves being ruled by someone who is like you and, in theory, has the same interests in mind. It's what the mages want, it's what normal people also want.

 

The logic can be considered faulty. People can be abused by their leaders whether they are part of the same group or not but, practically speaking, it tends not to be. Societies that are ruled by one group of people will be geared towards the necessities of that group.

Just compare Tevinter to Orlais. Or hell, even Rivain to Ferelden.

 

If you think being ruled by a Templar or being ruled by a mage is all the same, why not remain in the Circles?

Mages are only a group because that is what the Chantry and the Circle have instilled in the populace, that they are marked by magic so they are a mage. Ask a mage where they're from and they won't say Ferelden, or Rivain or Orlais, they'll say the Circle. By segregating mages you're creating the very society you fear. If you integrate mages you might not have that, you'll have Antivans who happen to be mages, not mages who happen to be from Antiva. Arguing that mages will protect their own interest just because of magic is like saying all elves should be best friends just because they're elves. And as Sera shows that is not the case, in fact she despises "elfy" things.

 

Also being ruled by a Templar is not the same, it comes with possible abuses, constant surveillance and involvement in wars that have nothing to do with you. The templars and Chantry have not proven that they are better suited to directing the path of mages and magic, in fact you could argue that you couldn't get any worse. So perhaps it's time to let mages try their hand and see whether they can do a better job. Ruled by someone who does have their best interests in mind and is like them.

[Boost32]

To be fair this was before they knew that Alexius was of the Venatori, not the Imperium proper. And I have still seen no evidence that they were attacking Haven of their own free will, it works both ways you know, you actually have to have a good reason for believing your claims.

What I'm curious about is why Denam and the other corrupt higher-ups sold out to Envy and Corypheus. I don't think I ever got a proper explanation except Samson's weird rambling about the Chantry.

Iron Bull: I guess the Vints will be pissed with you after warning everyone at Haven.
Dorian: Not that my warning did any good.
Iron Bull: Didn't see any rebel mages coming to do it.
Dorian: There is that. The ones who didn't join the Venatori either ran off or were killed.
Iron Bull: Ah see? Good on you. Way to join the underdogs.
Dorian: I'm thrilled, really.

He says the mages joined the Venatori, the ones who resisted were killed. No mention of mind control.

[TevinterSupremacist]

What kind of question is this? Of course I'd want to be free.

And a Tevinter noble, ideally.

[The Hierophant]

Just like we've seen non-mages use political powerful for petty and evil things, often times insane and almost certainly risking the doom of all Thedas were it not for our PC.

In DAO, we had Loghain at the very least. Really you'd have to count Isolde in this as well, and certainly the reavers at Haven do not exactly avoid the crazy train.

In DA2 and DAI we have, first, Meredith and then substantial portions of the templars and seekers willingly joining Corypheus to become red lyrium abominations. Lord Seeker Lucius straight up is looney tunes character who wants to destroy the world. Grand Duchess Florianne sides with Corypheus for not especially clear reasons.

In Jaws of Hakkon we see the harm done by spirit worship by non-mages and an entire system of open abominations largely functioning quite well.

Reread my post Exile i don't disagree. Though Loghain and Florianne would be even worse if they had magic.

My point is that mages are fallible like the common people of Thedas. Difference being that they have literal power, not an abstract notion of it like authority. You'd have to compare the devastation a monarch/noble/official with an army at their disposal could cause in order to equal the work of a single mage like Conner, Zathrian, Baroness or Avernus. Corypheus, the Architect, and Solas trumps them all.

To further clarify my op i take issue with low tier reality warpers being human like everyone else because that means they're also fallible, and fallible people with the power to alter the frabric of reality with their minds is not a good thing. I personally view "being human" as an excuse that sets the bar low for accountability.

[Lumix19]

Iron Bull: I guess the Vints will be pissed with you after warning everyone at Haven.
Dorian: Not that my warning did any good.
Iron Bull: Didn't see any rebel mages coming to do it.
Dorian: There is that. The ones who didn't join the Venatori either ran off or were killed.
Iron Bull: Ah see? Good on you. Way to join the underdogs.
Dorian: I'm thrilled, really.

He says the mages joined the Venatori, the ones who resisted were killed. No mention of mind control.

Couldn't that just mean that those the Venatori didn't brainwash ran off or were killed? Regardless this discussion has been had too many times and it would derail the thread.

 

Reread my post Exile i don't disagree. Though Loghain and Florianne would be even worse if they had magic.

My point is that mages are fallible like the common people of Thedas. Difference being that they have literal power, not an abstract notion of it like authority. You'd have to compare the devastation a monarch/noble/official with an army at their disposal could cause in order to equal the work of a single mage like Conner, Zathrian, Baroness or Avernus. Corypheus, the Architect, and Solas trumps them all.

To further clarify my op i take issue with low tier reality warpers being human like everyone else because that means they're also fallible, and fallible people with the power to alter the frabric of reality with their minds is not a good thing. I personally view "being human" as an excuse that sets the bar low for accountability.

I agree. But there's no way around that bar using blood magic to make people into perfectly altruistic utopians.