858 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

idk man, the Dalish seem to have more than their share of mess ups with magic

 

*looks at summoning Imshael*

*killing extra mages*

*Zathrian*

*Merrill and Marethari*

[Lumix19]

idk man, the Dalish seem to have more than their share of mess ups with magic

 

*looks at summoning Imshael*

*killing extra mages*

*Zathrian*

*Merrill and Marethari*

I don't see why people think Imshael was such a bad thing. They summoned it and had it contained. Really it's Michel's fault for being stupid enough to set it free.

[Scuttlebutt101]

I don't see why people think Imshael was such a bad thing.

Yeah, summoning a demon has never turned out badly for anyone, ever.

[Steelcan]

I don't see why people think Imshael was such a bad thing. They summoned it and had it contained. Really it's Michel's fault for being stupid enough to set it free.

No, it was a stupid thing to do in the first place

[teh DRUMPf!!]

The others should have the same rights to free movement, association and property as anyone else. Modern day vs. not-modern is irrelevant because we're talking about relative rights and freedoms.

Okay, great. You have stripped them of their Circle privileges in the name of rights/freedoms, ... and now they are peasants, or alienage residents. Victory! ... ?

When it comes down to it, rights/freedoms are really only as meaningful as what they do for you. There is a wide achievement gap in the world outside the Circle. With few exceptions, you have to be born into a the social class to have all/most of the privileges that mages are given for free (and which their "supporters" advocate getting rid of). In the Circle, if you work hard, you can do pretty well for yourself.

Quality of life > freedom, any day.

 

Please. Don't go there. I want you to tell the mage who's being sexually abused by templars ("if you resist I'll tell them you're a blood mage" - Cole banter) that since women are raped elsewhere, she should just shut up and consider herself lucky.

 
.... Where... do Templars... come from??
 

That's right: the outside world, everyday people. Templar abuses of mages root from something deeper than the Circle itself: mundanes fight amongst themselves all the time, they have as much potential reason to fight any mage, and then more reason if they take issue with magic.

 

So if you advocate eliminating the 'Order, and having the mages live in the world outside the Circles, you have effectively solved... nothing. You have the mages living alongside the same people who'd have abused them in the Circle. We're back to square-one. And, in the process, you have removed the one thing that exists to protect mages from various other human threats such as bandits or Darkspawn for free. Yes, the Templars sometimes take advantage of their position over mages, yet it still creates an entire force of mundanes that serve to fight/die for mages where there otherwise would not have been one. In getting rid of them, we have now moved to "square-zero" (only the mage rebellion).

 

In that sense, yes, the Circle eliminates far more human threats than the one than what exist within it. And, again, there are a plethora of non-human threats it has eliminated as well while creating absolutely no others. I also like how you preemptively responded to your cherry-picked example of an abuse case with "It can happen anywhere, amirite?" ... and offered no compelling reason to believe it is any more likely to happen within the Circle than from without.

 

Unless you are going for an anarchy/state-of-nature where everything is fair game, there is no such thing as a perfect system. Something or someone will work outside the acceptable parameters and need to be dealt with. Whatever cheap imitation of the Circle is created by Leliana will see its share of blunders. After all, it was you who pointed out the danger of a thin 'Veil, which will be a consequence of any school with mages given the nature of magic.

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------

 

And two can play your game: what is your response to Minaeve's story -- better that there were no Templars to rescue her from frightened villagers?

 

But first, my turn:

 

In the case of abuses, the solution is not rocket-science. To start off with, Templars need to hold less power in the Circles than they do now, and/or mages need to hold more. Some Circle advocates may dispute that, but not me. You know who else agrees? Vivienne. If the player went the mage path, "Vivtoria" gives them more freedoms than they had before (to say nothing of shattering the glass-ceiling for mages by becoming the Divine at all). If the player went the Templar path, "Vivtoria" gives them less reign than they had before. In doing so, Templars are more likely to face justice if they commit abuses. That will deter it, in most cases. In the event it does happen anyway, though, you do the exact same thing you would do outside of a Circle: extract justice and hope that it was enough. And now here is the fun part: what if, at the end of the day, the mage victim is content with removing the problem-Templar and chooses to remain in the Circle? I hope you have some paper-towel ready to wipe that egg off your face.

 

 

The Chantry is on its knees and discredited at the end of DAI. That's a start.

 

 

.... Where... did the Chantry... come from??

 

That's right: ideas. Those things that everyone has, and which are shaped by people's everyday life experiences.

 

So, to say nothing of the many levels on which trying to "unlearn Chantry doctrine" is a lousy plan, it is all ultimately an exercise in futility. The beliefs people held as followers of the "white" Chantry can and will still exist even if the institution is long gone. Anyone person who witnesses magic working in a negative fashion is going to realize the truth of it... including mages themselves (listen to what a grown-up Connor has to say). You may tear down the Chantry, but you will never tear down the two sides to any given opinion.

 

 

 

*****Let the record show that Addai did not answer my question on whether the alternative to the Harrowing is truly better. Sometimes no answer says the most.

[The Hierophant]

idk man, the Dalish seem to have more than their share of mess ups with magic

 

*looks at summoning Imshael*

*killing extra mages*

*Zathrian*

*Merrill and Marethari*

You got me, but even if we multiplied their fail by a thousand they still got nothing on Old Tevinter. That's just sad.

[Lumix19]

No, it was a stupid thing to do in the first place

Why? If they had it contained what's the issue?

[Xilizhra]

Okay, great. You have stripped them of their Circle privileges in the name of rights/freedoms, ... and now they are peasants, or alienage residents. Victory! ... ?

When it comes down to it, rights/freedoms are really only as meaningful as what they do for you. There is a wide achievement gap in the world outside the Circle. With few exceptions, you have to be born into a the social class to have all/most of the privileges that mages are given for free (and which their "supporters" advocate getting rid of). In the Circle, if you work hard, you can do pretty well for yourself.

Quality of life > freedom, any day.

Happily, the College of Enchanters doesn't make anyone peasants/alienage residents. So that problem's taken care of.

 

 

.... Where... do Templars... come from??
 

That's right: the outside world, everyday people. Templar abuses of mages root from something deeper than the Circle itself: mundanes fight amongst themselves all the time, they have as much potential reason to fight any mage, and then more reason if they take issue with magic.

 

So if you advocate eliminating the 'Order, and having the mages live in the world outside the Circles, you have effectively solved... nothing. You have the mages living alongside the same people who'd have abused them in the Circle. We're back to square-one. And, in the process, you have removed the one thing that exists to protect mages from various other human threats such as bandits or Darkspawn for free. Yes, the Templars sometimes take advantage of their position over mages, yet it still creates an entire force of mundanes that serve to fight/die for mages where there otherwise would not have been one. In getting rid of them, we have now moved to "square-zero" (only the mage rebellion).

 

In that sense, yes, the Circle eliminates far more human threats than the one than what exist within it. And, again, there are a plethora of non-human threats it has eliminated as well while creating absolutely no others. I also like how you preemptively responded to your cherry-picked example of an abuse case with "It can happen anywhere, amirite?" ... and offered no compelling reason to believe it is any more likely to happen within the Circle than from without.

 

Unless you are going for an anarchy/state-of-nature where everything is fair game, there is no such thing as a perfect system. Something or someone will work outside the acceptable parameters and need to be dealt with. Whatever cheap imitation of the Circle is created by Leliana will see its share of blunders. After all, it was you who pointed out the danger of a thin 'Veil, which will be a consequence of any school with mages given the nature of magic.

If the College turns out to need outside protection that its own resources can't provide, they can always go the Bright Hand route and join the Inquisition. The fact that they didn't appears to indicate that it was unnecessary.

 

 

.... Where... did the Chantry... come from??

 

That's right: ideas. Those things that everyone has, and which are shaped by people's everyday life experiences.

 

So, to say nothing of the many levels on which trying to "unlearn Chantry doctrine" is a lousy plan, it is all ultimately an exercise in futility. The beliefs people held as followers of the "white" Chantry can and will still exist even if the institution is long gone. Anyone person who witnesses magic working in a negative fashion is going to realize the truth of it... including mages themselves (listen to what a grown-up Connor has to say). You may tear down the Chantry, but you will never tear down the two sides to any given opinion.

"Mages are enjoying unprecedented acceptance throughout Thedas."

 

 

*****Let the record show that Addai did not answer my question on whether the alternative to the Harrowing is truly better. Sometimes no answer says the most.

Like live-fire training, the Harrowing is fine provided there are all possible safeguards to keep the trainees from dying. Namely, another more senior mage being in the Fade at the same time who can fight off the demon if the apprentice is being overwhelmed.

[Steelcan]

Why? If they had it contained what's the issue?

because even a contained demon is extremely dangerous

 

*looks at Audacity*

[Xilizhra]

because even a contained demon is extremely dangerous

 

*looks at Audacity*

Audacity wasn't dangerous until Marethari freed it.

[KaiserShep]

because even a contained demon is extremely dangerous

 

*looks at Audacity*

 

In fairness, we only have Marethari's assumption and subsequent actions to go by, rather than Merrill making the mistake of doing this herself. But at the same time, that Marethari endangered her entire clan by becoming a willing host to this demon in the first place does make it hard to trust her judgment in anything else.

[Steelcan]

Audacity wasn't dangerous until Marethari freed it.

bullsh*t

 

a PRIDE demon egging Merrill on to try and go her own path, against what every other person has been telling her.  No way the PRIDE demon is up to something

[Xilizhra]

bullsh*t

 

a PRIDE demon egging Merrill on to try and go her own path, against what every other person has been telling her.  No way the PRIDE demon is up to something

I'm pretty damn sure Merrill was just a patsy and that Marethari was Audacity's real target.

[Steelcan]

I'm pretty damn sure Merrill was just a patsy and that Marethari was Audacity's real target.

not impossible, but it's hardly relevant when it still shows that even bound demons are dangerous

[Xilizhra]

not impossible, but it's hardly relevant when it still shows that even bound demons are dangerous

Bound demons are dangerous like nuclear reactors are dangerous: primarily around stupid people.

[Br3admax]

A nuclear reactor is dangerous around literally everyone, even those trained to deal with them. What world are you living in?

[Steelcan]

Bound demons are dangerous like nuclear reactors are dangerous: primarily around stupid people.

not quite a great analogy as nuclear reactors don't have a will of their own, nobody gets manipulated by the uranium rods

[Xilizhra]

not quite a great analogy as nuclear reactors don't have a will of their own, nobody gets manipulated by the uranium rods

Right, but nothing at all forces you to listen to a bound demon.

[Steelcan]

Right, but nothing at all forces you to listen to a bound demon.

of course, but if that bound demon is hellbent on manipulating you.....

[Xilizhra]

of course, but if that bound demon is hellbent on manipulating you.....

Then it's your own fault for listening, if you have an exploitable flaw, as Marethari and Michel did.

[Steelcan]

Then it's your own fault for listening, if you have an exploitable flaw, as Marethari and Michel did.

thus making it dangerous to anyone who isn't totally flawless, which is everyone

[Lady Artifice]

I don't see why people think Imshael was such a bad thing. They summoned it and had it contained. Really it's Michel's fault for being stupid enough to set it free.

But...they had no idea what to do with it.

I just don't see most anyone ever managing to control Imshael. Even if they had gotten a deal out of it, it still would have stipulated freedom as a requirement.

Then Imshael gets to play the 100 different ways to murder the Dalish game anyway.

[Xilizhra]

thus making it dangerous to anyone who isn't totally flawless, which is everyone

Not entirely. Someone without any significant amount of pride, even if they had an excess of desire or rage, would be safe from Audacity. Demons can really only appeal to one thing, generally speaking.

[KaiserShep]

Then Imshael gets to play the 100 different ways to murder the Dalish game anyway.

 

Well, we players already get to do that, so it's only fair that demons get to as well.

[Lady Artifice]

Well, we players already get to do that, so it's only fair that demons get to as well.

Lol. Not this game.

Unless...you *are* an elf. Does that make it the most cruel example yet, or just the most strange?