858 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Lol. Not this game.

Unless...you *are* an elf. Does that make it the most cruel example yet, or just the most strange?

Neither. It doesn't carry over in the Keep, so effectively, it never happened.

[Boost32]

Lol. Not this game.
Unless...you *are* an elf. Does that make it the most cruel example yet, or just the most strange?

You can play it with ancient elves

[In Exile]

I'm pretty damn sure Merrill was just a patsy and that Marethari was Audacity's real target.

I agree. But that's exactly what makes (smart) demons so dangerous. They can plot.

[Xilizhra]

I agree. But that's exactly what makes (smart) demons so dangerous. They can plot.

Smart demons are also, it should be noted, very rare.

[In Exile]

Smart demons are also, it should be noted, very rare.

But those would be the valuable ones to bind. I suppose you could use a rage demon like an attack dog but they're irrelevant. When we get to sloth, desire or pride? Those seem substantially more dangerous.

[Lady Artifice]

You can play it with ancient elves

Oh...right.

Neither. It doesn't carry over in the Keep, so effectively, it never happened.

All those war table missions and...no mention?

I'm going to kick something.

[Master Warder Z_]

And all those red templars we encounter are what? Figments of imagination? If there is a minority in the templars, is the one made of those who left the order by the beginning of inquistion.

...Have you even played champions of the justice?

Because apparently you unaware of exactly what you're talking about.

[Boost32]

...Have you even played champions of the justice?
Because apparently you unaware of exactly what you're talking about.

She already said she didn't.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Happily, the College of Enchanters doesn't make anyone peasants/alienage residents. So that problem's taken care of.

And you know this, how -- are you their Grand Enchanter?

There is virtually no information on how the College is going to run or anything.

 

If the College turns out to need outside protection that its own resources can't provide, they can always go the Bright Hand route and join the Inquisition. The fact that they didn't appears to indicate that it was unnecessary.

"Mages are enjoying unprecedented acceptance throughout Thedas."

 

"For...

... the...

... moment."



How long is that moment, one second?? The time between when the law says so and the general populace is aware of it?

 

Like live-fire training, the Harrowing is fine provided there are all possible safeguards to keep the trainees from dying. Namely, another more senior mage being in the Fade at the same time who can fight off the demon if the apprentice is being overwhelmed.

 

Well, okay. That was not what I asked, but so long as we are moving away from leaving untrained mages among the masses.

[Master Warder Z_]

She already said she didn't.

Then obvious ignorance is proven correct.

Case closed.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I don't see why people think Imshael was such a bad thing. They summoned it and had it contained.

 

The argument can be made that summoning spirits and "containing" them is an immoral practice akin to enslavement.

 

It can also be argued that the one who summoned it perhaps twisted a benevolent/benign spirit and made it demonic in the process.

 

 

A nuclear reactor is dangerous around literally everyone, even those trained to deal with them. What world are you living in?

 

Leliana's ending (<-- this has the makings of a prolific meme/running joke).

[Xilizhra]

And you know this, how -- are you their Grand Enchanter?

There is virtually no information on how the College is going to run or anything.

Quite true. But since all of the mage rebels seem to go along with it, either it doesn't do what you suggested, or the mages consider it to be a better alternative than the Circles.

 

 

"For...

... the...

... moment."



How long is that moment, one second?? The time between when the law says so and the general populace is aware of it?

The moment the game turns off. Will it go wrong in the future? Maybe, but there's no more indication that it will than it would in any other ending. Of course, the two most vastly likely possibilities are A. the same thing goes wrong for every Divine, or B. everything goes smoothly for all endings. Otherwise, the devs would be mired in accusations of favoritism for no gain.

 

 

Well, okay. That was not what I asked, but so long as we are moving away from leaving untrained mages among the masses.

The Harrowing is unethical because of its casual acceptance of death as a possible outcome. Significantly reduce that risk and we would be much improved.

[In Exile]

Quite true. But since all of the mage rebels seem to go along with it, either it doesn't do what you suggested, or the mages consider it to be a better alternative than the Circles.
 
 

The moment the game turns off. Will it go wrong in the future? Maybe, but there's no more indication that it will than it would in any other ending. Of course, the two most vastly likely possibilities are A. the same thing goes wrong for every Divine, or B. everything goes smoothly for all endings. Otherwise, the devs would be mired in accusations of favoritism for no gain.
 
 

The Harrowing is unethical because of its casual acceptance of death as a possible outcome. Significantly reduce that risk and we would be much improved.

I would note that on the Harrowing that I think the immorality flows not from the risk of death but from the risk of possession. You're woken up in the middle of the night and forced to confront a demon. Ignoring the Chantry hypocrisy in their engaging In some casual church sanctioned demon summoning, you don't actually get killed unless you get turned into a meat suit.

And we know what that means. A person is trapped in their own body. They're worn by a malevolent entity (if DAO is any indication it is a rage demon) and then they get to watch the Templars kill them. For all we know the kind of physical mutation we saw happen in DAO happens. So before dying trapped in your own body - a hell akin to locked-in syndrome - you get to fell yourself mutated.

It's sick.

[Ashagar]

Imshael was a big deal about being bad to be summoned because he's one of the four forbidden ones who have been known since ancient times. They taught the ancient Tevinter dreamers who contacted them, in spite of contact apparently being forbidden with them blood magic and many other secrets of magic which led them to becoming the first magisters. Honestly not sure why the Dalish clan thought it was a good idea to call up a unbelievably and infamous ancient demon.

 

As for the harrowing in Origins the rage demon was never the real threat in the harrowing nether was the sloth demon, it was mouse the pride demon who was the demon that was to be overcome. As he states, simple killing is a warrior's job, the real dangers of the fade are preconceptions, trust and pride before further stating that true tests never end.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I would want to be able to go out and explore the world freely but at the same time come back to the comforts of a Circle Tower filled with books, enchanting runes and alchemical ingredients. 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I would note that on the Harrowing that I think the immorality flows not from the risk of death but from the risk of possession. You're woken up in the middle of the night and forced to confront a demon. Ignoring the Chantry hypocrisy in their engaging In some casual church sanctioned demon summoning, you don't actually get killed unless you get turned into a meat suit.

And we know what that means. A person is trapped in their own body. They're worn by a malevolent entity (if DAO is any indication it is a rage demon) and then they get to watch the Templars kill them. For all we know the kind of physical mutation we saw happen in DAO happens. So before dying trapped in your own body - a hell akin to locked-in syndrome - you get to fell yourself mutated.

It's sick.

 

lol

 

They are making mages face the thing they will inevitably face in their lifetimes.

 

If you would prefer for their first experience to take place in the middle of a civilian area rather than under controlled conditions then I don't know what to say to you.

[Xilizhra]

lol

 

They are making mages face the thing they will inevitably face in their lifetimes.

 

If you would prefer for their first experience to take place in the middle of a civilian area rather than under controlled conditions then I don't know what to say to you.

That's why you ensure that the experience can't actually do that to them.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

That's why you ensure that the experience can't actually do that to them.

 

If it's purely combat they need help with, sure.

 

If they are about to accept a demon's offer, though? Okay, mayyybe I'd give them one more chance and have them think about what they did wrong.

 

If they do it a second time though? Hell frickin' no. Tranquil their arse!

[Xilizhra]

If it's purely combat they need help with, sure.

 

If they are about to accept a demon's offer, though? Okay, mayyybe I'd give them one more chance and have them think about what they did wrong.

 

If they do it a second time though? Hell frickin' no. Tranquil their arse!

I think that the number of people who would voluntarily become abominations is quite small, and restricted to the truly deranged and the truly desperate.

[In Exile]

lol

They are making mages face the thing they will inevitably face in their lifetimes.

If you would prefer for their first experience to take place in the middle of a civilian area rather than under controlled conditions then I don't know what to say to you.

"Surprise! Demons!!" is a pretty inaccurate way of actually capturing the threat that mages face. You get sent into the Fade both worse and better prepared than you would be in reality.

The biggest thing being, of course, that demons typically prey on some kind of tragedy or desire. They exploit. Even if a mage passes the Harrowing, that doesn't mean they'd actually avoid getting a +1. Just look at Uldred.

The Harrowing just isn't a great test. That's the point. Not only is it bad from a moral POV, it's not even good at what it set out to do.

[KaiserShep]

lol
 
They are making mages face the thing they will inevitably face in their lifetimes.
 
If you would prefer for their first experience to take place in the middle of a civilian area rather than under controlled conditions then I don't know what to say to you.

They should make the mage face a group of people pretending to be a lynch mob ready to burn the witch at the stake. If the mage roasts the crowd, s/he fails the test.

[Xilizhra]

They should make the mage face a group of people pretending to be a lynch mob ready to burn the witch at the stake. If the mage roasts the crowd, s/he fails the test.

I'd say that self-defense is completely legit.

[KaiserShep]

Well, I was kinda joking. Only kinda.

[Br3admax]

The lynch mob would probably roast the mage before the reverse could even being to happen. 

[fhs33721]

We could but there's the fact Red Lyrium will warp your mind and they were commanded to do so by a Tevinter.

 

 Oh, we are going to let this argument count when it comes to templars? But when a demon warps a mages mind and commands him to do bad things they are totally to blame?  

Honestly though I already conceeded that I don't even hold that f*cked up **** against the templars in general. That quarry was mostly Imshaels and Corypheus doing anyways.

 

That seems much less grave than human sacrifice being a central part of the religion of the Ancient Imperium.

 

That's not even what you were arguing in the first place. You were arguing that the templars never did anything remotely close to "forcing people to push their friends down a cliff with hungry dragons at the bottom." To which I replied that subjugating someone to a horrible fate (clearly labled as worse than death by those who endured it) for having the gall to write a letter to a girlfriend is (at least to me, maybe not to you though) pretty much on the same level of arbitrary cruelness.

 

 

Fenris was raped by Danarius.

Alrik's actions were unforgivable and his position as a Templar aided him in his attrocities but, at least, he had to conceal them because they were crimes.

Danarius was entirely within Tevinter Law and no one would even think twice about it.

 

The Chevaliers would be a better example. They also have far too many privileges that need to be curbed. But they are not Templars.

Was it ever said that Alrik actually hid any of his deeds at all? Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think it's ever mentioned that he did anything along those lines. He quite openly talks about tranquilizing Ella and "her doing everything he tells her afterwards" in front of a whole bunch of other templars. His former victims openly make comments like at first "Ser Alrik said he'd tranquilize me. He can't do that. I've already passed my harrowing, that's not legal"  followed by a creepily monotone"I'm Ser Alriks now." in the gallows frontyard where everyone and their mother can hear it.

Totally agree with you on the chevaliers though.

 

when the regular templar order sunders the Veil, kills thousands of slaves in blood magic rituals, and unleashes the Blight upin the world, then they will be comparable, until then, no dice

Fair enough, the templars are not on Ancient Tevinter level of douchebaggery. I even said so in my previous post. Doesn't prevent them from going full assh*le mode in numerous instances. They do have the pleasant quality that they lack the power to threaten the entire world if they go full-******* mode though.