I would imagine that people fear what mages on a level of, say, Hawke, the PC, or the HOF could do, not on the level of your average to below average mage. Or at least I think that's the idea. Your run of the mill mage is powerful, and can do things far beyond a regular human. But that's not every mage. Some can barely light a fire.
Jowan was so weak they were considering rendering him Tranquil, and blood magic let even him duff the Knight Commander and First Enchanter at the same time.
I would imagine that people fear what mages on a level of, say, Hawke, the PC, or the HOF could do, not on the level of your average to below average mage. Or at least I think that's the idea. Your run of the mill mage is powerful, and can do things far beyond a regular human. But that's not every mage. Some can barely light a fire.
I'm not so sure they need a PC level mage before their fears are justified. Even a run-of-the-mill mage is insanely broken next to a run-of-the-mill peasant. I'm under the impression that most peasants in this setting are no stronger or more durable than you get to be doing manual labor for a living. That's more physical power than I've got, but the non-mages shown standing up to mages in the anime, the games, the books and all that have more of it than the laws of physics allow for. An ordinary fieldhand who isn't packing fusion-powered muscles wouldn't be able to fight any longer than it took the mage to determine how best to handle the threat... unless he was standing in a crowd.
Jowan was so weak they were considering rendering him Tranquil, and blood magic let even him duff the Knight Commander and First Enchanter at the same time.
Was it his weakness? I'd thought they'd realized he was a Blood Mage, and that was why he wasn't allowed to graduate.
I would imagine that people fear what mages on a level of, say, Hawke, the PC, or the HOF could do, not on the level of your average to below average mage. Or at least I think that's the idea. Your run of the mill mage is powerful, and can do things far beyond a regular human. But that's not every mage. Some can barely light a fire.
But those less talented Mages are generally thought to be more susceptible to possession and therefore potentially more dangerous, aren't they?
But those less talented Mages are generally thought to be more susceptible to possession and therefore potentially more dangerous, aren't they?
In my mind magical aptitude is different from demonic resilience but the Chantry might consider them same. Although I seem to recall some idea that demons are more attracted to those with more magical power so perhaps the Chantry does consider them different.
They're both apparently controlled by the mage's strength of will. So, they're different in the same way that the number of video games you own isn't the same as the quality of food you eat.
They're both apparently controlled by the mage's strength of will. So, they're different in the same way that the number of video games you own isn't the same as the quality of food you eat.
Are they? I thought of Mana as some natural aptitude with magic whereas resisting demonic possession seems to be more to do with strength of will. Although raising willpower does increase mana...
The Codex entry "Journal of the Tranquil" seems to indicate that Willpower effects magical strength in the lore too.
In my mind magical aptitude is different from demonic resilience but the Chantry might consider them same. Although I seem to recall some idea that demons are more attracted to those with more magical power so perhaps the Chantry does consider them different.
It's a murky combination of all of those factors, I think. That, plus sheer luck.
I really don't know how much control they have over what part of the fade a Mage ends up in during the Harrowing, for example. How do they know it will be facing a more common Pride demon, and not Blinky the Nightmare demon?
They oversimplify the classifications of the Fade entities, so I don't understand how they could accurately deduce a Mage's resistance to possession, or figure out whether their test actually successfully determines a Mages own interest in resisting temptation. Doesn't seen like it really worked with Ulfred.
It's a murky combination of all of those factors, I think. That, plus sheer luck.
I really don't know how much control they have over what part of the fade a Mage ends up in during the Harrowing, for example. How do they know it will be facing a more common Pride demon, and not Blinky the Nightmare demon?
They oversimplify the classifications of the Fade entities, so I don't understand how they could accurately deduce a Mage's resistance to possession, or figure out whether their test actually successfully determines a Mages own interest in resisting temptation. Doesn't seen like it really worked with Ulfred.
The Harrowing as it occurred in the Mage Origin had a demon you had to outsmart, a demon you had to outfight, and a "benevolent" spirit you nonetheless had to be careful about. That combination of tests and teachable moments doesn't seem like the sort of thing that would just happen if the mages didn't have some control over what the apprentice meets. I don't know how they do it, but the things we observe in the game make the most sense if they somehow do. Even then, the Harrowing is not a perfect way to rule out that mage as a danger, but then if the Templars and First Enchanters didn't realize that they would probably let the Harrowed mages live more freely afterwards.
...Have you even played champions of the justice?
Because apparently you unaware of exactly what you're talking about.
Privileges, lol.Okay, great. You have stripped them of their Circle privileges in the name of rights/freedoms, ... and now they are peasants, or alienage residents. Victory! ... ?
You can only speak for yourself. And at the end of the day, that's what this discussion is about. Having the right to choose life on your own terms. That covers everything else you brought up.Quality of life > freedom, any day.
Because abuse of mages exists outside the Circles, the only alternative is an institutionalized abuse of mages? I think not.And two can play your game: what is your response to Minaeve's story -- better that there were no Templars to rescue her from frightened villagers?
Yes, let the record show that I'm not going to write paragraphs of text in this bottomless pit of mage-templar discussion. You can claim that as a victory if you like. I already said what I think about the Harrowing, so asked and answered.*****Let the record show that Addai did not answer my question on whether the alternative to the Harrowing is truly better. Sometimes no answer says the most.[/font]
The world of Thedas is loosly based on a medieval society and "freedom" was a rare thing for everbody in those times. Perhaps really only very rich and powerful men could be called "free" and even they were confined within a narrow code of conduct.
Let's take it a step further and imagine being a mage within relatively free society, a modern one. How free would you really want to be?
Everbody wants to be in control over their lives. (where to live, what kind of work to do, what sort of person to marry etc.) But even in democratic systems these choices are not as free as one would like. Material necessities, social constraints etc. do exist here as well.
On the other hand, if I was a mage, I would be worried about abominations and I would desperately want not to become one. So, a thorough education under some sort of careful supervision seems to be absolutely vital for young mages. (Connor!) Even the Dalish have the Keeper to take care of (watch?!) one or max. two apprentices.
So, mage schools, colleges etc. AND some kind of supervision, at least for young mages, are surely necessary. In the real world, and especially in western democracies (IF magic talent in itself would be accepted and not not seen as a terrible threat or disabiltiy) these schools and colleges would probably be supervised by secular boards of education. Mages would have a strong voice on these boards (but probably not the only voice! - Tevinter!) Templars would probably exist as a special branch of mage police or security, but again being controlled by secular boards, commissioners etc. They could only follow orders, not judge or punish mages themselves.
Experienced mages, mages that have proven over the years, that they can be trusted, could enjoy much greater freedoms. While still being affiliated to a local college, they could live on their own or work for other institutions or private sponsors etc.
Cases of corruption will happen (human nature being what it is) and what would happen to "fallen" mages in the real world? I am pretty sure, the mages themselves would try to get rid of these mages as swift and thoroughly as possible. If they don't, the acceptance of magic in the population would decrease and internation of all mages would probably be the next step. So, the Europeans would probably try to confine those mages for ever (tranquility even, perhaps (For their own good, of course...) and the Americans would execute them 
Still, being a mage in the real world would mean a certain amount of confinement, but probably also immense prestige and also wealth. So if I were a mage today in Germany, I would like to be educated in a well run mage college and later work for some government institution with a lot of perks and privileges. And I would not mind that I would have to report back to the head of my affiliated college to make sure, I am not possessed.
Actually, I just realized, that I sound like Vivienne (whom I do not like), but perhaps her ideas have more merit than I first thought.
The world of Thedas is loosly based on a medieval society and "freedom" was a rare thing for everbody in those times. Perhaps really only very rich and powerful men could be called "free" and even they were confined within a narrow code of conduct.
Let's take it a step further and imagine being a mage within relatively free society, a modern one. How free would you really want to be?
Templars would probably exist as a special branch of mage police or security, but again being controlled by secular boards, commissioners etc. They could only follow orders, not judge or punish mages themselves.
How about the other way around?
Were you a peasant, and peasant here shouldn't be thought of as middle class today, would you want mages to be free?
I know I wouldn't.
How about the other way around?
Were you a peasant, and peasant here shouldn't be thought of as middle class today, would you want mages to be free?
I know I wouldn't.
All in all, yes. And if I didn't, I wouldn't be me.
If it's a relatively free modern society, the principle of presumption of innocence would hold. By default, every mage would be free to live however they want, and their freedoms could only be limited for specific reasons. These would include:
Some really good points there, but I have to say, I disagree with this assumption. Yes, in a free society. you should not be punished (i. e. have to live in a mage boarding school etc) if you have not commited a crime. But I think reality has taught us differently. Even free societies are very quick to give up on liberal rights in exchange for security. (And don't get me wrong, this is not something I agree with, but it has been evident in the last decade or so.)
Just imagine a mage becoming an Abomination and going berserk in a shopping mall. Minutes later the video would go viral and cries for the internment or worse of all mages would be heard. A system, that would keep mages under some kind of control, (at least while they are young and vulnerable) while allowing them a voice in these measures and also always making sure they keep their civil rights, would be for their safety as much as for the safety of "normal" citizens.
I do agree with you on the rite of tranquility. In a modern society there would be other ways to confine dangerous mages than that. And it would not be socially accepted.
Mages in the police force to actually investigate "mage" crimes is brilliant.
Yes, probably. But I think I'd want to be an isolationist. I'd be afraid of the non-mages trying to pitchfork me to death. Not sure about being around family and friends. I guess that would depend on how well I was able to control my magic. Living a fairly secluded life sounds good. Or if I had to live with people, maybe offer healing and help to offset their fear and make good use of the magic.
Not a good thought experiment as it seems many people in this thread are utterly incapable of shedding modern notions on self determination, natural rights, and secularism when looking at a preindustrial, borderline theocratic in some places. medieval societyHow about the other way around?
Were you a peasant, and peasant here shouldn't be thought of as middle class today, would you want mages to be free?
I know I wouldn't.
How about the other way around?
Were you a peasant, and peasant here shouldn't be thought of as middle class today, would you want mages to be free?
I know I wouldn't.
Why?
If I were a peasant and not a mage in modern society, meaning middle or working class like I already am, I'd support it because I support the principles upon which western civilization stands upon.
Right to self-determination, which includes accountability and accepting of consequences, positive and negative for your actions.
Freedom of opportunity.
Inalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
If I denied these rights to people just for being part of a group, I am, in essence, opposed to every right and freedom that is considered to belong to everyone. And then I'd be accused of racism by the media because I judge a whole group of people because they are a group and not taking into account individuality.
Mages, under the rules of Thedas, in modern society, would have mandatory eductation that goes beyond K-12th grade, and would likely be held to higher standards, but they also, by virtue of being in the modern world, would be just as entitled to the same rights as everyone else.
Not a good thought experiment as it seems many people in this thread are utterly incapable of shedding modern notions on self determination, natural rights, and secularism when looking at a preindustrial, borderline theocratic in some places. medieval society
You seem adamant that it is somehow wrong for us to judge Thedas based on our modern ethics and morals. Why?
Some really good points there, but I have to say, I disagree with this assumption. Yes, in a free society. you should not be punished (i. e. have to live in a mage boarding school etc) if you have not commited a crime. But I think reality has taught us differently. Even free societies are very quick to give up on liberal rights in exchange for security. (And don't get me wrong, this is not something I agree with, but it has been evident in the last decade or so.)
Just imagine a mage becoming an Abomination and going berserk in a shopping mall. Minutes later the video would go viral and cries for the internment or worse of all mages would be heard. A system, that would keep mages under some kind of control, (at least while they are young and vulnerable) while allowing them a voice in these measures and also always making sure they keep their civil rights, would be for their safety as much as for the safety of "normal" citizens.
I do agree with you on the rite of tranquility. In a modern society there would be other ways to confine dangerous mages than that. And it would not be socially accepted.
Mages in the police force to actually investigate "mage" crimes is brilliant.
Yes, I do think mages should be included in the templars (or whatever group takes over to investigate "mage" crimes).
Privileges, lol.
Protection from bandits/darkspawn/cold/plague/village mobs, free food, free clothes, education - these sound like privileges to me.
Yes, victory. Some people in former totalitarian countries miss the good old days of totalitarianism, it's true. Some people would be willing to abject themselves and give up every freedom for a life of servitude and degradation. I kind of feel like Morrigan does about those people. I think they should be free to choose that arrangement if they want it. I'm sure, even with the Circle system abandoned, that someone would be willing to roleplay domineering templar with them. Personally I think they're better off dead.
How very edgy.
Yes, let the record show that I'm not going to write paragraphs of text in this bottomless pit of mage-templar discussion.
Yet you still participate in this bottomless pit of mage-templar discussion and even wrote an overdramatic paragraph about how you think pro-circle mages are better off dead.
Some really good points there, but I have to say, I disagree with this assumption. Yes, in a free society. you should not be punished (i. e. have to live in a mage boarding school etc) if you have not commited a crime. But I think reality has taught us differently. Even free societies are very quick to give up on liberal rights in exchange for security. (And don't get me wrong, this is not something I agree with, but it has been evident in the last decade or so.)
I take it you're going to check yourself into your local maximum security prison then? Better safe than sorry.Protection from bandits/darkspawn/cold/plague/village mobs, free food, free clothes, education - these sound like privileges to me.
Other people also have a hard time understanding that Thedas isn't medieval England and France. When you have a person like Morrigan who, in the world, understands that freedom is preferable to imprisonment on the Chantry's terms, then it's fair game to talk about such notions.Not a good thought experiment as it seems many people in this thread are utterly incapable of shedding modern notions on self determination, natural rights, and secularism when looking at a preindustrial, borderline theocratic in some places. medieval society
Other people also have a hard time understanding that Thedas isn't medieval England and France. When you have a person like Morrigan who, in the world, understands that freedom is preferable to imprisonment on the Chantry's terms, then it's fair game to talk about such notions.
And until Morrigan's ideas are used in the wide scale justification of liberation from the Circle or Chantry Doctrine, they will stay as her own personal beliefs and little more.
Furthermore, we aren't talking about special snowflakes who have the unique privilege that Morrigan has enjoyed all her life, but regular mundanes who, according to you, have been 'indoctrinated; into Chantry thought. So unless you think that if you lived in Ferelden or Orlais and were raised in the context of a mundane/mage in those particular areas, and would still come to the same conclusions as Morrigan who lived alone, raised by Maker knows what Flemeth should be classified as, and whose normal childhood routine involved the hunting of armed knights, then you can't really use that as a justification.
The world of Thedas is a large and complex place.
Those living under Andrastian beliefs have a certain belief and expectation on mages, as they are essentially taught (depending on the Revered Mother and Grand Cleric) that magic itself is a sign of corruption and a curse by the Maker, and are reminded all the time that it was mages that caused sin in the world, it was mages that destroyed heaven while also completely ignoring the cultural context of ancient Tevinter.
In other societies that aren't Andrastian, the Rivaini Seers being borderline Andrastian, the Avar Augers, the Chasind Shamans, the Dalish Keepers, they have a completely different approach to mages and magic, and thus have completely different results.
It's not really indoctrination so much as cultural beliefs. But in a universe where the Fade is shaped by reality and its own reality, and the nature of its denizens can change, based entirely on the will and belief of the people living in the mortal world, how you approach magic is a very large factor in how dangerous it can be, at least in the form of spirits.
Sure, it'll always be dangerous, but I've become more and more convinced that how you approach the fade and spirits, and the nature of magic, and your beliefs and what your will is is just as strong a determiner in the danger the Fade poses to mages.
And that's still not even taking into account the nature of the spirits themselves, many of whom may not even be interested in mortals at all.
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