858 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

The ability of the Fade to change to reflect individual and group beliefs can only go so far though, even Solas knows that demons are out there and its best to not draw attention to yourself in the Fade so they leave you alone.

[In Exile]

I'm not so sure they need a PC level mage before their fears are justified. Even a run-of-the-mill mage is insanely broken next to a run-of-the-mill peasant. I'm under the impression that most peasants in this setting are no stronger or more durable than you get to be doing manual labor for a living. That's more physical power than I've got, but the non-mages shown standing up to mages in the anime, the games, the books and all that have more of it than the laws of physics allow for. An ordinary fieldhand who isn't packing fusion-powered muscles wouldn't be able to fight any longer than it took the mage to determine how best to handle the threat... unless he was standing in a crowd.

Was it his weakness? I'd thought they'd realized he was a Blood Mage, and that was why he wasn't allowed to graduate.

  

Regarding talent what I mean to say was that when people think of the danger of a Mage in setting they're not imagining a mange for whom castings fireball once is the pinnacle of their achievements in magic. We see apprentices lacking even that ability in the a Circle tower in DAO. That does not mean that mages are not dangerous.

I think everyone's feats are overstated in-game compared to the lore but the basic power curve I think remains relatively the same. After all most mages can't really cast spells or control their power without training. I didn't mean to suggest commoners don't fear all mages. I just mean to say that their fear derived from an imagine if what the truly powerful could do.

Regarding Jowan, as I recall it was both. He was jealous of you and his Harrowing hadn't happened so he was ednared in Irving's trap. It's implied he and Gregoire make it possible for mages in the tower to learn BM to flush out dangerous elements. It's the price Irbing has to pay to keep his people safe.

But those less talented Mages are generally thought to be more susceptible to possession and therefore potentially more dangerous, aren't they?

Yes, but I don't think commoners are just afraid of abominations. See e.g. Sera speaking about magic or Flissa with a Mage human PC. Magic itself is fearsome and makes mages tend toward positions of power in society. We see them as leaders in every society that shows them to be free. And not just as being part of the leadership - with tear natural state being leaders and those upside of power being really failures in a personal level. The Dalish despite the lore insistence on their having elders seem exclusively led by a Keeper. With the revelation the only other mages they have are Firsts and maybe a spare that makes mages a natural ruling class. The Avaar have less power realized in a Mage but they are integral to their fatigue - same as (we expect) Seers.

[In Exile]

Not a good thought experiment as it seems many people in this thread are utterly incapable of shedding modern notions on self determination, natural rights, and secularism when looking at a preindustrial, borderline theocratic in some places. medieval society

Because then we're not having a conversation. Yes, if I was a close-minded and racist bigot (I'd dislike elves too) with any formal education and had lived my entire life as a serf I'd probably be all for oppression of my historical and possible future oppressors. But that doesn't really get us anywhere.

[Steelcan]

Because then we're not having a conversation. Yes, if I was a close-minded and racist bigot (I'd dislike elves too) with any formal education and had lived my entire life as a serf I'd probably be all for oppression of my historical and possible future oppressors. But that doesn't really get us anywhere.

Well the alternative is just going around and around in circles as all mage arguments have done since DA:O released

[In Exile]

Well the alternative is just going around and around in circles as all mage arguments have done since DA:O released

The only debate we're really having is whether Mage detention is justified by modern standards. And that speaks to the fact that the issue actually has some weight to it.

[Steelcan]

The only debate we're really having is whether Mage detention is justified by modern standards. And that speaks to the fact that the issue actually has some weight to it.

 

Well modern Western countries seem to have firmly come down on the side of security over personal freedom, at least that's been the trend for the past decade and a half, and a bit longer in some Western European nations.  And that's not even taking into account much more stringent nations like China

[In Exile]

Well modern Western countries seem to have firmly come down on the side of security over personal freedom, at least that's been the trend for the past decade and a half, and a bit longer in some Western European nations.  And that's not even taking into account much more stringent nations like China

There's been a trend but let's not overstate things in that regard in the West. Largely its limited to non-citizens for terrorist offences.

[Zazzerka]

Finn makes it sound comfy as hell, so yeah, bring on the comfortably temperate nights filled with LAN parties and warm chocolate drinks.

 

"err that templar looked at me, that was death in his eyes I think"

 

Pfff. Some mages.

[Lady Artifice]

If Thedas were actually as medievel as its aesthetic, wouldn't we more likely be debating the validity of burning Mages at the stake than their freedom?

 

Shedding modern notions of individual rights, and what? Adopting a fervid paranoia and prejudice? Or a strictly Andrastian perspective? There are too many examples within the lore of people who defy that mindset, in small ways and large. 

 

Shedding awareness of modern ideologies might render debate a bit pointless, and possibly more circular. 

[Steelcan]

If Thedas were actually as medievel as its aesthetic, wouldn't we more likely be debating the validity of burning Mages at the stake than their freedom?

 

Shedding modern notions of individual rights, and what? Adopting a fervid paranoia and prejudice? Or a strictly Andrastian perspective? There are too many examples within the lore of people who defy that mindset, in small ways and large. 

 

Shedding awareness of modern ideologies might render debate a bit pointless, and possibly more circular. 

Well seeing as how witch burning only picked up after the Middle Ages were moving into the Renaissance....

 

Not Modern =/= paranoid and prejudicial.  We need to examine the issue in the context of Thedas and the societies within in it, not inject our own notions of what is right and wrong.  We've seen that there are people in Thedas who believe in freedom, but they have no context for it.  Saying "People should be free because people should be free" hold no water if there isn't anything to back it up, such as natural rights stemming from the inherent dignity of man derived from his creation by God/the Maker.  So what we need is an in universe basis for mage "freedom" and contrast that with the more practical realities of total mage freedom/Circles.

[Jouni S]

If Thedas were actually as medievel as its aesthetic, wouldn't we more likely be debating the validity of burning Mages at the stake than their freedom?

Witch hunts were more a late renaissance/early modern thing than a medieval thing. The medieval Catholic Church was more concerned about heresy (and about mobs accusing people of witchcraft) than about witches.

[In Exile]

Witch hunts were more a late renaissance/early modern thing than a medieval thing. The medieval Catholic Church was more concerned about heresy (and about mobs accusing people of witchcraft) than about witches.

Given how technologically backwards Ferelden seems to be compared to Orlais I think Thedas is closer to the Reneissance than it is to any real medieval period. Given that Orlais has enlightened despots, the architecture and metalworking, etc.

[Lumix19]

Well seeing as how witch burning only picked up after the Middle Ages were moving into the Renaissance....

 

Not Modern =/= paranoid and prejudicial.  We need to examine the issue in the context of Thedas and the societies within in it, not inject our own notions of what is right and wrong.  We've seen that there are people in Thedas who believe in freedom, but they have no context for it.  Saying "People should be free because people should be free" hold no water if there isn't anything to back it up, such as natural rights stemming from the inherent dignity of man derived from his creation by God/the Maker.  So what we need is an in universe basis for mage "freedom" and contrast that with the more practical realities of total mage freedom/Circles.

I guess the in-universe basis is that people in Thedas have a natural right to be free, isn't that why slavery was overthrown?

 

Edit: I'm not comparing the Circles to slavery don't get me wrong but the natural right to freedom seems to be something they have in common.

[QueenCrow]

If we're trying to look at this from a medieval perspective, the question of freedom and injustice is still relevant.  Though we don't get into buzzwords like "inalienable rights" in a medieval setting there is still historical precedent in such big deal medieval things like Magna Carta, which I believe took issue with unjust imprisonment.

 

Perhaps we need a Thedosian Magna Carta for mages?  Of course, anyone who relies upon politics and justice as a last resort may be easily considered foolish.  History and human nature seem to indicate that if people truly want freedom, they have to take it, most often by violent and bloody means, a realism that plays out in all the revolt, rebellion, war and gore in Dragon Age games.

[Steelcan]

Given how technologically backwards Ferelden seems to be compared to Orlais I think Thedas is closer to the Reneissance than it is to any real medieval period. Given that Orlais has enlightened despots, the architecture and metalworking, etc.

which did irk me, too often Medieval settings drift into Renaissance, what with adding in gunpowder and such

[Lady Artifice]

Well seeing as how witch burning only picked up after the Middle Ages were moving into the Renaissance....
.

Acknowledged, but does it really address my point?

There were sometimes laws against sorcery even before the spread of Christianity, for fear of malicious acts against crop harvests, no? There's always a Bogeyman.

I'll defer to your expertise on real world history, but Thedasian society flouts those rules too deliberately for us to try to force them into our understanding of it. It seems like they would prefer that the "middle ages" are more of a loose inspiration for Thedas than a basis for it.

[Ashagar]

Given that gunpowder weapons such as primitive cannons, hand cannons, rockets, organ guns and extremely primitive muskets were a thing in the late middle ages if not every effective it would be unsurprising if they did show up if it wasn't for the Qunari murdering any one in Thadas making noticeable technological progress to keep their tech edge as apparently they haven't advanced their technology since arriving in Thadas.

[Jouni S]

which did irk me, too often Medieval settings drift into Renaissance, what with adding in gunpowder and such

Gunpowder and cannons wouldn't be out of place in a game where warriors wear full plate armor. Both were late Medieval/Renaissance technology, requiring more advanced metallurgy and manufacturing techniques than were available during most of the Middle Ages. Chainmail, hardened leather, and small metal plates would be more appropriate for Medieval warriors.

[Addai]

And until Morrigan's ideas are used in the wide scale justification of liberation from the Circle or Chantry Doctrine, they will stay as her own personal beliefs and little more.

Mage rebellion, hello?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Privileges, lol.

 
Privileges, by definition, are what the Circle is providing the mages -- various amenities free-of-charge, such as: free room-and-board, three meals a day, free healthcare, free education. Your approval matters not to the English language when the word is, in fact, being used correctly.

 

And privileges of people living outside the Circle: nothing... even the nobility need to spend money to get what they have.

That is also what mages will have when they break away -- nothing. Nothing tangible, anyway. I hope the elusive concept of right-to-choose will be of comfort to them in a world with few options to choose from outside the exclusive noble class, where living poor and all the problems that come with it is often called an "inescapable" fate, where the one nation where mages are free and in charge of things actually promotes slavery for commoners as a means of improving their life.

 

I think they should be free to choose that arrangement if they want it.

You can only speak for yourself. And at the end of the day, that's what this discussion is about. Having the right to choose life on your own terms. That covers everything else you brought up.

 

"You can only speak for yourself" only applies to one system: anarchy. In a system with any government, those in power can and do speak for their constituents.

So the next time a government quarantines individuals with contagious disease (like Ebola, to use a recent example), see how far you get with the arguments that "he should have the right to choose that for himself," "he may not actually hurt anybody," and "if he does hurt people, better he did with freedom intact."

 

^ That is precisely the idea behind the Circle: people who carry the un-removable potential to hurt people -- consciously or not! -- do not get to roam freely, because it is insane to let them. Then again, the Circle's residents can be given leave if their "condition" (magic) has been "treated" thoroughly (completed training), so there's that.

 

Because abuse of mages exists outside the Circles, the only alternative is an institutionalized abuse of mages? I think not.

 
And therein lies the blatant double-standard in your position.

 

Though I (and the game in general) have brought up examples of mages who went through the system free of any kind of abuse, you ignore them all and insist to call it an abuse solely for its potential to do so. And yet, when it is pointed out that the same potential exists outside the Circle in no less capacity, you call this acceptable, because it fulfills some personal principle of yours.

 

Better that any catastrophe involving magic takes place somewhere it can ruin civilian lives and create this snowball-effect of hard feelings towards them, than for the same to happen in a static, controlled environment... because "FREEDAHM!!!" And that there are those who would believe they should learn to control their powers before moving about society so that the disasters and widespread hard-feelings may be avoided? Those who put statistics and hard data above feel-good values? The gall...

[The Baconer]

Well seeing as how witch burning only picked up after the Middle Ages were moving into the Renaissance....

 

Not Modern =/= paranoid and prejudicial.  We need to examine the issue in the context of Thedas and the societies within in it, not inject our own notions of what is right and wrong.  We've seen that there are people in Thedas who believe in freedom, but they have no context for it.  Saying "People should be free because people should be free" hold no water if there isn't anything to back it up, such as natural rights stemming from the inherent dignity of man derived from his creation by God/the Maker.  So what we need is an in universe basis for mage "freedom" and contrast that with the more practical realities of total mage freedom/Circles.

 

Then it seems a question of whether you would want mages to be free from the perspective of a peasant, carries about as much significance as whether or not you would want to liberate your slaves from the perspective of a wealthy Tevinter.

[Steelcan]

Mage rebellion, hello?

They are protesting Templar abuses not declaring that they have certain inalienable rights. In fact their manifesto includes that they will continue to uphold Andraste's tenants and punish malificar. Its not n idealogical split,just a protest of application

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

which did irk me, too often Medieval settings drift into Renaissance, what with adding in gunpowder and such

 

Ever hoping for a fantasy game based on a setting inspired by early middle ages or perhaps classical antiquity?

 

Sorry for the off-topicness. 

[Steelcan]

Ever hoping for a fantasy game based on a setting inspired by early middle ages or perhaps classical antiquity?

 

Sorry for the off-topicness. 

absolutely

[Master Warder Z_]

Ever hoping for a fantasy game based on a setting inspired by early middle ages or perhaps classical antiquity?

Sorry for the off-topicness.

Yes.