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[The Baconer]

Auld elves?

 

old; ancient

[Master Warder Z_]

old; ancient

So your speaking of Arcane warriors then and other physical discipline magi.

Not the vast majority that aren't invested in any such discipline.

Alright then, it's good to have clarification.

[The Baconer]

So your speaking of Arcane warriors then and other physical discipline magi.

Not the vast majority that aren't invested in any such discipline.

Alright then, it's good to have clarification.

 

Absolutely. Few are born with magic. Fewer will walk the path of victory and become the perfect weapon.

[Lady Artifice]

I acknowledged this, as I said that I hadn't even talked about the will and personality of the spirits themselves.

 

But if you approach spirits, and not even literally but how you approach your perception of them, already believing them to be a certain way, odds are that you'll actually create more spirits into the way you expect them to be. If you believe that all spirits want a foothold in the mortal world, to possess you or simply kill you, you have a considerably higher chance of meeting those types of spirits because you are, in essence, willing them to be there, or changing the nature of otherwise benign spirits like wisdom or purpose because you simply do not accept them as anything other than harmful.

 

 

Agreed.

 

"Without you, we have nothing, not even us. That's why we want so much." - Cole

[Lady Artifice]

The Harrowing as it occurred in the Mage Origin had a demon you had to outsmart, a demon you had to outfight, and a "benevolent" spirit you nonetheless had to be careful about. That combination of tests and teachable moments doesn't seem like the sort of thing that would just happen if the mages didn't have some control over what the apprentice meets. I don't know how they do it, but the things we observe in the game make the most sense if they somehow do. Even then, the Harrowing is not a perfect way to rule out that mage as a danger, but then if the Templars and First Enchanters didn't realize that they would probably let the Harrowed mages live more freely afterwards.

 

Going back to this, I suppose so. I always chalked up the relevance of those lessons more to the necessities of the narrative than some plan of the circle, but admittedly I don't really know. 

 

It still seems ridiculous to teach lessons for the test during the test, especially when the test is life or death. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Going back to this, I suppose so. I always chalked up the relevance of those lessons more to the necessities of the narrative than some plan of the circle, but admittedly I don't really know. 

 

It still seems ridiculous to teach lessons for the test during the test, especially when the test is life or death. 

Well, the Mage Warden has no option to fall for Pride's trick, and can point out that Valor is arguably acting in a demonic way.

 

I don't think this is the first time the Mage Warden is hearing about demons playing tricks or spirits being dangerous; for the mage not to be warned of those lessons when the Templars and Senior Enchanters know the mages spend every night in the Fade and will have to go through the Harrowing one day would be both evil and careless, and we're one game too early for the Templars to be cartoon supervillains. I do think they want to reinforce both lessons, though.

[Lady Artifice]

Well, the Mage Warden has no option to fall for Pride's trick, and can point out that Valor is arguably acting in a demonic way.

 

I don't think this is the first time the Mage Warden is hearing about demons playing tricks or spirits being dangerous; for the mage not to be warned of those lessons when the Templars know the mages spend every night in the Fade and will have to go through the Harrowing one day would be both evil and careless, and we're one game too early for the Templars to be cartoon supervillains. I do think they want to reinforce both lessons, though.

 

::shrug:: I'd have to assume the necessity of the narrative there as well.

 

I don't think the Templars are inherently villains, cartoon or otherwise. I dislike the current system because I think it manages to subjugate everybody involved. I hate the harrowing because of what I've seen so far, it comes off as throwing a non-swimmer into the deep end of the pool to teach them how.

 

But again, I admit that I don't know for certain exactly how much they're prepared. 

[MisterJB]

Remember how in Witch Hunt there are multiple books in the library on the topic of demons and the Fade?

If they don't study, it's because they don't want to.

[In Exile]

Remember how in Witch Hunt there are multiple books in the library on the topic of demons and the Fade?
If they don't study, it's because they don't want to.

Or it's part of Irving's gambit. Just like there are books on Blood Magic lying about for those stupid enough to learn it.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I hate the harrowing because of what I've seen so far, it comes off as throwing a non-swimmer into the deep end of the pool to teach them how.

 

lol

 

That is actually a pretty damn effective technique. It worked for me, anyway.

 

I'd taken some lessons before that, but never actually figured it out. When I got thrown in, it came together for me. I developed more in one moment than all of my previous lessons combined.

[Lady Artifice]

Remember how in Witch Hunt there are multiple books in the library on the topic of demons and the Fade?

If they don't study, it's because they don't want to.

 

Strictly theoretical research to prepare for the practical application in a life or death scenario. 

 

To me, it sounds like giving a driving student the keys to the car for the first time, right after they pass their written test, and telling them to get out on the freeway. If they can manage not to kill themselves or anyone else under those conditions, they should be okay going forward. 

[Addai]

::shrug:: I'd have to assume the necessity of the narrative there as well.
 
I don't think the Templars are inherently villains, cartoon or otherwise. I dislike the current system because I think it manages to subjugate everybody involved. I hate the harrowing because of what I've seen so far, it comes off as throwing a non-swimmer into the deep end of the pool to teach them how.
 
But again, I admit that I don't know for certain exactly how much they're prepared.

It's worse than that. Remember that the Fade is shaped by human experience. The fear and despair of young mages and the threat and actuality of murder, not to mention deliberately luring hungry spirits with the promise of a meal, weakening an already weakened Veil in Circles... It's more like Battle Royale than swimming lessons.

[Steelcan]

It's worse than that. Remember that the Fade is shaped by human experience. The fear and despair of young mages and the threat and actuality of murder, not to mention deliberately luring hungry spirits with the promise of a meal, weakening an already weakened Veil in Circles... It's more like Battle Royale than swimming lessons.

lol

 

Wynne was such a wreck when she came the Circle, as was Bethany, and Vivienne, and so on.  Many mages are perfectly fine to live in them, so you can stop with the "fear and despair" nonsense as if its universally applicable.

[Lady Artifice]

lol

 

That is actually a pretty damn effective technique. It worked for me, anyway.

 

I'd taken some lessons before that, but never actually figured it out. When I got thrown in, it came together for me. I developed more in one moment than all of my previous lessons combined.

 

I definitely don't deny that it can work, especially for people with good physical capabilities. But what about weaker children or those who are prone to panic?

 

The Mage Warden was hinted to be recognized as exceptionally talented even before their harrowing, and their harrowing itself was acknowledged as particularly "quick and clean." Their experience is not necessarily indicative of that of the majority. 

 

The harrowing works, and in the process it weeds out the weaker Mages. For a pro-templar, I can understand that this might sound like a good thing. But to me, it sounds darwinistic and ruthless. 

[In Exile]

lol

Wynne was such a wreck when she came the Circle, as was Bethany, and Vivienne, and so on. Many mages are perfectly fine to live in them, so you can stop with the "fear and despair" nonsense as if its universally applicable.

Bethany wasn't a wreck. She was wracked with guilt that her family sacrificed a great deal to keep her out of the Circle, but that trauma is exclusively the fault of the Chantry.

With Wynne, I'd note she favoured the Circle because the templars saved her life from the mob and the mundanes laothed and feared her.

[Steelcan]

Bethany wasn't a wreck. She was wracked with guilt that her family sacrificed a great deal to keep her out of the Circle, but that trauma is exclusively the fault of the Chantry.

With Wynne, I'd note she favoured the Circle because the templars saved her life from the mob and the mundanes laothed and feared her.

you'll note I was being sarcastic

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Strictly theoretical research to prepare for the practical application in a life or death scenario. 

 

To me, it sounds like giving a driving student the keys to the car for the first time, right after they pass their written test, and telling them to get out on the freeway. If they can manage not to kill themselves or anyone else under those conditions, they should be okay going forward. 

Not strictly theoretical. The apprentices are expected to deal with Fade creatures in their lessons, as per the Summoning Sciences sidequest in Origins. The Fade Rifter lesson in particular comes off as "Harrowing Lite."

[Hellion Rex]

But what about weaker children or those who are prone to panic?

In these cases, I really don't know what to tell you. If they can't deal with a demon in a test, in a structured place, how could they ever hope to face demonic possession when it comes unawares? And I'm pretty sure they don't send in children to take the Harrowing. I got the sense that it was upper teens before young mages take the Harrowing.

[In Exile]

you'll note I was being sarcastic

Oh. I didn't note.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I definitely don't deny that it can work, especially for people with good physical capabilities. But what about weaker children or those who are prone to panic?

 

The Mage Warden was hinted to be recognized as exceptionally talented even before their harrowing, and their harrowing itself was acknowledged as particularly "quick and clean." Their experience is not necessarily indicative of that of the majority. 

 

The harrowing works, and in the process it weeds out the weaker Mages. For a pro-templar, I can understand that this might sound like a good thing. However, it doesn't sound good to me at all. 

 

No, you're right, that technique is probably not for everyone. I was just, reflecting on past memories a bit there...

[Xilizhra]

In these cases, I really don't know what to tell you. If they can't deal with a demon in a test, in a structured place, how could they ever hope to face demonic possession when it comes unawares? And I'm pretty sure they don't send in children to take the Harrowing. I got the sense that it was upper teens before young mages take the Harrowing.

Well, killing them is grossly unethical. About the only thing you can do is watch over them until they're strong enough to pass.

[In Exile]

In these cases, I really don't know what to tell you. If they can't deal with a demon in a test, in a structured place, how could they ever hope to face demonic possession when it comes unawares? And I'm pretty sure they don't send in children to take the Harrowing. I got the sense that it was upper teens before young mages take the Harrowing.

As far as we've seen in DA (and in the lore) demons don't just sneak up on you. If you're particularly weak willed you're haunted by them. That's why, after all, you get mages who willingly want to become Tranquil.

It seems like the correct solution - on a truly empirical and rights based view - we would use a similar rite that would be designed to ACTUALLY work (so you could get touched by a spirit of the faith and be OK).

Essentially mages would have a choice: risk the demons or risk becoming a seeker. Failure means death or tranquility.

I agree with Xil that those that truly can't handle demons should have their freedom of movement curtailed but note the difference: it's a right they have unless there's a true justification, which is then showing (and expressing) a view they can't handle the dangers to being a mage.

[Lady Artifice]

Not strictly theoretical. The apprentices are expected to deal with Fade creatures in their lessons, as per the Summoning Sciences sidequest in Origins. The Fade Rifter lesson in particular comes off as "Harrowing Lite."

 

That's fair. Again, I acknowledge that the level of preparedness isn't made explicitly clear. 

 

My biggest issues with the harrowing is the trappings during the event itself. The veneer of secrecy, primarily. All that seems to do is make the test more difficult, the better to be certain of the Mages capability and competence at thinking on their feet and resisting demonic influence. That's a very practical approach for them to take, especially when it comes to verifying that a Mage isn't a danger to other people. It's less effective at insuring survival of the Mages themselves, but that's my point. They want the harrowing to be harrowing, and if a few Mages die? Small price to pay to protect "innocent people."

[Lady Artifice]

In these cases, I really don't know what to tell you. If they can't deal with a demon in a test, in a structured place, how could they ever hope to face demonic possession when it comes unawares? And I'm pretty sure they don't send in children to take the Harrowing. I got the sense that it was upper teens before young mages take the Harrowing.

 

The "children prone to panic" thing really only applies to my throwing a kid in the deep end of the pool scenario. 

 

I think it compares to what happens during the harrowing, but only metaphorically. A younger adult is thrust into a situation designed to test them to their limits, and if they fail, they die. At least with the kid in the pool, there's probably someone standing by to jump in after them if they fail. Such an option would ruin the point of the harrowing, at least as it stands now.

 

I think that Mages should be tested, definitely. But not with a one shot, succeed or fail, live or die, event that they don't even know the details of beforehand.

 

I think it could be possible to prepare Mages in a way that actually suggests that their survival is important. 

[dragonflight288]

In these cases, I really don't know what to tell you. If they can't deal with a demon in a test, in a structured place, how could they ever hope to face demonic possession when it comes unawares? And I'm pretty sure they don't send in children to take the Harrowing. I got the sense that it was upper teens before young mages take the Harrowing.

 

I think we actually see a good example of trying to help students overcome that in the mage origin. 

 

On our way to see Irving after waking up, we pass through the library on the first floor and see a lot of mages training. One is learning to control fire and is being taught that the magic will react to his emotions. Upon hearing there are injuries, he starts panicking and loses control of the fire, and the enchanter doused him with ice magic and suggested they start with flint and tinder. 

 

Another apprentice is practicing the magic shield spell while his teacher is throwing spells at him. This student is apparently panicking and fearing that he can't defend himself. His teacher tells him that if he threw all his power into his own spells that apprentice would be obliterated because his fear was overpowering his will and weakening his spell. He then asked the student if he wanted to fall prey to a demon and the apprentice in a very scared voice goes "n..no," and the teacher encourages him to stand firm and know that he can resist whatever is thrown his way. 

 

So there are examples of mages trying to help students overcome their fear so they won't fall prey to demons and not panic.