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[The Baconer]

That's interpretation of scripture.

Who says that magic is not best servings man by being expunge from it.

 

Illiterate heretics, that's who.

 

People of no real worth or consequence. Or credibility.

[Addai]

And whose to say she isn't right to think that?

Self determination is the cornerstone of a principle pro mages tout more then anything.

Free will.

At least they do when it suits their argument.

She's free to jump off the top of Kinloch Hold if she wants. I can still think that her indoctrination and self-hatred are pitifully sad.
 
I honestly think you're trolling with comments like these.

The one we restore?

Much diminished from what it was.

[In Exile]

Which events?

The ones where mages had an opportunity for freedom and used it to side with the very man who broke into the Maker's city and brought the Blight?

Really, it won't matter because Bioware can't have Chantry doctrine be altered by the events of DAI but, in the real world, after something like that happened, it's not hard to imagine the anti-mage doctrine feeling vindicated and grow more powerful.

Dropping the mage point for a second I don't follow your second paragraph. Bioware DID have chantry doctrine (potentially radically altered). With the possible exception of Cassandra we have:

1. Leliana opening up the Chantry to non-humans (no more distance from the Maker) and abolishing the Circles (potentially).
2. Vivienne - a mage (!!!!!!) - being made Divine, which brings them one step closer to Tevinter.

[Boost32]

2. Vivienne - a mage (!!!!!!) - being made Divine, which brings them one step closer to Tevinter.

It doesnt bring the south any step coser to Tevinter. She never used blood magic, she doesnt support slavery or think mages are superior race. She is the most conservative of the 3 candidates, there is no way she will bring Tevinter mindset to the south.

[Master Warder Z_]

She's free to jump off the top of Kinloch Hold if she wants. I can still think that her indoctrination and self-hatred are pitifully sad.

I honestly think you're trolling with comments like these.

Likewise.

[Master Warder Z_]

Illiterate heretics, that's who.

People of no real worth or consequence. Or credibility.

That too is interpretation.

But here we are rehashing the Fenris and Anders line.

[In Exile]

It doesnt bring the south any step coser to Tevinter. She never used blood magic, she doesnt support slavery or think mages are superior race. She is the most conservative of the 3 candidates, there is no way she will bring Tevinter mindset to the south.

 

You're not getting it. The biggest and most radical change that kicked off the (modern) Imperium was the accrual of political power in mages. The doctrinal and theological changes were all justifications to allow mages to hold power. 

 

If Viviene is divine, besides the incredible precedent of a mage running the single most powerful institution in southern Thedas beyond the Inquisition, is that she completely neuters the templars (which is again something Tevinter did, and we even have Dorian comment on it).

To the extent that the Chantry is against mages having political power or free exposure because they can e.g. turn into abominations and the masses fear them, making a mage Divine is not just radical, it's insane. 

[Master Warder Z_]

I have a feeling Bioware is going to off the Divine offscreen somewhere down the line regardless of who it is.

To a new pc it would be lucky to make a gossip conversation or minor codex.

[In Exile]

I have a feeling Bioware is going to off the Divine offscreen somewhere down the line regardless of who it is.

To a new pc it would be lucky to make a gossip conversation or minor codex.

 

If we're not going back to Southern Thedas it'll be exactly like Bhelen vs. Harrowmont or Alistair vs. (or +) Anora. 

[Boost32]

You're not getting it. The biggest and most radical change that kicked off the (modern) Imperium was the accrual of political power in mages. The doctrinal and theological changes were all justifications to allow mages to hold power. 

 

If Viviene is divine, besides the incredible precedent of a mage running the single most powerful institution in southern Thedas beyond the Inquisition, is that she completely neuters the templars (which is again something Tevinter did, and we even have Dorian comment on it).

To the extent that the Chantry is against mages having political power or free exposure because they can e.g. turn into abominations and the masses fear them, making a mage Divine is not just radical, it's insane. 

She doesnt nauter the templars, its your interpretation, the epilogue says she leash the templars to her, only that. She does not let them roam free like in Tevinter, she does not use blood magic or kill her adversary in a ball like the Black Divine.

Why it's insane? She is responsible, she never agreed with mage dominance, she is competent enough to handle the revolts against her. 

[The Baconer]

That too is interpretation.

But here we are rehashing the Fenris and Anders line.

 

I'll interpret the scripture as it was written, and by the intention of both Chantry founders (Hessarian and Drakon). A gift cannot be made to serve if destroyed.

 

Someone might choose to interpret it otherwise, but that is an opinion that need not be seriously considered by anyone as legitimate or useful.

[The Baconer]

It doesnt bring the south any step coser to Tevinter. She never used blood magic, she doesnt support slavery or think mages are superior race. She is the most conservative of the 3 candidates, there is no way she will bring Tevinter mindset to the south.

 

Mages serving as leaders of men by divine right. That is signature Tevinter.

 

Even her efforts to prove to the population that it isn't like Tevinter involves eradicating anyone who disagrees.

[Addai]

You're not getting it. The biggest and most radical change that kicked off the (modern) Imperium was the accrual of political power in mages. The doctrinal and theological changes were all justifications to allow mages to hold power. 
 
If Viviene is divine, besides the incredible precedent of a mage running the single most powerful institution in southern Thedas beyond the Inquisition, is that she completely neuters the templars (which is again something Tevinter did, and we even have Dorian comment on it).
To the extent that the Chantry is against mages having political power or free exposure because they can e.g. turn into abominations and the masses fear them, making a mage Divine is not just radical, it's insane.

If it were any other mage than Vivienne, that might be true. IMO she's more of a templar than the templars, and only interested in restoring the status quo ante so that she retains personal power.

[Boost32]

Mages serving as leaders of men by divine right. That is signature Tevinter.

 

Even her efforts to prove to the population that it isn't like Tevinter involves eradicating anyone who disagrees.

She was elected by the Grand Clerics, they are all no mages, its nor a signature of Tevinter.

 

Show me a Divine that doesnt resort to violence, Cassandra and e Leliana does resort to it, why when Vivienne use it people label her actions as "one more step to Tevinter"?

 

She never used blood magic and consider it a a aberration, she doesnt endorse slavery or sacrifices, templars are leashed to her but still doing their jobs instead of being used against her political enemies, and mages, under her rule, arent free to do anything they want, they still under survilance even if they have more feedom.

The only thing she has in common with Tevinter is that she is a mage, nothing more. Leliana free the mages and no one say "its one more step to Tevinter", even if it still more likely to several mages try to make the south like Tevinter (some of them even allied with them and supported them) than one mage who is against every thing that comes from there.

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

Considering that mages are the reason thedas isn't following the qun and doing things like enchantments and preparing he joining, it would be pretty dumb to kill all mages.

Only a moron would want to kill all mages considering the assistance they provide.

[Lumix19]

She doesnt nauter the templars, its your interpretation, the epilogue says she leash the templars to her, only that. She does not let them roam free like in Tevinter, she does not use blood magic or kill her adversary in a ball like the Black Divine.
Why it's insane? She is responsible, she never agreed with mage dominance, she is competent enough to handle the revolts against her.

Just the simple act of leashing them to her creates a precedent that could follow for all future Divines, some of which could be mages.
I really don't think that what she is doing is responsible, she's creating a system where all power is centered on her and rebellion is swiftly stamped out. The former is dangerous in that the system could collapse upon her death, or even worse become so ingrained that it follows for every future Divine. Whilst the latter is dangerous in that it doesn't actually work to prevent them in the future, especially once she dies and a new Divine takes over.

[The Baconer]

She was elected by the Grand Clerics, they are all no mages, its nor a signature of Tevinter.

 

Show me a Divine that doesnt resort to violence, Cassandra and e Leliana does resort to it, why when Vivienne use it people label her actions as "one more step to Tevinter"?

 

Think about it. Commoners have been told all their lives of the dangers of magic, the depravities suffered 'neath mages in power, and suddenly the head of their religious institution is now a mage. When they, naturally, rebel against this, they are swiftly crushed. It is the legitimization of their fears, and rightfully so.

 

 

She never used blood magic and consider it a a aberration, she doesnt endorse slavery or sacrifices, templars are leashed to her but still doing their jobs instead of being used against her political enemies, and mages, under her rule, arent free to do anything they want, they still under survilance even if they have more feedom.

 

What need has she for blood magic, slaves, and sacrifices? There are no other magelords trying to cap her or challenge her to duels in broad daylight. She won the game. The Magisters can only dream of such a position. Yes, there are Templars in Tevinter, and coincidentally they are mostly used to keep potential competitors in check. Funny, that.

 

Aye, think of it as Hessarian or post-Transfiguration Tevinter. Mage sovereignty done right.

[Lumix19]

She was elected by the Grand Clerics, they are all no mages, its nor a signature of Tevinter.

Show me a Divine that doesnt resort to violence, Cassandra and e Leliana does resort to it, why when Vivienne use it people label her actions as "one more step to Tevinter"?

She never used blood magic and consider it a a aberration, she doesnt endorse slavery or sacrifices, templars are leashed to her but still doing their jobs instead of being used against her political enemies, and mages, under her rule, arent free to do anything they want, they still under survilance even if they have more feedom.
The only thing she has in common with Tevinter is that she is a mage, nothing more. Leliana free the mages and no one say "its one more step to Tevinter", even if it still more likely to several mages try to make the south like Tevinter (some of them even allied with them and supported them) than one mage who is against every thing that comes from there.

I think people think this because Vivienne isn't that far from being a Tevinter herself. Sure she's not on the blood magic/slavery path but she's got the superiority attitude (though not about mages) and the same sense of ruthlessness. Mages who are elevated in her Circle will be either sycophants or mages like her, mages who like rules that let them win, who like manipulation and the Game and employ the same sense of ruthlessness as her. Except the possibility exists that those who rise to take Vivienne's place in the future, either because a rival was too clever for her or she just dies of old age, will be of that same mindset: that survival doesn't allow for sentimentality etc. but may potentially be far worse. Leliana and Cassandra however simply give more governance to the mages, they still don't have any political position. It does remain to be seen however if under Leliana's system mages will be allowed to regain their noble rights.

[Boost32]

Think about it. Commoners have been told all their lives of the dangers of magic, the depravities suffered 'neath mages in power, and suddenly the head of their religious institution is now a mage. When they, naturally, rebel against this, they are swiftly crushed. It is the legitimization of their fears, and rightfully so.

 

 

 

What need has she for blood magic, slaves, and sacrifices? There are no other magelords trying to cap her or challenge her to duels in broad daylight. She won the game. The Magisters can only dream of such a position. Yes, there are Templars in Tevinter, and coincidentally they are mostly used to keep potential competitors in check. Funny, that.

 

Aye, think of it as Hessarian or post-Transfiguration Tevinter. Mage sovereignty done right.

And what should she do? Let them despose her?She was elected by the religious institution. After the revolts she restore both the Templar Order and the Circle of Magi, so how they fear is legitimate? She will have plenty of time to change peoples mind, and not everyone revolted against her.

 

She hates blood magic, this is not just because there is no magelord against her, she believes it to be a weakness, even Cole says she doesnt use, if she was lying he would point it. And the tempalr in the south still guarding the Circle of Magi, so whats the problem?

[Hellion Rex]

I'm still trying to figure out how we managed to get a mage on the Sunburst Throne...what did we do, hold the entire damn Chantry at gunpoint?

[The Elder King]

I'm still trying to figure out how we managed to get a mage on the Sunburst Throne...what did we do, hold the entire damn Chantry at gunpoint?

I guess the Chantry's weakness and the Inquisition's proven strenght lead to This outcome.

[Lumix19]

And what should she do? Let them despose her?She was elected by the religious institution. After the revolts she restore both the Templar Order and the Circle of Magi, so how they fear is legitimate? She will have plenty of time to change peoples mind, and not everyone revolted against her.

She hates blood magic, this is not just because there is no magelord against her, she believes it to be a weakness, even Cole says she doesnt use, if she was lying he would point it. And the tempalr in the south still guarding the Circle of Magi, so whats the problem?

The problem is that the Divine is now the singularly most powerful position a mage can occupy. The sort of mages who will vie for that position are not the sort who sit around reading books, and the people who get that position are potentially those willing to go to extremes to get what they want. It draws certain parallels to how Tevinter got started, a single, very ruthless, mage in a very powerful position who warped politics until only Magisters could rule. Now Vivienne may not be that mage but her successor might.

[Hellion Rex]

The problem is that the Divine is now the singularly most powerful position a mage can occupy. The sort of mages who will vie for that position are not the sort who sit around reading books, and the people who get that position are potentially those willing to go to extremes to get what they want. It draws certain parallels to how Tevinter got started, a single, very ruthless, mage in a very powerful position who warped politics until only Magisters could rule. Now Vivienne may not be that mage but her successor might.

Good point. It's not so much Vivienne that's the problem so much as who could potentially sit the throne afterwards.

[The Baconer]

And what should she do? Let them despose her?She was elected by the religious institution. After the revolts she restore both the Templar Order and the Circle of Magi, so how they fear is legitimate? She will have plenty of time to change peoples mind, and not everyone revolted against her.

 

How is their fear not legitimate? Yes, the Circle of Magi is restored, but with less restrictions and more opportunities to ascend the social ladders for minds like Vivienne. It opens the gate for a greater proliferation of mages in positions of power, but plays it just safe enough to avoid larger, organized rebellion. In the meantime, Templars still remain, but are completely beholden to her authority.

 

 

She hates blood magic, this is not just because there is no magelord against her, she believes it to be a weakness, even Cole says she doesnt use, if she was lying he would point it.

 

When did I say that she lied about not using blood magic, or didn't hate it?

 

 

And the tempalr in the south still guarding the Circle of Magi, so whats the problem?

 

I don't know, what is the problem? Mages can now enter the southern Chantry, a mage is Divine, and the idea that mages must be barred from holding social titles or ranks of authority is being eroded. In addition, this is all being done in a (relatively) orderly fashion. I have absolutely no problem at all with this.

[Hellion Rex]

 

I don't know, what is the problem? Mages can now enter the southern Chantry, a mage is Divine, and the idea that mages must be barred from holding social titles or ranks of authority is being eroded. In addition, this is all being done in a (relatively) orderly fashion. I have absolutely no problem at all with this.

Question though: Is it ever said that mages are actually entering into the priesthood now? I can imagine that people are gonna fight like hell to keep them separate, despite Vivienne being an aberration in the system.