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[In Exile]

Without jumping to deep into this fascinating debate remember that the central moment of schism in Tevinter - as I recall - was a male mage becoming Grand Enchanter (or was it Archon?) and Divine. Vivienne, being the ostensibly Grand Enchanter of her version of the Circle (if we believe her, which I do not think we should) is another parallel of the union of magical power and political power in the Circles with political power in the Chantry.

Modern Tevinter - to put it differently - formed when the greatest power in the Circles and Chantry were unified in the seat of one person and the templars were neutered. Vivivene is a parallel to that time.

[Lumix19]

How is their fear not legitimate? Yes, the Circle of Magi is restored, but with less restrictions and more opportunities to ascend the social ladders for minds like Vivienne. It opens the gate for a greater proliferation of mages in positions of power, but plays it just safe enough to avoid larger, organized rebellion. In the meantime, Templars still remain, but are completely beholden to her authority.



When did I say that she lied about not using blood magic, or didn't hate it?



I don't know, what is the problem? Mages can now enter the southern Chantry, a mage is Divine, and the idea that mages must be barred from holding social titles or ranks of authority is being eroded. In addition, this is all being done in a (relatively) orderly fashion. I have absolutely no problem at all with this.

I actually don't have a problem with this either, I do think mages should be able to hold ranks of authority. But if mages could hold any rank of authority, not just the Divine or whatever pretend rank the Circle grants, there would be much less competition for a single position of power. Every powerful and ambitious mage in Southern Thedas is now having to aim for the skies or go home. If all positions were open there would be places for the most ambitious, the least and everywhere in between. Not that the most ambitious won't resort to blood magic anyway but I think it would be less likely without all the added competition and pressure (hopefully).

[The Baconer]

Question though: Is it ever said that mages are actually entering into the priesthood now? I can imagine that people are gonna fight like hell to keep them separate, despite Vivienne being an aberration in the system.

 

Basing it on the ability to place her upon the Suburst throne, and also the approval boost from saying "Mages shouldn't be kept out of the Chantry. Who knows the dangers of magic better than a mage?".

 

I'm sure people will fight like hell to prevent this, but as the ending states, people who fight Vivienne are not long for this world.

[Lumix19]

Basing it on the ability to place her upon the Suburst throne, and also the approval boost from saying "Mages shouldn't be kept out of the Chantry. Who knows the dangers of magic better than a mage?".

I'm sure people will fight like hell to prevent this, but as the ending states, people who fight Vivienne are not long for this world.

If this is true, which I'm not sure about, then I retract my previous objection.

[The Baconer]

Without jumping to deep into this fascinating debate remember that the central moment of schism in Tevinter - as I recall - was a male mage becoming Grand Enchanter (or was it Archon?) and Divine. Vivienne, being the ostensibly Grand Enchanter of her version of the Circle (if we believe her, which I do not think we should) is another parallel of the union of magical power and political power in the Circles with political power in the Chantry.

Modern Tevinter - to put it differently - formed when the greatest power in the Circles and Chantry were unified in the seat of one person and the templars were neutered. Vivivene is a parallel to that time.

 

Before the schism, the Archon was considered both the head of state and of the religion. Despite Hessarian's reforms, there doesn't seem to be any indication that the position was ever held by a mundane. When the southern Chantry was formed and elected a Divine, Tevinter tried to go along with it for a time. When the southern Chantry declared Tevinter's institution illegitimate, they elected their own separate Divine as a response.

[Hellion Rex]

Without jumping to deep into this fascinating debate remember that the central moment of schism in Tevinter - as I recall - was a male mage becoming Grand Enchanter (or was it Archon?) and Divine. Vivienne, being the ostensibly Grand Enchanter of her version of the Circle (if we believe her, which I do not think we should) is another parallel of the union of magical power and political power in the Circles with political power in the Chantry.

Modern Tevinter - to put it differently - formed when the greatest power in the Circles and Chantry were unified in the seat of one person and the templars were neutered. Vivivene is a parallel to that time.

Regarding the schism, the Archon and Divine were never the same person. It's when the Grand Clerics elected Valhail, a Circle mage and man, to Black Divine the the White Chantry got pissed.

[Hellion Rex]

Basing it on the ability to place her upon the Suburst throne, and also the approval boost from saying "Mages shouldn't be kept out of the Chantry. Who knows the dangers of magic better than a mage?".

 

I'm sure people will fight like hell to prevent this, but as the ending states, people who fight Vivienne are not long for this world.

Not really. If Viv is chosen and you have negative approval with her, you get this epilogue:

 

"Even so, this new Divine's reign is troubled, and signs of fracturing within the Chantry grow daily. Many believe its days are numbered."

 

http://dragonage.wik...ppointed_Divine

 

 

So it sounds like that if you are on her side, then yes, she flourishes. Otherwise, not so much.

[The Baconer]

Not really. If Viv is chosen and you have negative approval with her, you get this epilogue:

 

"Even so, this new Divine's reign is troubled, and signs of fracturing within the Chantry grow daily. Many believe its days are numbered."

 

http://dragonage.wik...ppointed_Divine

 

 

So it sounds like that if you are on her side, then yes, she flourishes. Otherwise, not so much.

 

I mean, her even being a candidate in the first place is nonsensical enough, especially without the Inquisitor's support. Some concessions to reality must be made.

[Addai]

Modern Tevinter - to put it differently - formed when the greatest power in the Circles and Chantry were unified in the seat of one person and the templars were neutered. Vivivene is a parallel to that time.

I just don't see it. She doesn't neuter them, just puts them under her personal power, but re-establishes the base they gained power from before. She won't be around forever.

[EmissaryofLies]

Tevinter is the only answer that Thedas can understand.

[QueenCrow]

While I don't want to interrupt the Divine discussion going on, I'd like to slip a question regarding templars and free mages in here in the hope that someone is willing to give me their interpretations of what the comments (both made by Morrigan in DA:O) mean.

 

-"The templars would come again and she would look at me and smile and say that the fun was to begin once more." [she= Flemythal]

 

-"A little girl to scream and run and lure the templars deeper into the Wilds and to their doom." [Morrigan's role in the fun and games]

 

 

Is there anyone willing to guess on what sort of "fun"?

 

Does "doom" = "death" or is it a more spiritual doom, or doom of faith?  Were they killed or broken?

 

All opinions or interpretations are welcome and appreciated.

[Boost32]

How is their fear not legitimate? Yes, the Circle of Magi is restored, but with less restrictions and more opportunities to ascend the social ladders for minds like Vivienne. It opens the gate for a greater proliferation of mages in positions of power, but plays it just safe enough to avoid larger, organized rebellion. In the meantime, Templars still remain, but are completely beholden to her authority.

I dont see the problem with mages geting more freedom, they still in the Circle either way, Cassandra let them run the Circles and Leliana disband the Circle, why her is the one who will give the proliferation? They have more freedom and responsabilities, its not stated they will achieve positions of power.

I dont see the problem with the templars beholden to her, it will be more difficult to them to abuse their power and she can make her changes  without something like what happened with Justinia, happening again.

The only mage who is in the Chantry is Vivienne, its never stated others joined too.

[Steelcan]

While I don't want to interrupt the Divine discussion going on, I'd like to slip a question regarding templars and free mages in here in the hope that someone is willing to give me their interpretations of what the comments (both made by Morrigan in DA:O) mean.

 

-"The templars would come again and she would look at me and smile and say that the fun was to begin once more." [she= Flemythal]

 

-"A little girl to scream and run and lure the templars deeper into the Wilds and to their doom." [Morrigan's role in the fun and games]

 

 

Is there anyone willing to guess on what sort of "fun"?

 

Does "doom" = "death" or is it a more spiritual doom, or doom of faith?  Were they killed or broken?

 

All opinions or interpretations are welcome and appreciated.

ded

[The Baconer]

I dont see the problem with mages geting more freedom, they still in the Circle either way, Cassandra let them run the Circles and Leliana disband the Circle, why her is the one who will give the proliferation? They have more freedom and responsabilities, its not stated they will achieve positions of power.

I dont see the problem with the templars beholden to her, it will be more difficult to them to abuse their power and she can make her changes  without something like what happened with Justinia, happening again.

 

Of course we (as players, not as Player Characters) don't see anything wrong with it, but we don't matter. Remember what Vivienne herself admitted - magic and mages are more feared now than they have been for centuries. A mage destroys the Chantry in Kirkwall, killing the Grand Cleric. A mage attempts to assassinate the Divine. An ancient Magister-turned-Darkspawn, a literal bogeyman made-manifest, kills Justinia and almost destroys the world. Now the people are faced with the knowledge it is a mage who is named Divine, the Templars are firmly bound by her will... and the greatest predicament of all: that their grievances will be met with steel. The fear, and the comparisons to Tevinter in their minds, might not be necessarily warranted, but it is justified.

 

Now, the out-of-universe comparison to Tevinter apt because it's the Imperium's approach to scripture being put to work. Sometimes the best way the mage can serve man is to lead him.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Since none of that has anything to do with any action undertaken by my characters, I'm not sure what your point is.

Oh just showing how readily the Libertarian movement disregarded the pro-Circle side and threw them under the bus in the interest of pursuing their own personal wants.

They will make fine magisters in Turdvinter 3.0.
 

If the College needs military forces for some reason, I'm sure the Inquisition will be happy to lend it some (given that it would never have formed without the Inquisition's backing to begin with). In any case, letting Cullen break his lyrium addiction seems to spell the beginning of the end for southern templars even if you do Champions of the Just.

And when faced with untrained- and blood-mages that decline being part of it, the College is just going to say "okay!" - ?

 

Seems pretty ineffectual.

[Boost32]

Of course we (as players, not as Player Characters) don't see anything wrong with it, but we don't matter. Remember what Vivienne herself admitted - magic and mages are more feared now than they have been for centuries. A mage destroys the Chantry in Kirkwall, killing the Grand Cleric. A mage attempts to assassinate the Divine. An ancient Magister-turned-Darkspawn, a literal bogeyman made-manifest, kills Justinia and almost destroys the world. Now the people are faced with the knowledge it is a mage who is named Divine, the Templars are firmly bound by her will... and the greatest predicament of all: that their grievances will be met with steel. The fear, and the comparisons to Tevinter in their minds, might not be necessarily warranted, but it is justified.

Now, the out-of-universe comparison to Tevinter apt because it's the Imperium's approach to scripture being put to work. Sometimes the best way the mage can serve man is to lead him.

In this I agree, part of the population will fear Vivienne, this is why she has to deal with three revolts, she will have to work hard to show them otherwise (she started rebuilding both the Templar Order and the Circle of Magi, it surprised many). She will either fail spetacularly or will forever change the southern Thedas view on mages (I bet on the latter).
Still part of the population thinking the south is going to become Tevinter doesnt mean in any way she will ake things like Tevinter, this is what I disagree.

[Xilizhra]

Oh just showing how readily the Libertarian movement disregarded the pro-Circle side and threw them under the bus in the interest of pursuing their own personal wants.

They will make fine magisters in Turdvinter 3.0.

Nothing about Tevinter is bad that's related specifically to mages ruling. A magocracy with different cultural mores would be no different than an aristocracy of mundane blood.

 

 

And when faced with untrained- and blood-mages that decline being part of it, the College is just going to say "okay!" - ?

 

Seems pretty ineffectual.

I have no idea how it'll work. But I don't care, because none of the problems you mentioned are brought up in the game either. If they had been, then maybe I'd be concerned, but since they're not, I see nothing wrong with assuming that they have everything worked out somehow.

[Steelcan]

Nothing about Tevinter is bad that's related specifically to mages ruling. A magocracy with different cultural mores would be no different than an aristocracy of mundane blood.

last I checked, Mundanes can't break into the Fade

[In Exile]

Nothing about Tevinter is bad that's related specifically to mages ruling. A magocracy with different cultural mores would be no different than an aristocracy of mundane blood.


I have no idea how it'll work. But I don't care, because none of the problems you mentioned are brought up in the game either. If they had been, then maybe I'd be concerned, but since they're not, I see nothing wrong with assuming that they have everything worked out somehow.

Hold up. A lot of bad relating to Tevinter comes specifically from mages ruling. That's not to say that somehow that automatically means mages shouldn't have political power or their form of oppression is better or worse from non-mages.

But a substantial portion of the abuses in Tevinter flow from their being mages, such as the commonality of slave blood sacrifice.

In contrast of course we see unique forms of abuse flowing from non-mages ruling in the south, the equivalent example here being the Rite of Tranquillity.

Recognising that mages have unique ways of being abusers isn't really a counterargument to mage freedom, but I think setting wise it is true.

[Steelcan]

In contrast of course we see unique forms of abuse flowing from non-mages ruling in the south, the equivalent example here being the Rite of Tranquillity.
 

Tevinter uses the Rite

[Xilizhra]

last I checked, Mundanes can't break into the Fade

The Blight is older than that, so we don't know if they actually created darkspawn.

 

 

Hold up. A lot of bad relating to Tevinter comes specifically from mages ruling. That's not to say that somehow that automatically means mages shouldn't have political power or their form of oppression is better or worse from non-mages.

But a substantial portion of the abuses in Tevinter flow from their being mages, such as the commonality of slave blood sacrifice.

In contrast of course we see unique forms of abuse flowing from non-mages ruling in the south, the equivalent example here being the Rite of Tranquillity.

Recognising that mages have unique ways of being abusers isn't really a counterargument to mage freedom, but I think setting wise it is true.

The problem isn't that they're mages, it's that they disregard the lives of the weak. Orlesian nobility would do blood sacrifices too if they could. Overentitled and selfish aristocrats are the problem; a magocracy with more restrained nobles like Ferelden would very likely be nicer than Orlais. And Rivain doesn't seem bad at all.

[Steelcan]

The Blight is older than that, so we don't know if they actually created darkspawn.

they still unleashed it upon the world, whether it existed before that or not isn't as relevant

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Nothing about Tevinter is bad that's related specifically to mages ruling. A magocracy with different cultural mores would be no different than an aristocracy of mundane blood.

 

Except magocrats can do things that mundane aristocrats cannot.

Let me illustrate that point: Loghain and Howe were bad. Now imagine if Howe could summon demons in the estate where he had trapped Anora, and that Loghain could use blood-magic on the nobles to keep them from ever calling the Landsmeet.

As Varric would say, it is not hard to figure out that two bad things put together form something super awful.
 
 

I have no idea how it'll work. But I don't care, because none of the problems you mentioned are brought up in the game either. If they had been, then maybe I'd be concerned, but since they're not, I see nothing wrong with assuming that they have everything worked out somehow.

 

It goes without saying that leaving untrained- and blood-mages to their devices is not a good idea.

 

That leaves only one other option, and one which only goes to show the Circle was right after all.

[Xilizhra]

they still unleashed it upon the world, whether it existed before that or not isn't as relevant

I don't know if they did that either. If darkspawn existed beforehand, them finding Dumat shortly after the Black City incident might have been a coincidence.

 

 

Except magocrats can do things that mundane aristocrats cannot.

Let me illustrate that point: Loghain and Howe were bad. Now imagine if Howe could summon demons in the estate where he had trapped Anora, and that Loghain could use blood-magic on the nobles to keep them from ever calling the Landsmeet.

As Varric would say, it is not hard to figure out that two bad things put together form something super awful.

Mages can fight off blood magic quite a bit more easily than mundanes, as demonstrated in DA2 with Idunna. And the what-ifs go both ways; good mages have magic too.

 

 

It goes without saying that leaving untrained- and blood-mages to their devices is not a good idea.

 

That leaves only one other option, and one which only goes to show the Circle was right after all.

It's to every untrained mage's benefit that they receive training, so handling that will be easy. As for blood mages, that's an issue not really covered in this game, so it's not known by anyone what regulations would arise. And the Circle was a problem largely due to Chantry governance and templar interference.

[Steelcan]

I don't know if they did that either. If darkspawn existed beforehand, them finding Dumat shortly after the Black City incident might have been a coincidence.

http://tvtropes.org/...eNoCoincidences