858 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

And therein lies the problem. The law clearly favors one side over the other.

[Bad King]

Two cases.

You cited both of them that I am aware of.

Which is only one more then the evidence against it, so it's little more then a statistical coin flip.

Beyond that, the elf in woods didn't consider himself Dalish, didn't live among them so I'd say he wouldn't count anyway.

So spare me the tripe.

 

Nope, Lanaya also states that she competed with others for her role as the Keeper's first and the Dalish clan in DA2 also take in Feynriel with no intention of taking him as their first, only relinquishing him when they realise the full extent of his powers at which time they decide that he needs to go to Tevinter.

 

Your point regarding Aneirin is irrelevant as his exile in the woods was his own choice, not that of the Dalish clan.

[dragonflight288]

Trained mages are (mostly) only dangerous to those around him.

 

Or extremely helpful. Like if they're trained in healing magic. 

 

And I think every army would love to have a few dangerous mages pointing their magic at the enemy instead of just waiting around.

 

A fully trained soldier is also (mostly) dangerous to those around him as well. 

 

The defining trait is personal choice in how they use their power. 

[dragonflight288]

Nope, Lanaya also states that she competed with others for her role as the Keeper's first and the Dalish clan in DA2 also take in Feynriel with no intention of taking him as their first, only relinquishing him when they realise the full extent of his powers at which time they decide that he needs to go to Tevinter.

 

Your point regarding Aneirin is irrelevant as his exile in the woods was his own choice, not that of the Dalish clan.

 

Slight correction.

 

Feynriel leaves the Dalish on his own when he realizes they can't help him. 

[Lumix19]

They sought to conceal their crimes, but I do find it interesting the type of people Meredith promoted over others. From Emerick who did his level best to investigate legitimate concerns, like a mage in the circle going missing after receiving some lilies and coming across an abandoned warehouse with demons summoned and a person fleeing the scene, well Hawke did, and nothing was done, to expelling Samson for passing love-letters and tranquilizing the mage for writing them and asking him to pass them along.

 

And Cullen's own codex says he was promoted to Knight-Captain because his views matched her own. 

 

Or Ser Metten being in charge of the death squad. 

 

There certainly is a pattern of promoting the sadists to positions of power, then conveniently overlooking anything they may be involved in when it would be super easy to call them out. 

 

We know from Origins that in order to be made Tranquil, both the First Enchanter and the Knight-Commander must sign the order. For every illegal tranquilization that was done in Kirkwall, there is an equally absent record with Meredith's and Orsino's signature. All it would take is to look at her own records and a look at who's tranquil to realize her men are acting rogue. Then a call to the Seekers would have gone a long way to solving the problems. 

Doesn't Cassandra say the Seekers did investigate Meredith? But it was decided that there were so many instances of magical corruption that her actions were justified? I'm not sure what that says about the Seekers though.

[Frybread76]

Well, it would depend.  If my Circle allowed responsible mages who had passed their Harrowing to leave anytime they wanted, then I'd be OK with it.  But if we were basically prisoners I wouldn't want to be there.

 

Also, I'd lean toward freedom if I could avoid the bigots who'd want to crucify me or if, like a freed Jowan in DA:O, I could find people who appreciated me and kept my abilities a secret in exchange for me using my powers for their benefit.

[KaiserShep]

Doesn't Cassandra say the Seekers did investigate Meredith? But it was decided that there were so many instances of magical corruption that her actions were justified? I'm not sure what that says about the Seekers though.

She admits that the Seekers are quick to make a conclusion and aren't likely to change their position.

[Cz-99]

What about "mandatory until completely trained?"

 

An untrained mage is as much a danger to himself as he is to those around him. 

 

If the training was reasonable. I can see them being trained how to resist demonic-possession and how to restrain their spells so that they don't cause unnecessary destruction. But that's as far as it should go. Training a mage how to rain fire down upon a village and then going, "Well, that's that; you're free to go. Just try not to use that spell," would be a bit weird. Instead, if mages wanted to excel at a particular field they could remain in a Circle and possibly find a calling there - 'cause having the Circles give mages jobs might keep many out of trouble. However, if they just wanted to know the basics and only use their magic to improve their daily lives they should be free to do so.
 

[dragonflight288]

Doesn't Cassandra say the Seekers did investigate Meredith? But it was decided that there were so many instances of magical corruption that her actions were justified? I'm not sure what that says about the Seekers though.

 

Cassandra does say that. 

 

And Cassandra also addresses that the Seekers had become corrupt themselves and far from the ideal they were supposed to represent. She makes the point of saying that the Seekers had grown accustomed to their power, and felt that they were the only ones who could address problems. And if they don't see a problem then it doesn't exist. If someone insists the problem does exist then they are the blind one. 

 

But she was talking about the level of power Meredith exercised, while I'm talking about the templars who went behind Meredith's back for their own sadism like rape and illegal tranquilizations and how easy it would have been to expose them had even a token effort been made by their superiors. 

[Lumix19]

She admits that the Seekers are quick to make a conclusion and aren't likely to change their position.

Indeed. I think most of the Seekers, especially under Lambert, already had a conclusion in mind when they went to Kirkwall.

 

Cassandra does say that. 

 

And Cassandra also addresses that the Seekers had become corrupt themselves and far from the ideal they were supposed to represent. She makes the point of saying that the Seekers had grown accustomed to their power, and felt that they were the only ones who could address problems. And if they don't see a problem then it doesn't exist. If someone insists the problem does exist then they are the blind one. 

 

But she was talking about the level of power Meredith exercised, while I'm talking about the templars who went behind Meredith's back for their own sadism like rape and illegal tranquilizations and how easy it would have been to expose them had even a token effort been made by their superiors. 

Absolutely. They were so convinced of their own irreproachability that they led the Templars into a war of righteousness never thinking about what an oxymoron that is.

[MisterJB]

And therein lies the problem. The law clearly favors one side over the other.

The law favours one side over another when the well being of society at large is at stake.
within the Circle, the official stance of the law is that the First Enchanter has the final word meaning that, in theory for it is not always true, the laws favours the mages when within the Circles.

[dragonflight288]

If the training was reasonable. I can see them being trained how to resist demonic-possession and how to restrain their spells so that they don't cause unnecessary destruction. But that's as far as it should go. Training a mage how to rain fire down upon a village and then going, "Well, that's that; you're free to go. Just try not to use that spell," would be a bit weird. Instead, if mages wanted to excel at a particular field they could remain in a Circle and possibly find a calling there - 'cause having the Circles give mages jobs might keep many out of trouble. However, if they just wanted to know the basics and only use their magic to improve their daily lives they should be free to do so.
 

 

There seems to be a lot more to training mages, if the Vivienne and Solas dialogue is anything to go by.

 

Like aura and energy control, with Solas asking about the aura surrounding Vivienne's staff. 

 

And I'm sure if a mage wanted to master healing magic, they would want as much training as possible to be as much good in the world, which would likely include longer time in the Circle. Whereas a mage who wanted to join the army would probably need to study a great deal on what kind of combat magic they would like, from Knight-Enchanter, elemental magic or even acting in support of other troops with wards or such. 

 

I guess it depends on what the mage in question wants to get into. 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 An apostate? No. What kind of fool would want to be live outside the Circle as anything but nobility (which no mage can be)?

 

 

I mean, if it's the Kirkwall Circle, then sure I might consider getting out of dodge. However, everything points to Kirkwall being the exception, not the rule (though, it is still probably an improvement over the Kirkwall itself for common folks).

[MisterJB]

They sought to conceal their crimes, but I do find it interesting the type of people Meredith promoted over others. From Emerick who did his level best to investigate legitimate concerns, like a mage in the circle going missing after receiving some lilies and coming across an abandoned warehouse with demons summoned and a person fleeing the scene, well Hawke did, and nothing was done, to expelling Samson for passing love-letters and tranquilizing the mage for writing them and asking him to pass them along.

 

And Cullen's own codex says he was promoted to Knight-Captain because his views matched her own. 

 

Or Ser Metten being in charge of the death squad. 

 

There certainly is a pattern of promoting the sadists to positions of power, then conveniently overlooking anything they may be involved in when it would be super easy to call them out. 

 

We know from Origins that in order to be made Tranquil, both the First Enchanter and the Knight-Commander must sign the order. For every illegal tranquilization that was done in Kirkwall, there is an equally absent record with Meredith's and Orsino's signature. All it would take is to look at her own records and a look at who's tranquil to realize her men are acting rogue. Then a call to the Seekers would have gone a long way to solving the problems. 

The thing is, all of that was already tried and it exists. Templars guard and advise, the First Enchanter has the final word in matters concerning the Circle. Mages will not consort with demons. Templars will not old political power . Neither will mages, for that matter.

 

But if people, mages and Templars, think they can get away with it, they will.

[dragonflight288]

The law favours one side over another when the well being of society at large is at stake.
within the Circle, the official stance of the law is that the First Enchanter has the final word meaning that, in theory for it is not always true, the laws favours the mages when within the Circles.

 

Until a Knight-Commander decides to usurp authority from the First Enchanter. Then the mages are just kind of stuck.

 

Or if a Grand Cleric decides the Right of Annulment is needed, then every man, woman and child will die regardless of guilt or circumstance. 

 

Or if a Seeker or Knight-Commander decides not to enforce the rules on their own. 

[Scuttlebutt101]

Sure, if your prospects are a filthy hovel in a slum then there's a lot of appeal, but this certainly isn't true of everyone.

Same goes for abuse by Templars - this isn't the case for every Circle.

[MisterJB]

Or extremely helpful. Like if they're trained in healing magic. 

 

And I think every army would love to have a few dangerous mages pointing their magic at the enemy instead of just waiting around.

 

A fully trained soldier is also (mostly) dangerous to those around him as well. 

 

The defining trait is personal choice in how they use their power. 

A soldier can be disarmed. And a sword is not as dangerous as magic.

 

The issue I have with the claim that training mages should be the ultimate answer to dealing with the magic issue, is that it only diminishes the likelihood of a mage being possessed.

It does nothing to account for the possibly of a mage simply wanting to hurt others.

[KaiserShep]

The law favours one side over another when the well being of society at large is at stake.
within the Circle, the official stance of the law is that the First Enchanter has the final word meaning that, in theory for it is not always true, the laws favours the mages when within the Circles.

The official stance is fairly meaningless. The knight-commander's authority can easily supersede that of the first-enchanter and there's precisely squat the mages could do about it, save kill everyone and run screaming into the night.

[MisterJB]

Until a Knight-Commander decides to usurp authority from the First Enchanter. Then the mages are just kind of stuck.

 

Or if a Grand Cleric decides the Right of Annulment is needed, then every man, woman and child will die regardless of guilt or circumstance. 

 

Or if a Seeker or Knight-Commander decides not to enforce the rules on their own. 

Just like a mage can mind control or simply influence a monarch through money, connections, etc.

That the system can be abused applies as much to one side as the other. It probably applies more to mages since they have more means.

[MisterJB]

The official stance is fairly meaningless. The knight-commander's authority can easily supersede that of the first-enchanter and there's precisely squat the mages could do about it, save kill everyone and run screaming into the night.

That varies from Circle to Circle.

For instance, I'm not seeing the Mortalitasi having the Knight Commander superseding the First Enchanter's authority on a whim easily.

[dragonflight288]

The thing is, all of that was already tried and it exists. Templars guard and advise, the First Enchanter has the final word in matters concerning the Circle. Mages will not consort with demons. Templars will not old political power . Neither will mages, for that matter.

 

But if people, mages and Templars, think they can get away with it, they will.

 

And we see plenty of examples of both sides abusing power.

 

From Meredith seizing political power in Kirkwall after Dumar's death, and getting away with it because she had the largest standing army in the city, to Orsino's acting behind her back and aiding Quentin, an insane serial killer. To the templars and apostates in the hinterlands who went completely nuts, either on a power trip or just plain zealotry. 

 

In theory the First Enchanter should have the last say, in practice it doesn't seem to work like that. The Chantry or the Templars seem to have the last say. 

 

Like I said earlier, it would probably be a lot more productive if both sides sat down and actually agreed on universal boundaries that apply everywhere. Like Templars have only so much authority, and no one, not even the Chantry can grant them more, but the mages are expected to handle themselves to this certain extent in exchange. 

 

Give more authority to the templars, and you need to hold them to a much higher standard of accountability, including more rigorous punishment should they cross the line, but if you give more autonomy to the mages then the same standard applies. Higher level of accountability required. 

 

Kind of like in Haven no matter who you side with, Cassandra has to deal with knuckleheads. From templars being overly zealous to the mages not knowing how to handle being treated as equals and expecting certain demands on both sides, and her going so wonderfully "deal with it."

[dragonflight288]

A soldier can be disarmed. And a sword is not as dangerous as magic.

 

The issue I have with the claim that training mages should be the ultimate answer to dealing with the magic issue, is that it only diminishes the likelihood of a mage being possessed.

It does nothing to account for the possibly of a mage simply wanting to hurt others.

 

If a mage decides to hurt others, then punish him to the full extent of the crime. 

 

If it's a simple prank gone wrong, then take into account how much damage was done. If someone was killed, then treat it as first-degree murder. It's no different than if you were punishing someone else who decided to harm others.

 

Mages have more power, and that's why templars exist. They're trained to fight mages. But we shouldn't punish people for crimes they have not committed and may not even be interested in committing. Mages are people, same as anyone else. They are born with more power and danger to themselves and those around them, so they should be held to a higher standard to make up for it, but we shouldn't punish them indefinitely for something they haven't actually done. 

[Sable Rhapsody]

But would you want to be imprisoned in one?

 

As in taken in whether you wanted to or not, being monitored every second of every day, and having people have the final say in whether you were allowed to leave or transfer to a different Circle.

 

That assumes you'd have the freedom to leave if you wanted.

 

IMO freedom is all very well and good for us moderns to bandy about, and it's a strong theme of the mage rebellion.  I get that.  It's a good story.

 

But if I was born and raised in a world like Thedas, where starvation and exposure and violence were common problems?  Where life for the average person isn't exactly a cakewalk?  Freedom is great, but I'd worry about concrete things like shelter, food, and education first.  My point is that if I was a Thedasian mage, without the benefit of meta-knowledge about the setting, I don't think I'd be any different from any other Circle mage.  My opinions would be very strongly shaped by what Circle I was in.  So if I grew up in a Circle like Kirkwall, I probably would've been 100% aboard the Anders train.  One like Montsimmard or Ferelden, not so much.

[Livi14]

I am pretty sure I would want to free myself from the Chantry rule with all these disgusting, atrocious practices forced upon people who haven't committed any crime.

[KaiserShep]

That varies from Circle to Circle.
For instance, I'm not seeing the Mortalitasi having the Knight Commander superseding the First Enchanter's authority on a whim easily.

This is why I'm not on the abolishment train, since that's not really a solution that does well for anyone, except the sinister Vints. However, it's in serious need of reconsideration for a great many practices, like the gross lack of serious oversight, and the Chantry's involvement.