858 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

If a mage decides to hurt others, then punish him to the full extent of the crime. 

 

If it's a simple prank gone wrong, then take into account how much damage was done. If someone was killed, then treat it as first-degree murder. It's no different than if you were punishing someone else who decided to harm others.

 

Mages have more power, and that's why templars exist. They're trained to fight mages. But we shouldn't punish people for crimes they have not committed and may not even be interested in committing. Mages are people, same as anyone else. They are born with more power and danger to themselves and those around them, so they should be held to a higher standard to make up for it, but we shouldn't punish them indefinitely for something they haven't actually done. 

The law is worthless if mages are the ones writing it.

But that is a different argument alltogether. Suffice it to say, it would be ridiculously easy for a mage or an abomination to commit crimes and erase memories to escape punishment. Or simply destroy a small village and then move on. Thedas does not have cellphones, internet, cars, helicopters, etc. The time of response of Templars is simply far too slow to deal with the threat mages pose unless they are down the hall already.

 

Ultimately, I definitively agree they should not be punished before they commit crimes. But I do not see keeping them in Circle as punishment.

It's prevention, that is all.

[Lumix19]

A soldier can be disarmed. And a sword is not as dangerous as magic.

 

The issue I have with the claim that training mages should be the ultimate answer to dealing with the magic issue, is that it only diminishes the likelihood of a mage being possessed.

It does nothing to account for the possibly of a mage simply wanting to hurt others.

A sword may not be as dangerous as magic but anyone can wield a sword. The point I think is not that swords or magic is dangerous, it's that people are dangerous. And that wrings true of anybody. But that doesn't mean we should go round punishing people for crimes they might commit.

[KaiserShep]

This does fuel my speculation as to how a future Thedas would deal with this. I imagine there'd be something like the equalists from LOK.

[Jaison1986]

The law is worthless if mages are the ones writing it.

But that is a different argument alltogether. Suffice it to say, it would be ridiculously easy for a mage or an abomination to commit crimes and erase memories to escape punishment. Or simply destroy a small village and then move on. Thedas does not have cellphones, internet, cars, helicopters, etc. The time of response of Templars is simply far too slow to deal with the threat mages pose unless they are down the hall already.

 

Ultimately, I definitively agree they should not be punished before they commit crimes. But I do not see keeping them in Circle as punishment.

It's prevention, that is all.

 

You would have no disagreement with me there, but the issue is that the people running the circle are not suited for the job. The best solution is to let someone other then the templars in charge of things. Be it the mages themselves or an neutral party, like the Inquisition.

[Sable Rhapsody]

This does fuel my speculation as to how a future Thedas would deal with this. I imagine there'd be something like the equalists from LOK.

 

A Thedas version of Amon would have made a fascinating villain.  Someone articulate, charismatic, and capable enough to get a bunch of very dangerous and impassioned people on his side.

[MisterJB]

You would have no disagreement with me there, but the issue is that the people running the circle are not suited for the job. The best solution is to let someone other then the templars in charge of things. Be it the mages themselves or an neutral party, like the Inquisition.

Mages can't be trusted to police themselves.

Just look at what they did in Redcliff. They completely washed their hands off what those maniacs were doing in the Hinterlands.

If you still believe otherwise, ask the elves if humans policing each other has worked out well for them.

 

As for a neutral party, it would be just like the Templars unless you have some other pool of recruits. Ultimately, the Templars are not a specific ethnic group with some biological condition that makes them harmful to mages.

They're just common people of Thedas recruited for a job. You can change the name but so long as your recruits are Thedosians, you'll just end up with Templars by a different name.

[dragonflight288]

The law is worthless if mages are the ones writing it.

But that is a different argument alltogether. Suffice it to say, it would be ridiculously easy for a mage or an abomination to commit crimes and erase memories to escape punishment. Or simply destroy a small village and then move on. Thedas does not have cellphones, internet, cars, helicopters, etc. The time of response of Templars is simply far too slow to deal with the threat mages pose unless they are down the hall already.

 

Ultimately, I definitively agree they should not be punished before they commit crimes. But I do not see keeping them in Circle as punishment.

It's prevention, that is all.

 

I never said the mage had to write the law, only that both sides should agree how much authority each other has and respect those boundaries, no exceptions.

 

But the law is equally worthless if the mages aren't protected under it or given fair treatment by those who would protect them. Nor is it of any value if it doesn't hold the people charged with enforcing the law to a level of accountability. 

 

No matter who enforces the law, be it over mages or mundanes, I do expect a certain level of responsibility and accountability to those enforcing it, and thus hold them to a higher standard than I would someone else. For example, a merchant in Denerim being charged with corruption and trying to buy off those who are investigating his business practices which may include extortion, bribing officials or such. Said merchant is guilty of corruption, but if a guard captain was found guilty of the same things, I would hold the guard captain more responsible than the merchant because it's the guard's job to prevent such things. 

 

If we're going to have templars enforcing laws on mages, then the templars must be held to a much higher standard, but if the mages are in charge of enforcing laws on their own within their individual circles then the mages in charge ought to be held to a higher standard as well. 

 

I get why you don't think that Circle's are punishing the mages. I happen to think that Circle's can be a really good thing if used properly. The problem with current Cirlces, before Inquisition that is, is how little oversight the overseers (templars) had and how easily mages could be abused by those in power because the current laws did next to nothing to hold the templars to a certain standard and be punished accordingly when they fell short or abused their power. And mages were given so few rights that it would feel more like a punishment to live there than the blessing it could be in having food, shelter and an education. 

 

I mean, if you can get beaten for talking to civilian visitors, then you're not living in a wonderful shelter full of security keeping you safe from the world. If tranquility can be forced upon you for the most minor offenses, like writing love letters and asking a templar to deliver them, then the Circle will most definitely seem a punishment and not a blessing. 

 

Which is why certain boundaries must be set up and respected, with the appropriate level of accountability applied to both sides. 

[KaiserShep]

Well, in fairness both factions let their renegades do as they please, and the Lord Seeker let a demon run the show. I don't suppose the mages could really hope to rein in their own in the Hinterlands without having Templars fight them every step of the way.

[dragonflight288]

Mages can't be trusted to police themselves.

Just look at what they did in Redcliff. They completely washed their hands off what those maniacs were doing in the Hinterlands.

If you still believe otherwise, ask the elves if humans policing each other has worked out well for them.

 

As for a neutral party, it would be just like the Templars unless you have some other pool of recruits. Ultimately, the Templars are not a specific ethnic group with some biological condition that makes them harmful to mages.

They're just common people of Thedas recruited for a job. You can change the name but so long as your recruits are Thedosians, you'll just end up with Templars by a different name.

 

Templars can't be trusted to enforce the law fairly either. They've already proven their zealotry and fanaticism keeps them from seeing the mages as people overall. 

 

Templars aren't a specific ethnic group. But they are a fully trained religious military organization with a set chain-of-command and philosophy they are taught, sometimes from infancy as Cullen and Alistair both tell us about some who train to be templars. So they are a culture in and of themselves in how they are brought together by religious doctrine, training and camaraderie. 

 

Either disband the templars and start over from scratch, or allow the mages more autonomy within the circles itself, but one way or another the system is in dire need of reform.

[MisterJB]

I never said the mage had to write the law, only that both sides should agree how much authority each other has and respect those boundaries, no exceptions.

I never said you did but I believe that if mages are given the same rights and freedoms as everyone, they will turn whatever society they're in into a magocracy.

 

 

I mean, if you can get beaten for talking to civilian visitors, then you're not living in a wonderful shelter full of security keeping you safe from the world. If tranquility can be forced upon you for the most minor offenses, like writing love letters and asking a templar to deliver them, then the Circle will most definitely seem a punishment and not a blessing. 

 

Which is why certain boundaries must be set up and respected, with the appropriate level of ACCOUNTABILITY applied to both sides. 

I agree that Templars need to be held accountable and no one denies Kirkwall's Circle took it too far.

Still, when Bethany is given leave to go to a party, I doubt the veracity of "lashes for talking to a civillian" 

At the very least, it's obviously not an universal rule.

[X Equestris]

Well, in fairness both factions let their renegades do as they please, and the Lord Seeker let a demon run the show. I don't suppose the mages could really hope to rein in their own in the Hinterlands without having Templars fight them every step of the way.

And from what Fiona says, it seems like the rebels in Redcliffe don't have very large numbers either.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Well, in fairness both factions let their renegades do as they please, and the Lord Seeker let a demon run the show. I don't suppose the mages could really hope to rein in their own in the Hinterlands without having Templars fight them every step of the way.

 

Yeah, both sides were at a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" point by DA:I.  They can't pull their own troops to reign in the renegades, because then the other side will just capitalize on their split attention and decimate them.  So their renegades run rampant, causing problems for everyone including those who have no stake in the war.  

 

Fortunately, in steps the Inquisitor to help.  Or make things worse.  Hard to tell at this point 

[MisterJB]

Well, in fairness both factions let their renegades do as they please, and the Lord Seeker let a demon run the show. I don't suppose the mages could really hope to rein in their own in the Hinterlands without having Templars fight them every step of the way.

There is always difficulties in upholding the law and delivering justice. If the mages feel they can wash their hand off it if they feel it's more trouble than normal people are worth, why should they be trusted to police each other?

[KaiserShep]

Yeah the game doesn't give us the best sense of scale as far as the fighting is concerned, especially since 4 people single-handedly cleared the woods of both groups.

[MisterJB]

Templars can't be trusted to enforce the law fairly either. They've already proven their zealotry and fanaticism keeps them from seeing the mages as people overall. 

 

Templars aren't a specific ethnic group. But they are a fully trained religious military organization with a set chain-of-command and philosophy they are taught, sometimes from infancy as Cullen and Alistair both tell us about some who train to be templars. So they are a culture in and of themselves in how they are brought together by religious doctrine, training and camaraderie. 

 

Either disband the templars and start over from scratch, or allow the mages more autonomy within the circles itself, but one way or another the system is in dire need of reform.

Overall is quite the large claim. Even in Kirkwall, letters from mages within the Circle tells us most Templars were not interested in fighting or Tranquilizing mages.

[KaiserShep]

There is always difficulties in upholding the law and delivering justice. If the mages feel they can wash their hand off it if they feel it's more trouble than normal people are worth, why should they be trusted to police each other?

Here is the problem with this idea: all Templars are combatants, but not all mages are well suited for combat of any kind.

[Toxicity]

No sure, considering how poorly Mages are treated as it is, Templars at least provide some protection (though some treat Mages very poorly). From what I've come to learn, a Mage is treated differently based on which Circle they're part of, some have more freedom than others, which is what I'd expect. However, I do not believe a person, or an animal, for that matter, should be forced to live in some sort of cage their entire life, no matter how much freedom the Mages are given they're still tied to their Circle, they'll never get the chance to roam the world without fear of being killed or captured because they were born with the ability to cast magic. So to sum up my answer, yes, I would want to be free, not tied to a Circle, but I'd have to live in fear of being caught, or worse, killed for something that can't be changed. 

 

I hope that makes some sense, lol, I'm not very knowledgeable in Mage's Freedom as is. I only know of what seldom I read and heard in-game. 

 

(Open for corrections)

[Sable Rhapsody]

There is always difficulties in upholding the law and delivering justice. If the mages feel they can wash their hand off it if they feel it's more trouble than normal people are worth, why should they be trusted to police each other?

 

I think a lot of that has to do with lack of real-world experience.  A mage like Viv is the exception rather than the rule.  Whether you conscript or ally with the mages, it's pretty clear that most mages have no idea what the flying f*** they're doing when it comes to interacting with the rest of the world.  Perfectly understandable, but problematic when they're trying to prove that they can be trusted to govern themselves.  It's a catch-22 for them; they have no grasp of the world outside the tower, the world they'd have to live in if they were free.  Yet they have no opportunity to even try or learn until the Inquisition gets involved.

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB, it's probably been a year or so, but it's been fun having this verbal dance again. 

[dragonflight288]

Overall is quite the large claim. Even in Kirkwall, letters from mages within the Circle tells us most Templars were not interested in fighting or Tranquilizing mages.

 

And mages weren't interested in blood magic until desperation came upon them, by the most part from our observations, by templar action or overreaching authority. 

[nikki-tikki]

I'd play it Vivienne style. She holds her own leash. 

[MisterJB]

And mages weren't interested in blood magic until desperation came upon them, by the most part from our observations, by templar action or overreaching authority. 

I disagree. I think Alain is the only one that can be said of.

Do you want to go case by case? 

[MisterJB]

Here is the problem with this idea: all Templars are combatants, but not all mages are well suited for combat of any kind.

That still bring us back to "The mages will police each other until they feel it's more trouble than it's worth".

 

The Templars are not relevant, here.

[In Exile]

If the world of Thedas was real, and you were a mage, would you want to be free?

Obviously?

[Lumix19]

That still bring us back to "The mages will police each other until they feel it's more trouble than it's worth".

 

The Templars are not relevant, here.

Or they will police each other as best they can, it's not really they're fault if they have limited resources and lack the manpower to properly deal with the issue. Unless you expect them to do some suicidal and futile run against the issue and die in the process.