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[Addai]

Mages can't be trusted to police themselves.
Just look at what they did in Redcliff. They completely washed their hands off what those maniacs were doing in the Hinterlands.
If you still believe otherwise, ask the elves if humans policing each other has worked out well for them.

That's a backwards comparison. Templars are to mages as humans are to elves- they hold all the power, legal authority, and social sanction to do as they please.
 
This is why I don't debate this subject with you. Your interpretation is farcical.

[turuzzusapatuttu]

Of course, I would not ever want to be in the southern Circle. Living my whole life in that confined space would surely depress me.

 

I would want to live with and be nurtured by people who have understanding of magic (how to use it, danger of it, and benefits of it) but not fear of magic, promoted by religious propaganda. Mage Hawke before the blight sounds like a good situation.

 

I want to be judged by what I've done, not what I might do or what other mages did.

 

 

A cat, apparently. 

 

I agree with every word you said.

 

Especially the cat part. 

 

I am a mage dwarf. Fear my staff!!!

 

 

Or even a modest farming family. You don't need to be super wealthy to lead a good life in Thedas.

 

I like to think that it's possible in real life too.

[KaiserShep]

That still bring us back to "The mages will police each other until they feel it's more trouble than it's worth".

The Templars are not relevant, here.

But in this case, the Templars are relevant, as is the fact that the rebels, at least those who aren't Venatori infiltrators, are a hodgepodge of refugees, many of which opposed the rebellion. So now they're at fault because they have the audacity to avoid a pointless death trying to take down a violent band of mages, the sell swords that they hired, AND the Templars they're fighting. It just seems terribly unreasonable.

[MisterJB]

That's a backwards comparison. Templars are to mages as humans are to elves- they hold all the power, legal authority, and social sanction to do as they please.
 
This is why I don't debate this subject with you. Your interpretation is farcical.

Your is lacking in depth.

First of all, the notion that Templars hold all the power is dashed by the lore and what we can see in the games. It was not true in Ferelden, it was not true in Kirkwall, it was not true in Orlais, it was not true in Rivain. And I am nearly 100% certain it is not true in Tevinter or Nevarra.

 

Second, the unbalance of power between humans and elves would not be relevant if humans cared if a human hurt an elf which they do not. Therefore, trusting mages to police themselves is to place all of the power in the hands of people who won't care if a mage hurts a normal person as we have already seen happen in DAI.

[MisterJB]

But in this case, the Templars are relevant, as is the fact that the rebels, at least those who aren't Venatori infiltrators, are a hodgepodge of refugees, many of which opposed the rebellion. So now they're at fault because they have the audacity to avoid a pointless death trying to take down a violent band of mages, the sell swords that they hired, AND the Templars they're fighting. It just seems terribly unreasonable.

Yes, they are at fault.

If they rebel on the basis that they can be trusted to deal with problematic mages, I don't see what is so unreasonable about expecting them to deal with problematic mages.

Besides the fact, of course, that the maniacs terrorizing the Hinterlands were strong enough to keep the maniac Templars at bay, meaning the main mage force could have cleared them out if they had actually bothered.

[dragonflight288]

I disagree. I think Alain is the only one that can be said of.

Do you want to go case by case? 

 

lol. I'm sure we can. Bear in mind that most of the blood mages we meet in the game are not actually from Kirkwall, until Act 3.

 

Now I was being silly but let's be fair. We'll hold templars and mages to the same standard. Meaning templars and mages with actual names will be the ones used, and not the random mage or templars we fight, then we'd both have quite a bit of cannon fodder to supply our argument. 

 

But let's limit it to Circle mages who were actually part of Kirkwall's circle, and not say Hadriana who was a magister's apprentice. I'll go act by act with confirmed blood mages and their personal circumstance. Not just mages who are rogue or are apostates like that mage among the raiders in Act 2. They're confirmed as using blood magic. If I miss any, feel free to correct me.

 

Act 1: Four or five confirmed blood mages, none of them actually from Kirkwall.

 

• Thrasks's daughter isn't a confirmed blood mage, but she was driven to abominationhood by desperation because of slavers. 
• Idunna wasn't part of the Circle, she came with Tahrone.
• Tahrone.
• Decimus and Grace came from Starkhaven and are genuine blood mages, so they count as people not driven by desperation. 
• Quentin has been driven mad by grief over the death of his wife, but was never part of Kirkwall's Circle
• Merrill, but also not part of the Circle, and the most she'll do at you is make frowny faces. 

Act 2: Only two more confirmed blood mages than Act 1, and again not from Kirkwall.

• We meet Quentin for real after he kills Hawke's mother.
• Gaspard Dupuis, Quentin's apprentice, also not a member of Kirkwall's circle. 
• Hadriana comes in from Tevinter. Actual blood mage but not part of Kirkwall's circle. 
• We find out that Meredith has either tranquilized or executed three of Grace's party at random as an example to other mages. 
• Mage among the raiders. We know he's a criminal but he's never seen using blood magic.

 

So, after two acts, which covers 5 years, we have only five or six truly confirmed blood mages, and none of them are part of Kirkwall's circle. Then we get to Act 3, where Meredith has seized political power and is keeping the city from running itself and is being driven mad by the idol.

 

Act 3: 1 genuine bad mage, Grace, 1 mage who is debatable, Orsino, three mages driven mad by conditions in the circle, one mage who is desperate, Alain, and one idiot who never practiced blood magic or became an abomination.

• Thrask's rebellion. Filled with mages and templars who sought to depose Meredith due to her unlawful rule. Known blood mages in it, Grace and Alain. Grace is nuts and makes no sense story wise, but is an example of a mage going bad for....reasons and Alain has been badly abused by the templars and wanted to defend himself. At this point they both count as part of Kirkwall's circle. 1 bad mage, 1 mage driven by desperation.
• That elven escaped mage who went to the alienage. He was driven absolutely nuts by his treatment in the Circle, like being ripped from his wife and taken from his home in chains. His psyche shattered by conditions in the Circle.
• Evelina turned herself into the Circle in exchange for the orphans she was raising to receive aid. The orphans were ignored and she turned into an abomination trying to help them. She cared for these Ferelden orphans when no one else would, including the Chantry. Yet another mage who's psyche is essentially destroyed by conditions in the Circle.
• That one mage who's name I can't remember who escaped the Circle to spend the night with a girl. Absolute idiot but not a blood mage or abomination. Simply a stupid man-child who was denied having a relationship with girls during his stay in the Circle.
• Orsino, who claims  to never practiced blood magic until the Circle itself was being annulled. This is debatable, but he also has no reason to lie at this point either.
• The blood mages in the annulment are forced into die, or die situation and chose to fight back however they could. If the Champion sides with the mages, there are a lot less blood mages. One confirmed blood mage at the docks that fights no matter who Hawke sides with. 
• Denarius, the Tevinter Magister

 

Over the course of seven years in-game, we have truly only two or three mages tops who are confirmed blood mages who are from Kirkwall who's actions aren't necessarily also involved with the templars treatment of them. 

 

Whereas when it comes to templars who have been given names we have,

 

1. Kerras
2. Thrask
3. Alric
4. Meredith
5. Kerran
6. Cullen
7. Metten
8. Samson
9. Emerick
10. Possibly Carver

 

4/9 templars, 5/10 if Carver is a templar, who aren't that bad and part of the problem and increasing tensions in the Circle itself.

 

Mages as part of the Circle.

1. Possibly Bethany
2. Orsino
3. Grace
4. Alain
5. Evelina
6. Huon (the elf, I think)
7. The idiot who wanted the night with a girl whose name I can't remember
8. The alchemist
9. Decimus (who barely counts since he was from Starkhaven, but I'm including him since he's in the game and was part of a circle)

 

5/8 mages (5/9 if Bethany is in the Circle) arguably negatively influenced by conditions in the circle, with only 2/5 confirmed bad because of their own choices leaving three who were driven mad by desperation or how they were treated.

 

When it comes down to it, name for name, templar for mage, it's roughly equal in how crappy it is. 

[Steelcan]

But in this case, the Templars are relevant, as is the fact that the rebels, at least those who aren't Venatori infiltrators, are a hodgepodge of refugees, many of which opposed the rebellion. So now they're at fault because they have the audacity to avoid a pointless death trying to take down a violent band of mages, the sell swords that they hired, AND the Templars they're fighting. It just seems terribly unreasonable.

then they should have made for Montsimmard or one of the other Circles still in operation (we get glimpses at a few in War Table missions)

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Depends on who the new Divine is and the state of the Templars. If I have to worry about Templars hunting me down and killing me on sight, then no, I don't think I'd want to be an apostate unless I was already at a Circle where life was unbearable. Otherwise, sure I'd want to live freely. Despite what Vivienne and others say, I'm not afraid of a few villagers with pitch forks.

[Steelcan]

Depends on who the new Divine is and the state of the Templars. If I have to worry about Templars hunting me down and killing me on sight, then no, I don't think I'd want to be an apostate unless I was already at a Circle where life was unbearable. Otherwise, sure I'd want to live freely. Despite what Vivienne and others say, I'm not afraid of a few villagers with pitch forks.

I mean whats the worst a lynch mob can do?

[MisterJB]

*

A good analysis but I, unsurprisingly, disagree with some points.

 

First, Grace. Even if helped to escape, her main beef is with Hawke because he killed her lover. Therefore, logically, she would have become an Abomination regardless of the Circle in order to fight Hawke.

 

Huon. He never mentioned the Templars in his ramblings, only humans in general. It's just as likely he harboured hatred against humans from the beginning and his education at the Circle simply gave him the ability to act on them.

 

Evelina also never mentions the Templars. Rather, she was infuriated with Hawke due to him living in Hightown while "her" kids starved. Meaning, it's entirely likely that anger over it and desire to give them a better life would have made her an Abomination eventually, Templars or no.

 

The Circle itself. Some points against them.

Orsino had correspondence with a blood mage. Worse, he provided him with the means to create Frankenstein's monster. Even if we believe in him when he says he had no idea what he was doing, which is unlikely because he knew enough not to reveal him to Meredith, why keep his research?
Then, Orsino managed to perfectly create an Harvester on the spot? No practice? No study of blood magic?

Also, are we expected to believe mages who had never had contact with blood magic before managed to learn how to summon and control blood mages in the time it took for Hawke to walk from Lowtown to the Gallows? 

Finally, in Lowtown, Orsino never offers Meredith the chance to search the tower. Suddenly, after he had been there, he is willing to. What is he hiding?

All of this points to there being a presence of blood magic in the Circle long before Meredith lost it. Grace, Alain and Huon had to learn it from somewhere.

 

Lastly, how is Carver a problem?

[Krypplingz]

-snip-

 

Whereas when it comes to templars who have been given names we have,

1. Kerras
2. Thrask
3. Alric
4. Meredith
5. Kerran
6. Cullen
7. Metten
8. Samson
9. Emerick
10. Possibly Carver

-snip-

 

You're missing Hugh, Paxley, Ruvena, Moira, Wilmond, Roderick and Conrad from the list of named templars.

Hugh is a good guy, speaks out against Meredith and gets kicked out of the order. (He's also the one who speaks up when looking for Wilmod). Paxley is super paranoid against the mages and thus follows Meredith and Ruvena is a boot licker, seeing Meredith as a saint. None of them are seen or heard abusing mages tought. Wilmod is the templar who goes abomination, we never meet him before that, so his decency is debatable.

Moira is the templar who takes over Emericks investigation. She's doesn't seem to be abusing mages, but she's not that effective in hunting them either.

Ser Conrad is the one you can accuse of sacrificing goats to the Great demon and he's presumably bad. Ser Roderick is the one you report to, but he is too addled by lyrium to take a stance. 

[MisterJB]

You're missing Hugh, Paxley, Ruvena, Moira, Wilmond, Roderick and Conrad from the list of named templars.

Hugh is a good guy, speaks out against Meredith and gets kicked out of the order. (He's also the one who speaks up when looking for Wilmod). Paxley is super paranoid against the mages and thus follows Meredith and Ruvena is a boot licker, seeing Meredith as a saint. None of them are seen or heard abusing mages tought. Wilmod is the templar who goes abomination, we never meet him before that, so his decency is debatable.

Moira is the templar who takes over Emericks investigation. She's doesn't seem to be abusing mages, but she's not that effective in hunting them either.

Ser Conrad is the one you can accuse of sacrificing goats to the Great demon and he's presumably bad. Ser Roderick is the one you report to, but he is too addled by lyrium to take a stance. 

Also, there is one young female Templar who only appears if you have Keran expelled.

She is trying to pay for his debts. Unfortunately, I can't recall her name now.

[Shechinah]

Well, I would say this escalated and derailed but this is pretty much par for the course when it comes to threads that have even an inch to do with mage-related topics.

[MisterJB]

Wait, found her. Margitte.

 

[Krypplingz]

Also, there is one young female Templar who only appears if you have Keran expelled.

She is trying to pay for his debts. Unfortunately, I can't recall her name now.

 

Margitte. I'd forgotten about her. She's a sneaky snake but doesn't really seem like a mage abuser.

-Ninjad-

[MisterJB]

How is she a snake? I recall her saying she would pay Keran's debts if she had the coin.

The wiki doesn't make it seem like I missed anything.

Besides, she is too pretty for that.

[Killdren88]

Create.a page.on Tumblr and say This.is.Mundane.privilage

#Yesallmages

But unlike our world Mages have actual grievances

[dragonflight288]

Thanks for including the people I forgot.

 

I apologize if I was unclear about Carver. I meant to include him as an example of a decent templar who didn't cause problems. 

[dragonflight288]

You're missing Hugh, Paxley, Ruvena, Moira, Wilmond, Roderick and Conrad from the list of named templars.

Hugh is a good guy, speaks out against Meredith and gets kicked out of the order. (He's also the one who speaks up when looking for Wilmod). Paxley is super paranoid against the mages and thus follows Meredith and Ruvena is a boot licker, seeing Meredith as a saint. None of them are seen or heard abusing mages tought. Wilmod is the templar who goes abomination, we never meet him before that, so his decency is debatable.

Moira is the templar who takes over Emericks investigation. She's doesn't seem to be abusing mages, but she's not that effective in hunting them either.

Ser Conrad is the one you can accuse of sacrificing goats to the Great demon and he's presumably bad. Ser Roderick is the one you report to, but he is too addled by lyrium to take a stance. 

 

Thanks. Completely forgot these guys. 

[MisterJB]

Offtopic but can you imagine Anders reaction if he was told how the Seekers have had the "cure" for Tranquility for 900 years and have, in fact, made Tranquil and restored every single one of their recruits but withheld it from mages?

 

Glorious.

[Krypplingz]

How is she a snake? I recall her saying she would pay Keran's debts if she had the coin.

The wiki doesn't make it seem like I missed anything.

Besides, she is too pretty for that.

 

I'm just being silly, the last time I talked to her I said no to her quest and she said it was for the best. Then I talked to her later and she made another attempt to put the quest on me. It became a little running gag that playthrough, Margitte trying to trick JerkHawke into doing her quest and JerkHawke ever so cruel in denying her. I just used sneaky snake because it has sneaky in it and snakes are adorable. (From a distance).

[KaiserShep]

He'd probably blow up a chantry.

[Ashagar]

So far the success rate for mages isn't on the tranquil isn't so good according to Cassandra causing them to be a danger to both themselves and others because a emotional unstable mage is about as safe as having a emotionally unstable psyker around that. Something to do with the fact that unlike the seekers who are only tranquil for a moment, the tranquil mages have often been so for much longer.

[MisterJB]

Cassandra was Tranquil for a year.

[KaiserShep]

But Cassandra was not a mage.