30 réponses à ce sujet

[berelinde]

Can two mages have children?

 

There's a lot of fan-fiction where two mages have babies, but that isn't quite what I'm looking for. I don't object to it, and I'm certainly not interested in invalidating anyone's headcanon, but I'm curious about the lore.

 

The game and supplemental media give us several characters with one mage parent, and countless more with no mage parent, but I'm unaware of a single instance where a mage-mage union has produced a child.

 

Alistair (non-mage): son of Maric (non-mage) and Fiona (mage)

Rhys (mage): son of Wynne (mage) and an unnamed templar

Matthias (non-mage): son of Wilhelm (mage) and unnamed (non-mage) mother

Bethany Hawke (mage): daughter of Malcolm Hawke (mage) and Leandra Amell (non-mage)

Carver Hawke (non-mage): ibid

Hawke the Champion (player election): ibid

Unnamed de Launcet: unborn child of Emile de Launcet (mage) and Nella (non-mage)

Dorian Pavus (mage): son of Halward Pavus (mage) and unnamed (non-mage) mother

 

One might argue that we don't know that Dorian's mother isn't a mage, but Dorian's description of his mother is rather telling. She is said to come from a family with a strong magical bloodline, not that she herself was a mage. If she were a mage, it would have been just as easy for him to say "She was chosen for my father because she's a gifted mage." But no, Dorian says that her family has produced powerful mages. And when Dorian rejects his parents' plan to marry him off to a well-connected girl, it's Halward who's doing the blood magic to change his mind. Plus, not every child born into families with magic will be a mage. It makes sense to marry off the non-mage children to mages in order to preserve status.

 

So, what happens when two mages attempt to have a baby? Do they experience reduced fertility? Are homozygous mage babies spontaneously aborted before the pregnancy is detectable?

 

To anyone who answers, thanks for indulging my curiosity.

[springacres]

It's possible.  If you are a mage and do the DR with Morrigan, and/or romance her, she gets pregnant.   I think the reason it's so uncommon for two mages to have a child is simply that magic is so heavily frowned upon outside of Tevinter, and a child born of two mage parents stands a close to 100% chance of being a mage him- or herself.  (This was one reason my M!Surana wasn't interested in doing the DR himself.  Elf-blooded mage child with the soul of an Old God?  No, thank you.)

[berelinde]

I thought about that, actually, but I had to disqualify it. David Gaider said point blank that the only way a Warden would be able to produce a baby would involve fertility magic, so that might overcome mage-mage infertility, too. Dunno.

[theskymoves]

The DA:I codex entry for Witherstalk appears to indicate that apprentices mages use that plant for contraceptive purposes... if mage/mage sexual activity never resulted in a viable pregnancy, there would be no reason to use a 'preventative'. (While the entry doesn't spell out that the pair 'amusing' themselves are both mages, it seems likely from the context and tone of the exchange.)

[Koneko Koji]

On the wiki entry for Mages, it says:

Children who are born to mages within the Circle are taken to be raised in a Chantry orphanage, either until they are old enough to make a life on their own (likely within the Chantry itself as a cleric or templar) or their magical abilities have manifested and they are returned to the Circle.

 

It cites David Gaider, Asunder page 120 as the source.

[MisterJB]

The whole "Grey Warden parenthood? Only with magic" doesn't seem to fly when one takes into account Morrigan can have a not-Old God baby if she just sleeps with the Warden and Fiona had Alistair(although it is, I suppose, possible the Taint had already left her body when she got pregnant).

[berelinde]

The DA:I codex entry for Witherstalk appears to indicate that apprentices mages use that plant for contraceptive purposes... if mage/mage sexual activity never resulted in a viable pregnancy, there would be no reason to use a 'preventative'. (While the entry doesn't spell out that the pair 'amusing' themselves are both mages, it seems likely from the context and tone of the exchange.)

 

 

On the wiki entry for Mages, it says:

Children who are born to mages within the Circle are taken to be raised in a Chantry orphanage, either until they are old enough to make a life on their own (likely within the Chantry itself as a cleric or templar) or their magical abilities have manifested and they are returned to the Circle.

 

It cites David Gaider, Asunder page 120 as the source.

Alright, these definitely answer the question "Can two mages produce a child?". Reading between the lines, I agree that the two apprentices are discussing contraception (and possibly recreational pharmacology, but anyway...). And yeah, I remember that there was something in Asunder, but I couldn't remember where it was (the passage *or* the book). Thanks for clearing it up!

 

I'm reluctant to use anything involving either Morrigan or the protagonist to support or refute any argument about fertility. If Zevran could get the Warden pregnant, or if the Warden could get Leliana pregnant, I would gladly acknowledge that the Warden is capable of getting somebody pregnant without fertility magic, but when it only applies to Morrigan.... well... OGB or no, it's fertility magic, not a naturally occurring event. If the Warden's swimmers could outrun the Blight, the genetics of being a mage would pose no obstacle at all.

 

I wasn't asking for any particular reason. I am not writing any fanfiction involving mage parents. I am making a mod that involves a spirit healer, but there aren't any kids in it. It was just one of those questions that was bouncing around in the back of my brain causing trouble.

[springacres]

A fair point, that, about Morrigan. She certainly isn't averse to enhancing fertility with magic (she says as much in the lead-up to the DR scene) so that certainly could play a role.

[Kantr]

Isn't the reason Morrigan gives that Riordan is no good because he's been tainted too long but you or Alistair or Loghain haven't so are thus still fertile?

 

Also Fiona didn't use any Fertility magic with Alistair's father.

[berelinde]

Isn't the reason Morrigan gives that Riordan is no good because he's been tainted too long but you or Alistair or Loghain haven't so are thus still fertile?

 

Also Fiona didn't use any Fertility magic with Alistair's father.

Fiona is a special case. She was cured of the taint by that point and wasn't a Warden anymore.

 

I don't count Morrigan because the Dark Ritual is a plot device and lore doesn't really apply. At one point, the writers were going to allow female Wardens to father an OGB with Morrigan using the argument that it's magic and not subject to biology. In its final incarnation, Alistair and Loghain were still fertile enough for her purposes. Anyone not using fertility magic to conceive is out of luck.

[Lady Artifice]

You don't have to look any further than Tevinter to confirm that yes, Mages have children all of the time.

 

http://dragonage.wik...vinter_Imperium

 

There, a Non Mage being born into the Altus class (Mages believed to be descended from Dreamers or the Magisters capable of speaking with the Old Gods) is an embarrassment on the Altus family. 

 

The upper echelon of Tevinter society is all about preserving magical bloodlines, and this means usually keeping the lower classes (identified by the lack of magical ability) out of the running for inclusion in the marriage market. According to a codex at a keep you claim in Crestwood, and Altus even having an affair with a Soporati (non Mage class) is looked at with disdain. 

[AgeofDragon]

Anders actually mentions something along the lines of this to Carver at one point, how not all children in a mage-blooded family end up with magic. Though the amount of magic in a family does increase the odds, such as with siblings. So it is a thing that magic can be hereditary and the more of it you have the more likely children are expected to be mages (two mage parents are extremely likely to have a mage child).

 

The only two places where there are enough mages for this to happen often are the Circle and Tevinter (because Dalish have fewer mages and extensive coupling rituals, while Qunari do not breed their mages together often). In Tevinter it is encouraged because of strong mage blood and having a non-mage child in upper reaches of Tevinter is spit upon, which makes me think it'd be hard for Dorian's mother to be wed off if she was in fact a non-mage. While in the Circle, mage child are extremely frowned upon and both parties can be punished for the coupling, so I have no doubt that it is something they try to prevent as much as possible. Therefore it is completely safe to assume coupling of mages with mages are just too taboo, because it does almost always result in a mage child. Otherwise it really wouldn't be something looked upon in Circles, rather Mages coupling with Templars would be considered far worse and unfortunately they are not (they are rather too often an encouraged abuse of power).

 

Which another thing to think about is in how many of those non-mage/mage couples, does the non-mage have mage-blood in their family? Many of them we don't know, but I do know that the Amell's (Leandra's family) did in fact have very heavy mage roots and it's actually one of the biggest reasons Leandra's parents disliked the couple. Leandra was bringing more magic into the family after all, rather than breeding it out. So that also goes back the point, that the more mage blood in the family the more likely a mage child will be conceived within the family.

[Potato Cat]

I really, really doubt that Dorian's mother is not a mage. She'll almost definitely be a powerful Altus mage herself. Especially if she comes from a strongly magical line. There's no way Halward wasn't going to marry a mage. She's just not mentioned as much by Dorian because she's not relevant to the story Gaider wanted to tell.

[Mr Plow]

If my mage can make fire with his hands he should be able to light a fire in his pants tbf

[Sifr]

Matthias (non-mage): son of Wilhelm (mage) and unnamed (non-mage) mother

 

Just curious, do know for certain that Matthias wasn't a mage?

 

Legacy showed that non-Mages can still use Wards that were created by a magical parent because it recognises the bloodline, so it's possible that he's not, but it'd be interesting to wonder if either he or his daughter Amalia could posses magic of their own? It would explain why Kitty was so eager to have one of them to possess, even when the Warden was willing to let Kitty leave which would have allowed her to find someone else to possess?

[MisterJB]

Fiona is a special case. She was cured of the taint by that point and wasn't a Warden anymore.

 

I don't count Morrigan because the Dark Ritual is a plot device and lore doesn't really apply. At one point, the writers were going to allow female Wardens to father an OGB with Morrigan using the argument that it's magic and not subject to biology. In its final incarnation, Alistair and Loghain were still fertile enough for her purposes. Anyone not using fertility magic to conceive is out of luck.

http://dragonage.wik...e_Birth_of_Fear

 

Unless that is Kieran or adopted or mommy had an affair, that child had a Grey Warden father.

 

[andy6915]

http://dragonage.wik...e_Birth_of_Fear

 

Unless that is Kieran or adopted or mommy had an affair, that child had a Grey Warden father.

 

If the debate is about Grey Warden's, the lore only says that 2 grey wardens together makes having a child pretty much impossible. A single grey warden isn't enough taint to make pregnancy impossible, just more unlikely and difficult.

[Ranadiel Marius]

http://dragonage.wik...e_Birth_of_Fear

Unless that is Kieran or adopted or mommy had an affair, that child had a Grey Warden father.

That doesn't mean the father was a Grey Warden when the child was conceived though.

[springacres]

This is about mages, not Grey Wardens.

[Mike3207]

Gaider's quote actually says that two Wardens can't have a child together unless some very strong magic is involved. I've got the idea from past fanfiction(not worth anything but a interesting idea) that it's easier for Wardens to have children soon after they attempt the Joining. If they're going to have children, you'd think it'd have to be in the first 2 years.

 

As for 2 mages-sure. As long as the Chantry doesn't find out about it.

[turuzzusapatuttu]

This thread is not what I would have expected from the title...

[springacres]

This thread is not what I would have expected from the title...

That seems to happen a fair amount around here, actually.  One thread I was in went from "Alistair is half-elf" to discussing the nuances of conversation options with other characters within the first two pages.

[BSpud]

So what happens when a non-mage Altus is born? What social class is he or she considered to be? Are they still considered by their families to be viable for mage procreation?

[MayleneAlterban]

Party banter on Wynne and Alistair's part seems to suggest that mages can have children with other mages. I mean, okay, I guess Wynne isn't completely explicit about who she had the child with, but she mentions in the banter leading up to this particular conversation that mages often seek out each other's "company" despite it being frowned upon by the templars. Which leads me to believe she had lain with another mage. Whether that child possessed the gift of magic is unknowable, but... Yeah.

 

Also, as previously mentioned, mage main characters who romance and sleep with Morrigan but don't do the Dark Ritual still cause the pregnancy slide in the Epilogue, so unless somebody would like to either argue that the Taint (which normally makes people less fertile) actually reversed the effects of being a mage, or suggest that Morrigan (for some inexplicable reason) actually used magic to increase fertility during her casual pre-Love sex with the Warden, then it's pretty clear that mages can make each other pregnant.

 

That's my take on it, anyway.

[Illegitimus]

 

So, what happens when two mages attempt to have a baby? Do they experience reduced fertility? Are homozygous mage babies spontaneously aborted before the pregnancy is detectable?

 

 

 

The fact that sex between mages is discouraged and any resulting offspring confiscated strongly indicates that mages can have children with other mages and those children will have a high chance of being mages in turn.  The reason why we mostly see mage/non mage offspring is has more to do with it being more likely that mages will conceive outside of the tower where most of the potential partners and especially spouses will be flatscans.  The Tevinters probably make a point out of ensuring that no nobles who are flatscans are left unmarried to mages because it encourages aristocratic cohesiveness and keeps said nobles from losing their status to mage predation.