However, The Old Republic is a grey area and the official story team not only are listed in the credits, Disney also watches over the MMO. Likely, it will be canon.
Disney out and out proclaimed that any and all elements of the universe not covered in the films, the CW series, or any media made prior to May 2014 is no longer valid canonically.
It's not canon.
As an added thought, I always assumed Cerberus was filling their ranks with refugees they got from Sanctuary. They'd send some off to be made into husks for Henry's expiraments and some off to be made into their soldiers. Additionally, I don't find it too hard to believe that they could come up with a small but considerable navy by the time ME3 rolled around. As others have said, most of their operations seem to be single cruiser affairs, relying on shock and awe and subversion/disinformation to get the job done. It always seemed like they needed to hit fast and hard, and would quickly loose the upper hand in a prolonged fight.
That's just my two cents, anyway.
Source? (Just kidding, there is none. There's no evidence here to back you up)
CHA is "a well-respected corporation."
That's literally the best information I can get on them.
As well, much of your statement is based on speculation.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
I can believe the number of troops. I don't know how big their fleet is exactly though. I can believe all the gunships. trucks, and fighters. And we already know he can finance the construction of multiple space stations.
I can see troop numbers come ME3, and I can see a small armada of ships.
What I can't see is the complete omnipresence of them to the point where they're essentially comparable to any organized fleet of a major species.
Are you serious? Have you read the books? (excluding Deception, which may as well be considered non-canon).Source? (Just kidding, there is none. There's no evidence here to back you up)
CHA is "a well-respected corporation."
That's literally the best information I can get on them.
As well, much of your statement is based on speculation.
Source? (Just kidding, there is none. There's no evidence here to back you up)
CHA is "a well-respected corporation."
That's literally the best information I can get on them.
As well, much of your statement is based on speculation.
I don't know if TIM himself owns the company, but Cord-Hislop IS a front for Cerberus (it should have been apparent by the name, Cord is a reference to Eva Core, and Hislop refers to Ben Hislop, TIM's 2 closest friends).
I'm not denying all of Cord-Hislop Aerospace, I'm denying some of the information you've claimed (without evidence).
Show me the evidence, the proof where Cord-Hislop is specifically able to produce their own fleet (or called the largest shipwrights in the alliance).
So, I actually just dug out my electronic copy of Ascension to search the transcript and refresh my memory on the matter. Cord-Hislop is actually described as a "midsized starship manufacturer" - as in, midsized for the galaxy at large, not just for the Alliance- which is an impressive status for a human company as it is. If you haven't read the books, I recommend you do. They add a fair amount of back story and extra information to the lore. I get the impression that you just Googled and looked up Cord-Hislop on the mass effect wiki.I'm not denying all of Cord-Hislop Aerospace, I'm denying some of the information you've claimed (without evidence).
Show me the evidence, the proof where Cord-Hislop is specifically able to produce their own fleet (or called the largest shipwrights in the alliance).
Even in space, giant warships do not just disappear.
Ok, maybe in space they might. But not on paper- specifically the ledgers and tax receipts.
I hate accounting. But even I know a company, no matter what it does, would never be able to just hide such massive assets and expenditures.
Something, something, "it's just a matter of resources" , something, something, Dark Side.
P.S. We have Batman-level money.
Personally, I'm in favour of Cerberus getting this army treatment. I don't ponder too much on the plausibility of this, only that they exist. ME2 to me shows vast resources available to the Illusive Man. Not too much of a stretch to me that Cerberus is so formidable army.
I would have liked Galaxy at War to be a turn based strategy game on top of ME3 where a turn is defined by the completion of a Priority mission by Shepard and that the factions at war are Reapers, Cerberus and the... Council races? So to me, Cerberus definitely would need to be a notable faction.
Okay, I've seriously had to bring this up/point it out about a hundred times now:
TIM is the owner of Cord-Hislop Aerospace company, which is the LARGEST STARSHIP MANUFACTURER IN ALLIANCE SPACE for both civilian AND military ships. They are like 22nd century Boeing. And he has owned this company for nearly thirty years. This is the primary front company for Cerberus (of many front companies) and his primary source of income.
If it would be possible for one man to secretly manufacture a fleet of starships while having decades of foreknowledge about the Reapers, it would be TIM. Hell, it wouldn't even be hard for him to do at all.
Boeing couldn't build a fleet to rival any global superpower without someone noticing. Especially when they still have to fulfill contracts and such to maintain the masquerade. I can't imagine Cord-Hislop could do the same. Money has to go somewhere. People build the ships, you can' t just disappear umpteen thousands of workers without people noticing. Nor lose the materials needed to build all these ships, armor, weapons, etc with "accounting errors"
a) Not that few, Shepard alone blows his way through, what? A couple hundred of Cerberus troops? I mean on Omega we kill masses of the guys. What I'm saying is that every one of these troopers is wearing Cerberus armour, which they manufactured personally somehow. In fact - it doesn't even make sense that they were making all this kit when it wasn't until after ME2 that they had any means of forcing people to use it for them.
b. It matters if they want it to make some kind of sense. They established Cerberus' reach and limits in ME2 (and even then they were too powerful imo), and then in ME3 they achieve stuff they shouldn't have possibly been able to. That they were doing it whilst pouring a sizeable chunk of their finances into Shepard doesn't help the case.
c) But the fact that they even have a navy that's capable of contending with military fleets is silly. Iakus reminded me of the other cruisers they have popping up all over the place. The point is that sure, the codex mentions what they're up to, but what they're up to is logistically impossible. What the codex says doesn't justify what Cerberus become able to do.
I know some suspension of disbelief is required - hell, sometimes I wish I were better at it - but Cerberus stretch that way too far, the other issue being that it's for the purpose of giving them a place in the plot that I don't even like them occupying. Another point you raise is the intel - TIM becomes some omniscient wizard somehow.
a) but they also established Cerberus's plans and ambitions
b. But as a result of ME2, they were given more power because ME2 was their gamble. Its all in the narrative. They swell their ranks with Reaper tech. Also, in this thread was mention of shell companies, not just Cerberus itself.
c) I don't think so. In fact, while Cerberus ships may be stronger than the Alliance counterparts, their fleet strength is small. In fact, Aria's trash fleet does well in a surprise attack against them and the Fifth Fleet crushes the Cerberus fleet at Chronos. Once again, they use their ships more for operations with a single ship or defending stations.
You're going to have make a lot stronger of an argument to support your claim than using one throwaway line of codex with dubious language as your 'indisputable proof'. Since said evidence does not exist (and is thus incapable of being denied), our criticism goes from your argument to you: Quit making silly leaps of interpretation and treating others as if they are less intelligent and uninformed as you. Quit making dubious claims with questionable (and unverifiable) evidence to push your own ideology and agenda forward to make yourself seem more 'in the know' and 'better' than anyone else.
Cherry picking? It is you that has the logic flaw, ignoring clear evidence of the story addressing a concern that critics raise but miss. This is ignorance. Face facts here, your criticism does not hold water.
Boeing couldn't build a fleet to rival any global superpower without someone noticing. Especially when they still have to fulfill contracts and such to maintain the masquerade. I can't imagine Cord-Hislop could do the same. Money has to go somewhere. People build the ships, you can' t just disappear umpteen thousands of workers without people noticing. Nor lose the materials needed to build all these ships, armor, weapons, etc with "accounting errors"
And how does a Cerberus fleet rival a superpower?
It doesn't, you are making it up, make believe evidence to try and prove your point.
In fact, the Fifth Fleet alone is much larger than Cerberus's entire fleet. See Chrono's station.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Either way, the best Cerberus villain in ME3 was a goofy woman named Maya Brooks. No space battles necessary. A big waste of money really.. sleeper agents do the job better.
Bioware fell into the trap that a lot of Science Fiction writers fall into when they delve into military fiction. They completely ignore logistics, and often don't take into account whether the size of the armies or navies they wrote into their work are plausible, based on the population or resources available to the nation, faction, or organization fielding it.
Between Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 3 Cerberus manages to conjure up a fleet out of thin air, managing to construct an entire fleet of cruisers within a few short months. That is completely implausible no matter how deep their pockets are. And that isn't even taking into account the immense cost of keeping those ships fueled or the men it lands on planets supplied. Warfare is perhaps the most expensive activity that humans can engage in. And while indoctrination could perhaps explain where Cerberus got the manpower for its army and navy, where did all the weapons and armor come from? What planet does Cerberus control, where factories are mass producing the equipment to keep that army in the fight? Where were all the troops and naval personnel trained?
a) but they also established Cerberus's plans and ambitions
b. But as a result of ME2, they were given more power because ME2 was their gamble. Its all in the narrative. They swell their ranks with Reaper tech. Also, in this thread was mention of shell companies, not just Cerberus itself.
c) I don't think so. In fact, while Cerberus ships may be stronger than the Alliance counterparts, their fleet strength is small. In fact, Aria's trash fleet does well in a surprise attack against them and the Fifth Fleet crushes the Cerberus fleet at Chronos. Once again, they use their ships more for operations with a single ship or defending stations.
Yeah, but 6 months is a very short amount of time to implement everything they did with the Collector Base. Swelling their ranks with indoctrinated goons is one thing, that I can get behind with the operation they had on Horizon, but outfitting them all is another. I'll admit, it's one of those things we weren't meant to think about, and you're better off not thinking about, but hey, I can't help it; and honestly if something doesn't stand up to a bit of scrutiny it's got a problem.
On c) to be fair it was a surprise attack. Anything short of the Reapers (and including Reapers according to the codex) would be vulnerable when caught off guard. On Chronos, that was an entire Alliance fleet vs. Chronos' basic defence ships IIRC. Again, the Alliance had the element of surprise and the benefit of not actually fighting Cerberus' organised fleet. Still, that Cerberus uses it's ships for surgical strikes makes sense, but that they have numerous cruisers to throw about is pushing it. That said...
Just my two cents, Cerberus did not use their ships until ME3 (or at least close to it during the capture of Omega). The fleet might've been presented as a future Alliance fleet but after the Reapers attacked they simply changed the logo. That's one way I can see them manufacturing all those ships "in secret".
...This is an explanation I can accept. Makes much more sense than them somehow getting away with secretly constructing dozens of warships. Although you kind of have to ignore what the codex says about their spending indicating that they're stockpiling ships, because it implies that they're personally building these ships for themselves, rather than stealing ships the Alliance was unknowingly paying them for.
Okay, I've seriously had to bring this up/point it out about a hundred times now:
TIM is the owner of Cord-Hislop Aerospace company, which is the LARGEST STARSHIP MANUFACTURER IN ALLIANCE SPACE for both civilian AND military ships. They are like 22nd century Boeing. And he has owned this company for nearly thirty years. This is the primary front company for Cerberus (of many front companies) and his primary source of income.
If it would be possible for one man to secretly manufacture a fleet of starships while having decades of foreknowledge about the Reapers, it would be TIM. Hell, it wouldn't even be hard for him to do at all.
Yes, but the SR-2 for example took 2 years, and while it's state of the art it's a smaller vessel. A cruiser would take more time and manpower to put together, let alone 10 cruisers, however may frigates and however many fighters. And CHA has to fulfil its legitimate contracts, run its own business and make its own money. Cerberus can't just dip in and take whatever ships and cash they feel like, and certainly not without being noticed.
Cherry picking? It is you that has the logic flaw, ignoring clear evidence of the story addressing a concern that critics raise but miss. This is ignorance. Face facts here, your criticism does not hold water.
It's not cherry picking. That you think it is (and that you think that I have a logic flaw when I'm pointing out skepticism in terms of content, not logic) shows me that you don't actually have any knowledge on what it actually is.
Clear evidence this is not. It is one line of codex that doesn't make any relative assumptions one way or the other.
It is you making the assumption based off of a minute amount of ambiguous dialogue.
There is no shame in being incorrect here, especially in terms of speculation. Said speculation, on your part, is also not a fact.
...This is an explanation I can accept. Makes much more sense than them somehow getting away with secretly constructing dozens of warships. Although you kind of have to ignore what the codex says about their spending indicating that they're stockpiling ships, because it implies that they're personally building these ships for themselves, rather than stealing ships the Alliance was unknowingly paying them for.
I tried to find the exact codex entry but failed. Can you link it? I think it might be possible to interpret the codex as claiming that they consolidate resources in preparation for the Reaper arrival which should not have arisen suspicion.
...This is an explanation I can accept. Makes much more sense than them somehow getting away with secretly constructing dozens of warships. Although you kind of have to ignore what the codex says about their spending indicating that they're stockpiling ships, because it implies that they're personally building these ships for themselves, rather than stealing ships the Alliance was unknowingly paying them for.
Not only that, but why didn't multiple counts of Grand Theft Warship get remarked upon? I mean, this would be a not inconsiderable percentage of the SA's fleet strength at a time when it's needed most.
For that matter, who stole all these ships to begin with? It would take thousands of people, perhaps tens of thousands, all in position to act virtually simultaneously.
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