324 réponses à ce sujet

[Han Shot First]

In retrospect I think Bioware would have been better off using indoctrinated Batarians or the Collectors for the missions where Cerberus played the role of Reaper cannon fodder. (Tuchanka, Sur'Kesh, Omega, ect) Save Cerberus for more fifth column stuff and the Citadel coup. 

[TheN7Penguin]

Maybe the Reapers helped them.

 

Maybe they recovered the ship wreckages from the Omega 4 relay and repaired them.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

And in ME2, the Alliance and Council are apparently afraid of them. A Cerberus vessel, owned and operated by a known terrorist organization gets cleared to dock at the Citadel. Shepard walks off and no one tells Shepard to return to duty. Instead: "Ah yes, 'Reapers'." and "I can't tell you any more. Not while you're with Cerberus."

 

Anderson. You're an Admiral. Shepard is a Lt. Cmdr. Order her back to duty you idiot.

 

And the Council, you have a f**king fleet. Impound that vessel.

 

But then we wouldn't have had the most fun game in the series where we get to do some pretty nasty things that even make Jack blush.

 

Cerberus: Bringing you tomorrow's problems, today.

[CrutchCricket]

And in ME2, the Alliance and Council are apparently afraid of them. A Cerberus vessel, owned and operated by a known terrorist organization gets cleared to dock at the Citadel. Shepard walks off and no one tells Shepard to return to duty. Instead: "Ah yes, 'Reapers'." and "I can't tell you any more. Not while you're with Cerberus."

 

Anderson. You're an Admiral. Shepard is a Lt. Cmdr. Order her back to duty you idiot.

 

And the Council, you have a f**king fleet. Impound that vessel.

 

But then we wouldn't have had the most fun game in the series where we get to do some pretty nasty things that even make Jack blush.

 

Cerberus: Bringing you tomorrow's problems, today.

That has nothing to do with Cerberus.

 

One does not simply **** with The Shepard.

[God]

It's just Cerberus bashing, and/or baiting/bashing the people who like Cerberus.

 

Not to mention, I can go about why that specific scenario is not the case.

[von uber]

It's just Cerberus bashing, and/or baiting/bashing the person who likes Cerberus.

Possibly.

[CrutchCricket]

It's just Cerberus bashing, and/or baiting/bashing the people who like Cerberus.

 

Not to mention, I can go about why that specific scenario is not the case.

Is it? I could say that the only time Cerberus does anything worthwhile is when Shepard does it for them. Or Miranda.

 

Ok fine, if we're being a stickler for details, we'll throw in the builders of the SR2 and the creators of EDI.

 

But like Citadel points out, every single one of those entities also goes out of control and rebels (from Cerberus' point of view)

[themikefest]

Anderson. You're an Admiral. Shepard is a Lt. Cmdr. Order her back to duty you idiot.

Why would my femshep listen to that clown? Isn't he the one that told Shepard its up to her to stop the reapers? 

[Vortex13]

I can see troop numbers come ME3, and I can see a small armada of ships.

 

What I can't see is the complete omnipresence of them to the point where they're essentially comparable to any organized fleet of a major species. 

 

 

That and their 'space magic' level infiltration and information gathering.

 

I can see Cerberus having sleeper agents in the Alliance, but knowing intricate details of alien military and government secrets? 

 

Stuff like the Turian bomb on Tuchanka, a fact the the Turian military has kept as a closely guarded secret for the past 1,500 years. 

 

The exact location of the Salarian top secret research facility on Sur'kesh.

 

Etc.

 

Unless the aliens of Mass Effect operate on 'Zapp Branigan' levels of incompetence there would be no conceivable way that a human sleeper agent could infiltrate their organizations.

 

I would also highly doubt that Cerberus, a known human supremacist group, would be able to secure informants from those factions either; "Hey, we're firm believers in a 'humanity first' galaxy and will do anything to make sure our species comes out on top. Do you think you could leak us some information that will weaken you species' position for us?"

[CrutchCricket]

Unless the aliens of Mass Effect operate on 'Zapp Branigan' levels of incompetence there would be no conceivable way that a human sleeper agent could infiltrate their organizations.

Actually they do. How else do you explain all the thumb-twiddling and associated failures of ME3 and the series at large? I think even indoctrination can only make you so stupid.

[Vortex13]

Actually they do. How else do you explain all the thumb-twiddling and associated failures of ME3 and the series at large? I think even indoctrination can only make you so stupid.

 

 

That and Cerberus, by and large, being the writer's pet.

 

 

I don't care how super awesome your black ops organization is, getting the upper hand over species that have been doing things since before humanity even crossed the Atlantic ocean in the span of not even 30 years is total plot contrivance.

[CrutchCricket]

I don't care how super awesome your black ops organization is, getting the upper hand over species that have been doing things since before humanity even crossed the Atlantic ocean in the span of not even 30 years is total plot contrivance.

Well I wouldn't agree to this without qualification. There are species that seem to be innately better or at least more predisposed to certain things. For example the turians are more militaristic, the salarians are more covert etc. These would seem to indicate we can't get the upper hand in these fields but I would say humans have a predisposition too- chaos. A common trope in some SF settings is that aliens don't really fight themselves. We do. We fight for random things, be they smart or really, really dumb. And that confuses the aliens. So are we going to be better spies or soldiers than the races dedicated to those concepts for thousands of years? Maybe not. But we could confuse them, which might net the same thing.

 

Of course there's also the argument that "I was doing x advanced thing while you were banging rocks together" isn't as much of a factor as some would have you believe. It doesn't mean they're inherently smarter than us. It doesn't even mean they got to their level of advancement faster than us or faster than we would've. It just means they got there sooner. And in the case of ME where every race is really just uplifted from Prothean Reaper, tech, that distinction means even less.

 

On the other hand Cerberus in ME3 does present a different irony- their whole shtick was protecting humanity from the big bad aliens who want to stomp us. Except they can now match said aliens in firepower?

[Vortex13]

Well I wouldn't agree to this without qualification. There are species that seem to be innately better or at least more predisposed to certain things. For example the turians are more militaristic, the salarians are more covert etc. These would seem to indicate we can't get the upper hand in these fields but I would say humans have a predisposition too- chaos. A common trope in some SF settings is that aliens don't really fight themselves. We do. We fight for random things, be they smart or really, really dumb. And that confuses the aliens. So are we going to be better spies or soldiers than the races dedicated to those concepts for thousands of years? Maybe not. But we could confuse them, which might net the same thing.

 

Of course there's also the argument that "I was doing x advanced thing while you were banging rocks together" isn't as much of a factor as some would have you believe. It doesn't mean they're inherently smarter than us. It doesn't even mean they got to their level of advancement faster than us or faster than we would've. It just means they got there sooner. And in the case of ME where every race is really just uplifted from Prothean Reaper, tech, that distinction means even less.

 

On the other hand Cerberus in ME3 does present a different irony- their whole shtick was protecting humanity from the big bad aliens who want to stomp us. Except they can now match said aliens in firepower?

 

 

 

True, but the Turians and Salarians have thousands of years more worth of experience in intersellar information gathering or military doctrine, they also have centuries worth of infrastructure, connections, and reputation to draw from, the same thing with the Volus banking clans and their economic strengths.

 

I'm not saying that humanity/Cerberus couldn't achieve the same things that the aliens could, but the sheer speed at which they do it is what breaks believability. The first time Cerberus tried to infiltrate or spy on the salarians, they should have had SGT squads all over them before they could even leave their front door. 

 

(Per the wiki)

 

As a salarian information broker once told David Anderson, "Your species has been transmitting data across the extranet for less than a decade. My species has been directing the primary espionage and intelligence operations for the Council for two thousand years."

[txgoldrush]

Bioware fell into the trap that a lot of Science Fiction writers fall into when they delve into military fiction. They completely ignore logistics, and often don't take into account whether the size of the armies or navies they wrote into their work are plausible, based on the population or resources available to the nation, faction, or organization fielding it.

 

Between Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 3 Cerberus manages to conjure up a fleet out of thin air, managing to construct an entire fleet of cruisers within a few short months. That is completely implausible no matter how deep their pockets are. And that isn't even taking into account the immense cost of keeping those ships fueled or the men it lands on planets supplied. Warfare is perhaps the most expensive activity that humans can engage in. And while indoctrination could perhaps explain where Cerberus got the manpower for its army and navy, where did all the weapons and armor come from? What planet does Cerberus control, where factories are mass producing the equipment to keep that army in the fight? Where were all the troops and naval personnel trained?

Read the codex again, they suggest that they were doing it during ME2 and maybe before due to the codex being written at the time of ME2. 

 

And once again, front companies in the military industrial complex. This explains not only their financing, but their logistics. And once again, Cerberus fleet is not large.

 

Detractors act like Cerberus has got some massive fleet when they don't.

 

It's not cherry picking. That you think it is (and that you think that I have a logic flaw when I'm pointing out skepticism in terms of content, not logic) shows me that you don't actually have any knowledge on what it actually is.

 

Clear evidence this is not. It is one line of codex that doesn't make any relative assumptions one way or the other. 

 

It is you making the assumption based off of a minute amount of ambiguous dialogue.

 

There is no shame in being incorrect here, especially in terms of speculation. Said speculation, on your part, is also not a fact. 

But it is.

 

Here we have a story dropping a foreshadowing hint, and you are choosing to ignore it to further your criticism, end of story.

 

It is you that cannot stand to be incorrect.

[CrutchCricket]

True, but the Turians and Salarians have thousands of years more worth of experience in intersellar information gathering or military doctrine, they also have centuries worth of infrastructure, connections, and reputation to draw from, the same thing with the Volus banking clans and their economic strengths.

The question is, are the principles different? Or merely the scale?

 

Given enough time to familiarize themselves with the tech I'm sure a CIA operative today would be able to give an STG one a run for their money.

[Iakus]

True, but the Turians and Salarians have thousands of years more worth of experience in intersellar information gathering or military doctrine, they also have centuries worth of infrastructure, connections, and reputation to draw from, the same thing with the Volus banking clans and their economic strengths.

 

I'm not saying that humanity/Cerberus couldn't achieve the same things that the aliens could, but the sheer speed at which they do it is what breaks believability. The first time Cerberus tried to infiltrate or spy on the salarians, they should have had SGT squads all over them before they could even leave their front door. 

 

(Per the wiki)

 

As a salarian information broker once told David Anderson, "Your species has been transmitting data across the extranet for less than a decade. My species has been directing the primary espionage and intelligence operations for the Council for two thousand years."

 

I now have this rather hilarious image of an STG team pulling a salarian mask off a Cerberus agent, Scooby Doo-style  

 

Read the codex again, they suggest that they were doing it during ME2 and maybe before due to the codex being written at the time of ME2. 

 

And once again, front companies in the military industrial complex. This explains not only their financing, but their logistics. And once again, Cerberus fleet is not large.

 

Detractors act like Cerberus has got some massive fleet when they don't.

 

They have a fleet capable of holding onto Omega, when Aria with all her resources plus that of the three biggest merc groups in the Terminus can't dislodge them.

 

THe defenses of Kronos station are also large enough that Hackett has to move a not inconsiderable part of humanity's strength to engage them.  That's a rather ridiculous amount of power for a single covert agency.

 

Also, the military-industrial complex is primarily busy building up the military and industrial capability of the nation that employs them.  Sure it may be feasible for them to squirrel away some extra assets here and there.  But enough to field a fleet and an army of their own?  Yeah...no.

[txgoldrush]

Yeah, but 6 months is a very short amount of time to implement everything they did with the Collector Base. Swelling their ranks with indoctrinated goons is one thing, that I can get behind with the operation they had on Horizon, but outfitting them all is another. I'll admit, it's one of those things we weren't meant to think about, and you're better off not thinking about, but hey, I can't help it; and honestly if something doesn't stand up to a bit of scrutiny it's got a problem.

 

On c) to be fair it was a surprise attack. Anything short of the Reapers (and including Reapers according to the codex) would be vulnerable when caught off guard. On Chronos, that was an entire Alliance fleet vs. Chronos' basic defence ships IIRC. Again, the Alliance had the element of surprise and the benefit of not actually fighting Cerberus' organised fleet. Still, that Cerberus uses it's ships for surgical strikes makes sense, but that they have numerous cruisers to throw about is pushing it. That said...

 

 

...This is an explanation I can accept. Makes much more sense than them somehow getting away with secretly constructing dozens of warships. Although you kind of have to ignore what the codex says about their spending indicating that they're stockpiling ships, because it implies that they're personally building these ships for themselves, rather than stealing ships the Alliance was unknowingly paying them for.

6 months is plenty of time to outfit indoctrinated goons with weapons stockpiled starting before ME2.

 

And even if Cerberus was not taken by surprise, they would still lose the battle with the Alliance Fifth Fleet. Also the fleet Cerberus has could have also been lost at Omega.

[txgoldrush]

I now have this rather hilarious image of an STG team pulling a salarian mask off a Cerberus agent, Scooby Doo-style  

 

They have a fleet capable of holding onto Omega, when Aria with all her resources plus that of the three biggest merc groups in the Terminus can't dislodge them.

 

THe defenses of Kronos station are also large enough that Hackett has to move a not inconsiderable part of humanity's strength to engage them.  That's a rather ridiculous amount of power for a single covert agency.

 

Also, the military-industrial complex is primarily busy building up the military and industrial capability of the nation that employs them.  Sure it may be feasible for them to squirrel away some extra assets here and there.  But enough to field a fleet and an army of their own?  Yeah...no.

Yes, they have a fleet at Omega, but  that doesn't mean their navy can even start to compare to the Alliance or the other races. Nevermind Cerberus took a lot of Aria's resources which helps maintain that fleet.

 

Hackett uses one fleet at Kronos, but it more about the urgency of the mission anyway, not Cerberus's numbers.

 

Cerberus also has front companies as well, do not forget that.

[TheIdiocyWizard2.0]

On the subject of how Cerberus could gain the knowledge of a bunch of secrets kept by alien governments, the idea of Cerberus planting sleeper agents themselves seems rather ridiculous, at least to me.
Rather, I always assumed that there were indoctrinated agents within the alien governments, feeding Cerberus Intel. I just figured the Reapers were giving Cerberus their Intel in an effort to keep the Galaxy divided.

[Linkenski]

Sure there was a bit of foreshadowing that Cerberus was growing, but the logistics just don't add up, especially not when they weren't addressed in ME3. Everyone just runs with the idea that Cerberus is everywhere without a second thought. They question a lot of things about the nature of the Reapers, but why aren't they questioning how Cerberus grew so fast at any point in the story?

[txgoldrush]

Sure there was a bit of foreshadowing that Cerberus was growing, but the logistics just don't add up, especially not when they weren't addressed in ME3. Everyone just runs with the idea that Cerberus is everywhere without a second thought. They question a lot of things about the nature of the Reapers, but why aren't they questioning how Cerberus grew so fast at any point in the story?

They did all throughout ME3. 

 

How Cerberus grew their ranks through Reaper tech was covered thoroughly throughout the game. 

 

And Omega DLC did explain some of Cerberus logistics.

[Iakus]

The covered how they managed to get warm bodies to fight for them, not how they got thousands and thousands of trained personnel that can build and crew and repair a fleet of ships.

 

He didn't get them on Omega.  That's just raw materials and some test subjects.

 

Hackett used so many forces at the battle at Kronos, he reveled to the Reapers that the galaxy was building up for an assault.  If Cerberus had so many ships that it took that much force to slap them down they had an inordinate amount of forces.

 

I don't care how many front companies Cerberus had, if they could stash away that many ships, accounting in the future is either nonexistent to so incompetent it might as well not exist.

[God]

 

But it is.

 

Here we have a story dropping a foreshadowing hint, and you are choosing to ignore it to further your criticism, end of story.

 

It is you that cannot stand to be incorrect.

 

One ambiguous line in a codex entry (that's it) is not, I repeat not, foreshadowing, and it is especially not good foreshadowing. You have given no other statement based on anything further than speculation. Further, you have promoted said speculation, and your interpretation of said speculation as objective fact.

 

I'm ignoring it because it has no further mention or support in any media beyond what ME3 portrays in an unrealistic light. If you have to try too hard to prove one small facet of ambiguous evidence as objective truth to your entire argument, you're argument is likely very flighty and weak. You're trying too hard for too little.

 

Turning my words onto me do not make my statement any less correct, or any more false. If you can't turn this into a statement of civility, then perhaps I should report you.

[God]

They did all throughout ME3. 

 

How Cerberus grew their ranks through Reaper tech was covered thoroughly throughout the game. 

 

And Omega DLC did explain some of Cerberus logistics.

 

Saying they did, and showing how they did are two different things. You're telling people that something happened. And failing to support it completely.

 

Learn to argue.

[God]

Possibly.

 

And if it were, would it not be rather juvenile and immature to attack someone like that?

 

I mean, I thought we were all adults here. But if that's not the case...