324 réponses à ce sujet

[GreyLycanTrope]

Yet, this is what they actually avoid (until Shepard that is)....a war with Aria. Instead of an all out attack, Cerberus tricked her into defeat. And in fact in Invasion, Aria does do some of their dirty work.

Sadly that doesn't solve the problem cause to quote Aria they still had "big f#cking army" when they went after Omega, and that aspect is the issue at hand.

[txgoldrush]

Believe me I am more than happy to shoot Cerberus goons all day long but that doesn'the mean their presence makes any sense.

Just as a codex entry speculating that they are stockpiling "ships" does not automatically translate to enough full-fledged warships to rival an interstellar fleet

And here you go again, not only missing what the codex actually says, but suggesting that Cerberus can rival a fleet. No just, no.

 

Once again, Cerberus's fleet is no where near as big as other fleets.

[Iakus]

For its role, yes, it is.
 
Also, yet once again, the stockpile of the fleet happens before Shepard is brought back to service in ME2.

It took two years to build a small lightly armed warship crewed by a couple dozen people. AND IT TOOK TWO YEARS!

Cruisers are about ten times bigger. And cerberus had a lot of them. Even if they started this right after the First Contact War they wouldn'the gave the time ever or resources needed. And it would be an obsolete fleet anyway

[Iakus]

And here you go again, not only missing what the codex actually says, but suggesting that Cerberus can rival a fleet. No just, no.
 
Once again, Cerberus's fleet is no where near as big as other fleets.

Even after all the defeats Shepard handed them Hackett still had to send at least an entire fleet to deal with Verve us at Kronos.

Yes just yes,

[GreyLycanTrope]

Next, there is not enough evidence to suggest that the Cerberus navy is heavily impacted by the events of the turians attack on them. Its not in the narrative. The story suggests a financial and intelligence blow more than a fleet one.

The finacial blow is enough. Know what you need to put a large military force together? Money amongst other things.

[txgoldrush]

It took two years to build a small lightly armed warship crewed by a couple dozen people. AND IT TOOK TWO YEARS!

Cruisers are about ten times bigger. And cerberus had a lot of them. Even if they started this right after the First Contact War they wouldn'the gave the time ever or resources needed. And it would be an obsolete fleet anyway

But Normandy is an advanced stealth warship with not only an advanced engine, but an AI. Far more than a standard patrol ship, the cruiser, would be.

 

The finacial blow is enough. Know what you need to put a large military force together? Money amongst other things.

Yet, what if they already had the ships built? Which was what the ME2 codex suggests they already have. Apparently the Turians didn't destroy everything. And once again, Invasion is the rebound of Cerberus where eezo rich Omega fell under their control.

 

Even after all the defeats Shepard handed them Hackett still had to send at least an entire fleet to deal with Verve us at Kronos.

Yes just yes,

And yet you are completely ignoring the vital task of getting info on the Catalyst, which is why he want to make damn sure Shepard succeeded. Fifth Fleet broke the Cerberus lines before Shepard even boarded the station.

[Vazgen]

 

Fighters?  Sure

Corvettes?  Maybe

Frigates?  I'll give them one, just be generous

Q-Ships?  Sure, sounds right up their alley.

 

But cruisers?  Nuh-uh.

There are no corvettes or Q-ships in Mass Effect. There are fighters and interceptors, frigates, cruisers and dreadnoughts. Also carriers. Link

 

Regarding the crew size, there may be different variations of cruisers (heavy or light). Codex entry on Rise of the Alliance when importing a save with saved Council mentions 8 Alliance cruisers and "their 2400 crew" lost in the Battle of a Citadel which puts the crew side of a cruiser to 300. In ME1 Rear Admiral Mikhailovich states that for the price of the Normandy the Alliance could have got a heavy cruiser. In Mass Effect: Ascension it is mentioned that "in the Alliance, a medium-sized cruiser would have a crew of 70 or 80 at the most". So either Drew doesn't know his own lore or there are multiple types of cruisers with vastly disparate crew sizes. 

About the people piloting those ships, why is there a need for all the crew to be Cerberus agents? Top level officers would be enough. The crew is military, they'll follow orders.

About Cerberus armies, how many people did Sanctuary process? There is a log mentioning 60% of adults sent for integration. The security cam footage and an audio log indicate constant influx of refugees. There are people talking about the Sanctuary and ads about it on the Citadel right after Menae mission. Cerberus also captures civilians on Eden Prime and Benning. If they, say, process 1000 people in a week (which is quite lower from actual numbers IMO) they'll still have 600 people, enough to outfit two heavy cruisers. 

As for the damage turians did:

"However, despite the damage done, Cerberus still survived. The Illusive Man’s network of followers was far larger than the Alliance could even imagine. There were other research bases and other training facilities located in systems both inside and outside of Council space. The network of scattered agent cells operating independently across the galaxy was still intact."

 

Also, Hackett was willing to give Cerberus a pass if they did something good for the galaxy. His quote from Arrival:

"I don't like Cerberus and the way they do things, but they brought you back to life and they're actually doing something about the state of the galaxy"

So the Alliance probably knew about them stockpiling ships but was fed information that this is simply preparation for the Reaper arrival.

[themikefest]

Corvettes?  Maybe

Corvette? That would be cool seeing a Corvette in space. 

Spoiler

[GreyLycanTrope]

Yet, what if they already had the ships built? Which was what the ME2 codex suggests they already have. Apparently the Turians didn't destroy everything. And once again, Invasion is the rebound of Cerberus where eezo rich Omega fell under their control.

Bit of a difference between "shifting towards stockpiling" and managed to amass an armada. I'm willing to accept they probably had a fair amount of smaller ships by that point. The larger ones which we see prominently in ME3 not so much.

[God]

First off, I can care less about anyone who is tired of me. Second, you are trying to discredit my argument by ignoring it or whitewashing. Third, even if you are right and it was just speculation, you would still be wrong overall, because speculation can still be foreshadowing.

 

And no, its proper sentence structure, "with" can be a subordinate conjunction.

 

And last, my typos are not part of this argument, which is your interpretation of a sentence.

 

Of course. Attitude be damned right?

 

I'm not ignoring it, I've already debunked it to death at this point. And whitewashing? WTF? How am I whitewashing it?

 

It is just speculation. And while speculation may indeed be foreshadowing, that does not mean that all speculation is always foreshadowing. This particularly holds for this case.

 

Ah, a grammatical ****** fight. See, you took the bait, and were debunked earlier by someone else. You have a contrarian position.

[von uber]

To argue that cerberus is realistic in me3 takes suspension of disbelief so far that it is never finding it's way home.
But then the entirety of the trilogy requires it; it just reaches a point in me3 where it becomestoo obvious.

[Display Name Owner]

And here you go again, not only missing what the codex actually says, but suggesting that Cerberus can rival a fleet. No just, no.

 

Once again, Cerberus's fleet is no where near as big as other fleets.

 

I think people are meaning that Cerberus' navy can rival one Alliance fleet, not their entire armada. At least that's what I mean. No one's saying they could take on the entire Alliance in a non-Reaper setting, although it's also worth pointing out that similarly to the Alliance, Cerberus' ships are spread out carrying out multiple operations, so it's not like their full power is ever seen at once. Which in itself is an indication of how overpowered Cerberus is. They're able to have enough ships surrounding Omega to hold the whole station hostage, whilst causing trouble above Tuchanka, invading that station Jack was at (I forget the name right now), maintaining a defence of Chronos, etc etc. That number of ships is not possible for a private organisation to build secretly in under 3 years, not with all the other (also implausible) things Cerberus spends its time and resources doing.

[General TSAR]

"With its recent shift to stockpiling ships, agents, and weapons, counterterror experts speculate Cerberus may have changed leadership."

 

Remember your lessons on independent and dependent clauses and the elements of a complete sentence.

 

In any case, Cerberus should not have had that large a fleet. Military warship construction is carefully tracked by intelligence agencies, particularly under the terms of the Treaty of Firaxen.

 

Building a cruiser is not like building a freighter. 

 

The only way I can see Cerberus being able to hide ship construction is if they reconditioned ships that were decommissioned from service. In which case said ships would not be cutting edge hulls. And it's certainly not something that can be done in six months. Or even two years and six months.

x2 on all this.

 

Also, where in the blue hell did Cerberus get the Elbrus from? It's a damn Dreadnought. No way they could have hidden its existence and the existence of its other capital ships in the wake of the Turian offensive.

 

This convoluted problem could have easily been solved by having an internal dispute in the Alliance which leads to a rebellion and TIM steps in and convinces the rebel side to join up with him, hell you can even introduce Oleg Petrovsky as the rebellion leader.

 

BAM, the existence of the Grand Cerberus Army and Fleet makes more sense.

[Iakus]

 

 

 

There are no corvettes or Q-ships in Mass Effect. There are fighters and interceptors, frigates, cruisers and dreadnoughts. Also carriers. Link

 

Regarding the crew size, there may be different variations of cruisers (heavy or light). Codex entry on Rise of the Alliance when importing a save with saved Council mentions 8 Alliance cruisers and "their 2400 crew" lost in the Battle of a Citadel which puts the crew side of a cruiser to 300. In ME1 Rear Admiral Mikhailovich states that for the price of the Normandy the Alliance could have got a heavy cruiser. In Mass Effect: Ascension it is mentioned that "in the Alliance, a medium-sized cruiser would have a crew of 70 or 80 at the most". So either Drew doesn't know his own lore or there are multiple types of cruisers with vastly disparate crew sizes. 

About the people piloting those ships, why is there a need for all the crew to be Cerberus agents? Top level officers would be enough. The crew is military, they'll follow orders.

About Cerberus armies, how many people did Sanctuary process? There is a log mentioning 60% of adults sent for integration. The security cam footage and an audio log indicate constant influx of refugees. There are people talking about the Sanctuary and ads about it on the Citadel right after Menae mission. Cerberus also captures civilians on Eden Prime and Benning. If they, say, process 1000 people in a week (which is quite lower from actual numbers IMO) they'll still have 600 people, enough to outfit two heavy cruisers. 

As for the damage turians did:

"However, despite the damage done, Cerberus still survived. The Illusive Man’s network of followers was far larger than the Alliance could even imagine. There were other research bases and other training facilities located in systems both inside and outside of Council space. The network of scattered agent cells operating independently across the galaxy was still intact."

 

Also, Hackett was willing to give Cerberus a pass if they did something good for the galaxy. His quote from Arrival:

"I don't like Cerberus and the way they do things, but they brought you back to life and they're actually doing something about the state of the galaxy"

So the Alliance probably knew about them stockpiling ships but was fed information that this is simply preparation for the Reaper arrival.

 

There actually are corvettes in the Mass Effect Universe:

 

http://masseffect.wi.../wiki/Starships

 

Corvettes are small, ten-man craft used to perform combat and survey missions.

 

And Q-Ships would be comparatively speaking, pretty easy to make:  it's just a civilian ship with armaments hidden on them.  

 

Even a light cruiser would be significantly larger than a frigate.  And still doesn't address how they have such a powerful military force, as it would mean they would need that much more in the way of assets to compensate for having lighter ships.

 

And given how big a military force Cerberus has, they must have been building up before Sanctuary was in place

[Display Name Owner]

6 months is plenty of time to outfit indoctrinated goons with weapons stockpiled starting before ME2.

 

And even if Cerberus was not taken by surprise, they would still lose the battle with the Alliance Fifth Fleet. Also the fleet Cerberus has could have also been lost at Omega.

 

What I'm saying is that the claim (Bioware's claim, not yours) that they were stockpiling all the stuff they had in ME3 in those 2 years doesn't even make sense. Ignoring the fleet for a sec, Cerberus had no way of knowing they'd have the inodctrigoons to put all that armour and weaponry on before ME2. And since the armour is obviously of their own design, the logical follow-through is that they designed, tested and manufactured several hundred suits of armour in under 6 months. Even if we say they started building up the armoury over 2 years ago "because they were being prepared" it's a massive leap to believe that they built hundreds of suits of armour, bought and customised hundreds of guns, constructed dozens of warships ranging from fighters to gigantic cruisers, whilst also researching and spying and all that - in two years. Secretly, and on a relatively limited budget. And before they had any means of actually getting people to operate all this stuff.

[General TSAR]

What I'm saying is that the claim (Bioware's claim, not yours) that they were stockpiling all the stuff they had in ME3 in those 2 years doesn't even make sense. Ignoring the fleet for a sec, Cerberus had no way of knowing they'd have the inodctrigoons to put all that armour and weaponry on before ME2. And since the armour is obviously of their own design, the logical follow-through is that they designed, tested and manufactured several hundred suits of armour in under 6 months. Even if we say they started building up the armoury over 2 years ago "because they were being prepared" it's a massive leap to believe that they built hundreds of suits of armour, bought and customised hundreds of guns, constructed dozens of warships ranging from fighters to gigantic cruisers, whilst also researching and spying and all that - in two years. Secretly, and on a relatively limited budget. 

All the while being hounded by the Turians.

[Display Name Owner]

All the while being hounded by the Turians.

 

Yeah. Although honestly I'm inclined to just forget that even happened. I mean, it doesn't serve any purpose to the plot to even have Cerberus taken down a notch by side characters. Not to justify the handwave, if it wasn't going to be honoured then what was the sense in even including it in the canon?

[God]

To argue that cerberus is realistic in me3 takes suspension of disbelief so far that it is never finding it's way home.
But then the entirety of the trilogy requires it; it just reaches a point in me3 where it becomestoo obvious.

 

Despite our differing views on Cerberus, this is indeed the case.

[themikefest]

There actually are corvettes in the Mass Effect Universe:

 

http://masseffect.wi.../wiki/Starships

 

Corvettes are small, ten-man craft used to perform combat and survey missions.

 

Interesting there is no image of what they look like. 

 

Whatever it looks like, I would say it doesn't look as good as the Corvette I posted above

[God]

x2 on all this.

 

Also, where in the blue hell did Cerberus get the Elbrus from? It's a damn Dreadnought. No way they could have hidden its existence and the existence of its other capital ships in the wake of the Turian offensive.

 

This convoluted problem could have easily been solved by having an internal dispute in the Alliance which leads to a rebellion and TIM steps in and convinces the rebel side to join up with him, hell you can even introduce Oleg Petrovsky as the rebellion leader.

 

BAM, the existence of the Grand Cerberus Army and Fleet makes more sense.

 

I can tell you 

 

Interesting there is no image of what they look like. 

 

Whatever it looks like, I would say it doesn't look as good as the Corvette I posted above

 

It looks better. Corvettes are overrated.

 

Now this is a ride. 

 

[themikefest]

If Zaeed  dies in ME3 or is not recruited or killed in ME2, Shepard can only choose between the Volus bombing fleet or warn the the Turians about Cerberus attacking one of their colonie's, Aephus.

 

If Shepard chooses the volus fleet, Cerberus will attack Aephus. The 6th fleet of the Turians reclaim the planet, but lose several ships. How many ships did Cerberus have for that attack and to be able to destroy several Turian ships?

 

 

Just before attacking Chronos, Shepard will say to Joker that Cerberus ships have some upgrades that out class Alliance ships. This dialogue only happens if the player chooses the bottom right dialogue.  What's surprising is that no war assets is lost for fighting Cerberus. Whatever.

[General TSAR]

I can tell you 

Please do so, the thought of Cerberus having a dreadnought is making my teeth itch.

[KaiserShep]

It looks better. Corvettes are overrated.

 

Now this is a ride. 

 

Eh, that's provided that the $300K gulf standing between the two and the shaky value is of no concern.

 

For that much, I'd rather just go ahead and get an Audi R8 and use the rest to buy liquor and candy. It would look better than either parked in front of everything.

[Vazgen]

Funny how the only Cerberus ships shown at Cronos were fighters. 

The ships Cortez so skillfully avoids in the opening cutscene are Cerberus cruisers. You can tell by their glorious logo strapped on them and color scheme

Spoiler

 

 

There actually are corvettes in the Mass Effect Universe:

 

http://masseffect.wi.../wiki/Starships

 

Corvettes are small, ten-man craft used to perform combat and survey missions.

 

And Q-Ships would be comparatively speaking, pretty easy to make:  it's just a civilian ship with armaments hidden on them.  

 

Even a light cruiser would be significantly larger than a frigate.  And still doesn't address how they have such a powerful military force, as it would mean they would need that much more in the way of assets to compensate for having lighter ships.

 

And given how big a military force Cerberus has, they must have been building up before Sanctuary was in place

 

I really have no idea where that wiki page got information on corvette ships. There is no mention of those neither in the codex nor in the books (I just checked). Maybe comics? But I don't remember anything of a sort in those... There is no mention of corvette ships in the known starships page either.

 

I don't think those would work in ME universe with all the advanced scanners, weaponry, and limitations of FTL technology not allowing for collisions at FTL speeds.

 

They spent two years building the Normandy because of a shackled AI, stealth system and size complications (SR2 is two times larger than SR1 which can cause all sorts of problems). And cruisers are presented in the codex as the "poor bloody infantry" of most fleets. I don't think that ships falling under such classification are that hard to manufacture.

 

They did build up in advance. Ascension mentions that: There were other research bases and other training facilities located in systems both inside and outside of Council space. There were also the bases Shepard encountered in ME1 (which I don't think were the only ones Cerberus had).

[o Ventus]

Eh, that's provided that the $300K gulf standing between the two and the shaky value is of no concern.

 

For that much, I'd rather just go ahead and get an Audi R8 and use the rest to buy liquor and candy.

Yeah, the Lexus LFA is a gorgeous car, but I'm not entirely sold on how it drives.

 

If I were to go for any high-end car like that, I'd go for an R8 like you said, or a Pagani (either a Zonda or a Huayra) if I had more money. Or a Noble M600, but those scare me, with the total lack of electronic driving assists (no ABS, no power steering, etc).