187 réponses à ce sujet

[The Hierophant]

Haven't you seen me have arguments with people on this forum? lol

You just quoted almost everything you shouldn't insult people for.

Insult people's stupid opinions? Fine. Insult them for their supposedly deplorable actions? Great. Insult their character/person for the criteria you mentioned? Crossed a line.

That includes transgender issues, which is the entire point of this thread.

Reread my op, and Tevintersupremacist's response to Panda's quoted post. He took issue with the tone of Panda's post since it seemed like it considered assault as a socially acceptable response to being insulted. My post only indicated the obvious which is that assault is illegal, and not socially acceptable in my country.

Telling someone they should fear insulting people because they might be assaulted only treats violence as an acceptable response, or fargone conclusion to the situation when it's not.

[leaguer of one]

Reread my op, and Tevintersupremacist's response to Panda's quoted post. He took issue with the tone of Panda's post since it seemed like it considered assault as a socially acceptable response to being insulted. My post only indicated the obvious which is that assault is illegal, and not socially acceptable in my country.

Telling someone they should fear insulting people because they might be assaulted only treats violence as some acceptable response, or fargone conclusion to the situation when it's not.

he did not say to fear it. He said to avoid it. AVOID=/=FEAR.

[Lebanese Dude]

Reread my op, and Tevintersupremacist's response to Panda's quoted post. He took issue with the tone of Panda's post since it seemed like it considered assault as a socially acceptable response to being insulted. My post only indicated the obvious which is that assault is illegal, and not socially acceptable in my country.
Telling someone they should fear insulting people because they might be assaulted only treats violence as an acceptable response, or fargone conclusion to the situation when it's not.

It's not an acceptable response, but it's going to happen, because we're all human beings with feelings.

You're being way too... mechanical. People aren't robots.

Not provoking people for fear of being attacked is primal human behavior It's...obvious. People aren't perfect.

I repeat, it's best not to insult anyone to begin with (for the mentioned criteria). Way more practical.

[The Hierophant]

Alright i get you. I thought you were trying to justify the fear of threats of violence.

[Panda]

So threatening to punch someone over words they spoke with their own lips ,exercising their bodily autonomy is fine under your "social norms" but speaking in a why that can offend someone is not?

This is what your social norms dictate? And you don't just acknowledge that, you espouse it? I mean, I could be wrong, I might have misinterpreted your tone -internet does that, my apologies if that's the case- ,do you actually consider that a healthy mindset?

 

Don't know what country Panda's from, but here In the US if you threaten to or punch someone over an insult you'll most likely face legal consequences.

 

Bodily autonomy is not talking whatever like mouth isn't connected your brain. That's not freedom either.

 

If you insult people, they usually respond. You can't really go yelling offensive stuff around city to strangers without getting any consequences. Social norms should be enough to stop you, but if they aren't fear of consequences and response usually is, was the response getting punched, getting someone crying, getting some insults back or being labeled as dick. Some responses might not be within law, but it's not like they are completely unexcepted.

 

Of cource realisation that you are breaking social boundaries and being sexist, racist, transphobic etc. is enough for majority of humans to swallow their insults and hate towards minorities, but sadly not for everyone

[KaiserShep]

Don't know what country Panda's from, but here In the US if you threaten to or punch someone over an insult you'll most likely face legal consequences.

 

Like all things, it really depends on the situation. Obviously in a more professional or at least public setting is a no-no or at least the most trouble, but there are times when some fools are pretty much asking to be threatened with a punch, or simply punched outright lol

[The Hierophant]

Bodily autonomy is not talking whatever like mouth isn't connected your brain. That's not freedom either.

If you insult people, they usually respond. You can't really go yelling offensive stuff around city to strangers without getting any consequences. Social norms should be enough to stop you, but if they aren't fear of consequences and response usually is, was the response getting punched, getting someone crying, getting some insults back or being labeled as dick. Some responses might not be within law, but it's not like they are completely unexcepted.

Of cource realisation that you are breaking social boundaries and being sexist, racist, transphobic etc. is enough for majority of humans to swallow their insults and hate towards minorities, but sadly not for everyone

This is better. Thanks for the clarification.

[Fredward]

This is how I see it: Bioware's representation is both necessary and appreciated. Transgender individuals are still largely invisible in mainstream media, it's ballsy to include them in the game. What's more is that they exist, they've existed for millennia in our world so having them exist in THEdas is about as  much pandering as including women, black people or homosexuals.

 

BUT!

 

At the same time I can see objections from some SIJW that there's no way to object to a way of life. It's taking baggage from our world and planting it in DA. It wouldn't make sense for someone to say Krem is '****** freak' since that is also transplanting real world attitudes, but a character refusing to use Krem's preferred gender pronoun? Or saying that they don't (want) to understand his situation? Same with Dorian, a noble character telling him that he's selfish and that his primary duty must be to his family? Such points of view would  have been consistent with the world.

 

Bioware has taken a political stance that straddles two worlds, it's one the SJW part of me can appreciate. Even if the in-world-consistency part of me is objecting.

[AlanC9]

It's not an acceptable response, but it's going to happen, because we're all human beings with feelings.

You're being way too... mechanical. People aren't robots.

Not provoking people for fear of being attacked is primal human behavior It's...obvious. People aren't perfect.

I repeat, it's best not to insult anyone to begin with (for the mentioned criteria). Way more practical.

OK, but I'm not sure where that leaves us. I'm certain that you're not proposing that we all decide to never give anyone else any possible offense whatsoever. So.. where is the line to be drawn?

[KaiserShep]

This is how I see it: Bioware's representation is both necessary and appreciated. Transgender individuals are still largely invisible in mainstream media, it's ballsy to include them in the game. What's more is that they exist, they've existed for millennia in our world so having them exist in THEdas is about as  much pandering as including women, black people or homosexuals.

 

BUT!

 

At the same time I can see objections from some SIJW that there's no way to object to a way of life. It's taking baggage from our world and planting it in DA. It wouldn't make sense for someone to say Krem is '****** freak' since that is also transplanting real world attitudes, but a character refusing to use Krem's preferred gender pronoun? Or saying that they don't (want) to understand his situation? Same with Dorian, a noble character telling him that he's selfish and that his primary duty must be to his family? Such points of view would  have been consistent with the world.

 

Bioware has taken a political stance that straddles two worlds, it's one the SJW part of me can appreciate. Even if the in-world-consistency part of me is objecting.

I'm curious as to how BioWare would have written negative responses to the issues presented in the game. Obviously, the more hateful stuff would be left out, for the same reason why we can't do certain things to people in any of these games, but if I wanted to build a dickquisitor that didn't give a toss about the feelings of the puny peasants scurrying below him/her, I wonder how they'd do it.

[Lebanese Dude]

OK, but I'm not sure where that leaves us. I'm certain that you're not proposing that we all decide to never give anyone else any possible offense whatsoever. So.. where is the line to be drawn?

 

Already said it.

 

 

Insult people's stupid opinions? Fine. Insult them for their supposedly deplorable actions? Great. Insult their character/person for the criteria you mentioned? Crossed a line.

 

 

Criteria that were mentioned:

 

racist, anti LGBT, anti religious, socioeconomic, intelligence, or appearance related comments 

 

 

There's a few more like disability status, physical and mental health, etc...

 

---

 

You see me insulting people's stupid opinions all the time here. I just never attack the person directly.

[TevinterSupremacist]

Bodily autonomy is not talking whatever like mouth isn't connected your brain.

Regardless of what social consequences you might -rightfully- face afterwards, speaking whatever you want does fall under your bodily autonomy. It does happen using solely your own body without violating another person's bodily autonomy.

But yes, social consequences for the content of speech you used are to be expected. And as long as the consequences don't violate your own bodily autonomy they're fine too.

The question is if there ought to be a special case for direct threats of physical violence and if such speech -be it a response to other speech or a starting point in a conversation- is acceptable.

[BSpud]

I wonder how luxurious and carefree one's life has to be to think that "political correctness" is one of the world's greatest ills.

[leaguer of one]

I wonder how luxurious and carefree one's life has to be to think that "political correctness" is one of the world's greatest ills.

It being forced by a third party, like an over cautioned company, can be annoying.

[Panda]

Regardless of what social consequences you might -rightfully- face afterwards, speaking whatever you want does fall under your bodily autonomy. It does happen using solely your own body without violating another person's bodily autonomy.

But yes, social consequences for the content of speech you used are to be expected. And as long as the consequences don't violate your own bodily autonomy they're fine too.

The question is if there ought to be a special case for direct threats of physical violence and if such speech -be it a response to other speech or a starting point in a conversation- is acceptable.

 

People don't only have bodily autonomy though, they have freedom to pursue happiness without other people restricting it and talking **** about minorities often comes close of restricting their freedom.

[The Hierophant]

 

 

Already said it.

 

 

 

Criteria that were mentioned:

 

 

 

There's a few more like disability status, physical and mental health, etc...

 

---

 

You see me insulting people's stupid opinions all the time here. I just never attack the person directly.

That doesn't mean the poster wasn't personally offended with your belittlement of their views. While i agree that a bigot getting their ass kicked is a possibility, and natural consequence for mouthing off at someone, i still stand by my previous statement about going through life not offending anyone being a near impossibility, because people will view anything as a slight/offence.If you take into account all the cultures, and religions on this planet the criteria for offending people is vast. Like wearing the wrong color in the wrong neighborhood, a child looking at a grownup in the eyes when being spoken to, choice clothing, looking away when speaking to someone, drawing religious icons, greeting a person or handing out items with your left hand, language fluency or the pitch, and tone of your voice. The list just goes on. Aside from the obvious and most important no no's of our society like racism, anti lgbt, anti disabiliy, anti religion and sexism, your suggestion about not offending people is too vague.

 

Plus i just found out that clapping is considered enabling, and that me refering to Hillary Clinton by her first name only is sexist. (have to differentiate between her and Bill) 

[agonis]

Oh dear lord.

 

A game making you behave as if you were actually a tolerant human being. Atrocity! The pain!

 

Get over it.

 

No one forces you to be one in real life.

[PearsAndCherries]

Dang I completely forgot about Maury. I'll probably have some catching up to do now 

[Vanth]

While I respect the right of individuals to live their lives in whatever way they want, I don't have to approve of their choices. And I don't want to have a political agenda forced on me while playing a computer game. 

[Paul E Dangerously]

I fail to see how the fourth wall was shattered in any way. No need to make everything dramatic, although that's a pretty common theme around here I suppose.

 

You sit down to talk to IB's friends after you instigate that meeting. You have to ask IB to meet his friends. When Krem comes up, you can very easily move on to the next conversation, ignoring the whole dialogue entirely. 

 

Should you investigate and press the issue and talk to Krem, either because of genuine curiosity or the casual obsession with clicking all investigate options when available, you get a story from Krem and IB.

 

Should you ask stupid questions regarding Krem, you naturally get berated by those who like the guy. Is it somehow out of character for IB to be defensive of his group? All of his quests involve an angle of the protective leader.

 

I mean... if you ask an elf why they're not being a servant somewhere, wouldn't that make the elf's friends berate you as well?

 

But of course, if it's a topic related to transgender issues, it's breaking the fourth wall cause obviously transgenders don't exist on Thedas. That it's handled carefully is a result of the careful depiction of underprivileged minorities in media. 

 

---

 

I sincerely hope that they make Maevaris Tilani a party member in the next game, if only to see how people would react to an actual full-time transgender character in the game. The meltdowns.

 

I guess it's just a bit of YMMV, but that conversation for me felt like the developers just took a time out and stuck a PSA in the game. It's hard to buy a lot of it coming from the characters, because it's more like the writers putting their imprint directly on the world.

 

Again, I've got no problem with the character. Krem's one of my favorite of the lot. He's snarky and got his head screwed on straight, and a rag-tag group like the Bull's Chargers wouldn't work without him.

 

It's just that I feel when Bioware handles something like gender issues and/or sexuality, they lean too heavily on the "tell" end of "show, don't tell" and do things in ways it really makes me wonder if the characters involved would talk about things in a fashion that feels like 2015 Earth and not 9:41 DA Thedas.

[Lebanese Dude]

I guess it's just a bit of YMMV, but that conversation for me felt like the developers just took a time out and stuck a PSA in the game. It's hard to buy a lot of it coming from the characters, because it's more like the writers putting their imprint directly on the world.

 

Again, I've got no problem with the character. Krem's one of my favorite of the lot. He's snarky and got his head screwed on straight, and a rag-tag group like the Bull's Chargers wouldn't work without him.

 

It's just that I feel when Bioware handles something like gender issues and/or sexuality, they lean too heavily on the "tell" end of "show, don't tell" and do things in ways it really makes me wonder if the characters involved would talk about things in a fashion that feels like 2015 Earth and not 9:41 DA Thedas.

 

I can see where you're coming from.

 

The thing is, this is new territory we're talking about. Transgender (and more broadly, LGBT) depictions in video games are still in their infancy, and given how sensitive these topics are in society, they need to be handled in a carefully constructed manner.

 

Showing them in a negative light would be bad, given that they are underprivileged minorities that actually exist in real life.

 

It's not like Krem had an arc revolving around his trans status. It was an optional dialogue in an optional conversation instigated by the character. That it was handled with thinly veiled positive bias is expected.

It was completely in-character too. Had it been a random NPC that we picked up on the road, I'd have thought IB's defense would have been a little out of place. We're talking about his second in command here. Was it intentional? Perhaps, but it's not out of character.

 

I mean...they could have just avoided discussing it altogether, but one has to ask ...why? There's no harm in it, and it can be a memorable moment. Considering the amount of media coverage this has received, and the consequent positive reception, I'd say it was a resounding success in humanizing LGBT characters (Dorian, Josephine, IB, and Sera included).

 

Someone has to take the first step, and I'm happy that BioWare is doing that. 

 

Perhaps when these depictions become more or less commonplace, developers will be able to be more liberal in how they approach these topics.

 

I'm personally hoping for Maevaris as a companion or major NPC in the next game. It would be interesting to see how they handle it.

[The Hierophant]

The Paul's and Dude's posts were good. Thread needed it.

@Realmzmaster you know what they say about the best of intentions, you have my condolences. My fault for going ot.

@Lebanese Dude, good points even though i may not fully agree with you.

Looking back on Krem's inclusion it seems like the writers are making way for Maevaris' intro as the first transgendered companion. She's a vanilla character but decent, hopefully they don't screw up with shoddy writing, if a sequel is ever green lit.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I think he is being serious. For me...people from both side of that fence are painfully annoying...

 

One side is - "OMG gay people everywhere, they gonna make my kids gay and me, they want to make me gay too"

 

And other side is - " Straight white males are ruining the world for everyone, they are racist, misogynistic and homophobic monsters and we need to end their patriarchal system."

 

To be honest, if i could put you all people on a rocket and launch you to the freaking sun, because i cant play, read or watch anything without you guys hijacking it. 

 

This. Remember when games was just a form of entertainment just to have fun, not a tool for political purposes or for social justice or anything ? 

 

No offense but some things should be done in a proper way. Trying to "educate" or "raise awareness" of your players using games is to me a foolish idea. If you want to get people to be aware of things, to educate them, you get people who have been studying and researching and has had hands on experience with the subject matter to do it. You do not get some journalist or a group of developers who feel they know stuff to do it.

 

What Bioware is doing is a lot like what Varric tried to do in Cole's personal quest.

 

Here we have surface dwarf who spends his time writing fictional novels and doing business try to tell us how to deal with a Fade spirit. Varric has not studied the Fade, he has not studied Fade spirits, he has little to understanding of them and yet he somehow thinks he is qualified to offer advice regarding a troubled Fade spirit who manifested itself into Thedas. Sure he can say what he wants to say or what he feels he should say but we can either ignore his opinions or dismiss his opinions on the matter for his lack of knowledge on it.

 

Similarly, what do Bioware, a group of developers, know of transsexuals and transgenders ? Do Bioware developers devote their time to studying transpeople, understanding them and learning about them ? Or do Bioware developers just write what they feel is right ? Did they consult anyone from places such as John Hopkins Hospital which is well known for conducting research about transpeople and trans surgeries ? If so, I do not recall a mention of them in the credits. 

 

So let us compare what a Canadian game developer has to say versus experts in the field ? 

 

Bioware :- We should just accept them because feels. Trying to ask questions about them or to understand them or to make politically incorrect statements is somehow stupid. 

 

Actual experts :- http://www.jhunewsle...signment-76004/ , http://www.wsj.com/a...tion-1402615120 , http://cnsnews.com/n...rder-sex-change

 

So what we have are two different tale. Firstly, there is a difference between transsexuals and transgenders. From studies, transsexuals are healthy people while transgenders have lots of problems and some have classified them as a mental disorder. The situation has gotten so bad that a premier university hospital that used to offer sex change surgeries are no longer doing so due to the adverse effects.

 

Did Bioware attempt to enlighten its audience that there is a difference between transsexuals and transgenders ? Did they try to educated people on the problems being a transgender could cause, with or without social ostracization ? 

 

Nope. Yet they see fit to write dialogues calling the Inquisitor stupid for asking questions about Krem the wrong way. 

 

This is why I am firmly against developers and artists trying to "educate" or "enlighten" or "raise awareness" or "inspire" people.

They themselves are not well acquainted with the subject matter but somehow feel that they can just say or draw or program what they feel like without expecting any backlash. 

 

If people want to be aware or know more or be educated on something, they can search for books, journals, videos, articles that are written by people who actually research and study the subject matter. 

[TevinterSupremacist]

People don't only have bodily autonomy though, they have freedom to pursue happiness without other people restricting it and talking **** about minorities often comes close of restricting their freedom.

People have freedom to pursue happiness, as long as said pursuit doesn't violate people's rights or necessitates them to not exercise their rights. If I needed to punch you to feel happy, my right to pursue happiness is invalid because it'd require me to violate one of your rights. If you need people to not exercise their bodily autonomy to feel happy, your pursuit of happiness is equally invalid.

[Vanth]

As a matter of interest, with no judgement or particular opinion implied, is it legal for a surgeon to remove healthy tissue (other than cosmetically) in any other cases? For example, if a patient has an extreme dislike of their perfectly normal and functional left arm (which can happen) would it be legal (or ethical) for a surgeon to remove it?