186 réponses à ce sujet

[Lethaya]

I love Flemeth myself. I don't feel she dragged on at all, I mean, I was hoping she'd make an appearance in DA:I and when she finally did, I lost my mind, so. I thought it was great? XD It didn't feel like she was forced in there. She's kind of an important figure, after all, and her daughter was directly involved in the main plot, as was Mythal herself lore wise, so?

 

Should she appear in DA4, I won't be disappointed or annoyed by it, I think. Although that all depends on circumstance, doesn't it?

 

That said, if she's gone for good, that's fine too. She had a good arc if this was meant to be the end of it, and it'd be interesting to see her torch passed on to Morrigan.

 

How do you know that?  Point to something in game that absolutely proves that?  And by in game, I mean what is experienced while playing the game.  You may think it unfair of me to restrict what I will accept as proof to that, but that's how it is.  Fragments of notes left behind on an installation disc?  Big whoop.  How many things were changed along the development of the game?  Did the scour every bit of that stuff from the data one can mine?  

 

It is blindingly clear to me from the conversation, Mythal apologizing, the animations themselves, etc that Mythal took over Solas.

 

It could go wither way, really. Blindingly clear is overstating it, no? The animations show Solas cradling Flemeth, Flemeth making pained expressions, and Flemeth's ruined form being lowered to the ground. Her apology, to me, was meant as an expression of sorrow over the circumstances they're involved in, not for what she was about to do. If a friend of mine tells me about their troubles and I say I'm sorry about it, I'm not taking personal responsibility or making threats.

 

Personally I'm not gonna dismiss the dev notes. Does that mean Flemythal can't come back? Nope. In fact, it'd mean they could both technically make a return, Flemythal and Solas. And why kill off Solas after such a huge reveal? Plus, how would you explain Solas's Cole-message deal post ending?

[SwobyJ]

The cup/chalice has to deal with the minor arcana of the Tarot cards.

Cory is a dead ringer for the five of cups, as shown by the five hands in his card... "This card often carries the meaning of emotional dejection, disappointment and sorrow over past events. There may be a tendency to "cry over spilt milk". It can also represent the failure to see the good in a given situation. Although the figure represented on the card has lost three of his cups, two still stand, yet he fails to appreciate what he has left."

Vivienne is most likely the Queen of Cups? "The card depicts a mature woman of fair-complexion and golden hair who holds a lidded cup. She is described as a model of a loving virtue, one who is purer of heart than most, a loving mother and a loyal friend. The inverted card may warn the querent of a false lover or a deceitful friend or companion who pretends to be of a pure heart but is treacherous and manipulative." Both the normal and the reverse can apply to her character.

 

As for a matter slight more on topic, I can see the Sola=Shartan being more possible than the Flemeth/Mythal=Andraste. Both are somewhat possible, but I can totally see Solas sticking his "God of Rebellion" nose into Andraste's revolt against Tevinter, especially with the concern for the elves, since he possibly feels responsible for what happened to them after he sealed away the gods and their civilization came crashing down around their ears.

 

Thank you. I'm not adept at tarot so this was helpful.

 

Definitely makes sense for me with Vivienne - she's both better than she seems (loving virtue, pure of heart, loyal friend), but just as bad as she comes off (false lover, deceitful friend, pretender, treacherous, manipulative), in equal measure, IMO. I think she legitimately lies, but she also believes those lies, so it kinda makes them truths. We can hate her for her lies (and bad actions, etc), or we can think she's still with good intent and care behind the mask, and both can be true.

 

I think for 'Mythal = Andraste' it, like all spiritual matters in Dragon Age, can be expressed in a unique way, not the simplification of 'Mythal = Andraste'. For all we know, 'Mythal' could be part of what makes Andraste Andraste, but in a weird and indirect way. Just an example, not asserting a theory.

In any case, there is the continued symbolism happening of 'cycle', 'song', 'dance'. So I can't rule out 'Mythal' playing a part in the foundation of Andrastanism. I even think there's enough writing/tone hints to indicate that the 'Elven Gods' themselves were 'other things' before even being Elven Gods. 

With the merging and separation of essences, a lot can be true at once. An elf can be an elf, but what KIND of elf? What is a LEGIT elf? What is a GOD elf? What makes that elf a god or mortal, powerful or weak? Etc.

Basically, Mythal could be a part of this Andraste business without '=' it exactly. We just don't know how yet.

[SwobyJ]

Much to the reason why they can't base a major story aspect around it. Players chose who gets the Well of Sorrows meaning in future games if they did a major plot around this, they'd have to do it twice. Morrigan may appear again but she will either have it or won't and that's as far as it may go.

 

General idea here:

 

-While I've been called crazy for it, I like the theory that the Inquisitor is actually a spiritual imprint made mortal like Cole but more quickly created somehow. That could make the Inquisitor just spiritual enough to continue any story that would have involved him being tied to spirit stuff.

 

-At the same time, Morrigan can always be involved with Mythal stuff. Whether compelled to meet her (for example) or following her own research leading her to Mythal, Morrigan could always be in a sort of situation that involves Mythal, up to allowing herself to be possessed by her, to some extent.

 

I agree that they can't *base* a major story aspect around the Well of Sorrows, but like the 'Old God Baby', they can give us a consequence of effect and perspective depending on choice.

 

I recognize that the 'Inquisitor is/was a Spirit' idea is far fetched to many. Again, just a general idea.

[SwobyJ]

Not at all. Her connection to Mythal has me even more intrigued than before. I thought she was as evil as Morrigan made her out to be in DA:O, then I thought she was a demi-goddess 'cause she turned into a friggen dragon and that thing with Mythal's amulet, and then it turns out I was actually right and she actually possesses the essence of a goddess! She put a piece of her in the eluvian before Fen'harel torched her. There are so many questions to answer. Now that we know deities in this game are not infallible, what could be next? Will the Inquisitor ascend to godhood in the history books? Will the Inquisitor find and stop Fen'harel? I know Bioware likes to use new characters for each game but I really want to see my Inquisitor as a main character/companion again. I made another just so that he has romantic ties in hopes of the story changing up. I'm really excited for Mythal/Flemeth/Fen'harel/everybody.

 

Plus, it helps that Flemeth's voice actress also plays one of the most badass characters on a TV show about female inmates

 

Arguably, Mythal is just as bad as originally portrayed. Her own feelings about things and Morrigan's 'doubts' about her don't need to mean anything. For all we know, the next game could flip things around and showcase just how vengeful Flymythal is willing to be against her foes. And we may not like it.

 

And while others disagree, I think Sera's perspective is legitimate enough, even if its not allowed to always apply. We can truly regard all these 'gods' as instead demons by another name. Their actions and requirements and consistencies etc etc all screw up the world more than it needs to be, from a POV.

 

(I don't agree with Sera, but she's the voice, albeit a shrill-by-now, that continues the perspective that ANYTHING magic is at the very least NOT GOOD. That it all tampers with what Thedas is.)

 

I love Flemeth's VA and she's one of the primary reasons I'd want to see her again. I think Kate has gotten better and better at the character every time.

[SwobyJ]

She's dead....But her story is not over. It does not matter how she dies.

 

A god can die but that may only mean the god is reborn, or split, or did it intentionally for the sake of a goal.

 

Symbolism in Bioware games. Lern it. I study it like a final exam lol.

 

 

(Hell, to get IRL here, even a Christian perspective did that with Jesus. Jesus blood = wine. Jesus = God. Wine = God. Death of Jesus = Death of God. Still God is alive. Drink the blessed wine in communion = show that God is still with us. Still God is dead. We drink the wine to remember him. 2Deep4Us. Non-duelistic thinking.)

[SwobyJ]

Getting Solas to replace her makes me appreciate Flemeth so much more. 

 

No wonder the Maker myth won out - the elven and Tevinter gods are such toolbags. 

 

And of course nothing has yet actually disproved the core of Chantry teachings. It may be a limited way of looking at the universe of DA, but it may also still contain the secrets that others would otherwise ignore or be ignorant of, and it may be a way that (despite Chantry politics itself) is in fact the most aimed towards 'improving' the world, not just 'retaining' (Tevinter?) or 'changing' (Elves?) it.

 

*those 'Tevinter' and 'Elves' were just in a certain way to compare to 'Chantry' of course. I wouldn't seriously simplify them that much.

[SwobyJ]

Gosh there's a lot of daft comments on here. How can people be so blindly certain of exactly what took place in an epilogue that contains so much deliberate ambiguity?!

Also to the guy a few posts ago, even if a random dev note hidden on the disk DID state that the scene is Solas stealing Flemeth's power, how does that prove she's definitively dead? We've seen her rise from death before using a fragment of herself, and see her putting something in the eluvian before Solas arrives. Drained of power is not necessarily equal to dead for a character like this.

There are so many different interpretations of what we saw, and we'll no doubt not kmow the truth until the next game at the earliest.

 

Or we'll never know the truth, intentionally. Clever (/annoying to some, lol!) writing can obscure anything.

[SwobyJ]

I do not want to  see Mythal in any form  and Morrigan means Mythal now, with all the creators still somewhere, why Dragon age must lose others games for Mythal's big family, if someone wish another witch is better Yavana than see  Morrigan again.

 

'Mythal's big family' is what set up the series events in the first place. That's why she's important. Its why she's a big thing. She's trying to do something. We still don't know what that is.

 

In short:   Too bad.

[Beomer]

How worked up people tend to get. Onus of proof? WTF is this a murder trial with Solas as the accused?

 

I believe the dev notes that Solas absorbs Flemeth's power in that scene. It goes with the theory that he needs to use the Eluvian and the 'price' to be paid is the price of using the mirror. Flemeth pays that price for him despite the whole thing being Solas' f**k up. He apologizes because he thinks he's ending Mythal (for real, or so he thinks at least). She apologizes because she is sad (or is making a fool of him).

But why might she return? Because it's Flemeth. And because if we believe the dev notes in the game we also have to believe the World of Thedas Vol 1, which says that Flemeth won't be fine until she can pass on her power to Morrigan. So one way or another, she's going to come back.

[SwobyJ]

How worked up people tend to get. Onus of proof? WTF is this a murder trial with Solas as the accused?

 

I believe the dev notes that Solas absorbs Flemeth's power in that scene. It goes with the theory that he needs to use the Eluvian and the 'price' to be paid is the price of using the mirror. Flemeth pays that price for him despite the whole thing being Solas' f**k up. He apologizes because he thinks he's ending Mythal (for real, or so he thinks at least). She apologizes because she is sad (or is making a fool of him).

But why might she return? Because it's Flemeth. And because if we believe the dev notes in the game we also have to believe the World of Thedas Vol 1, which says that Flemeth won't be fine until she can pass on her power to Morrigan. So one way or another, she's going to come back.

 

That's the best interpretation IMO. Solas being the "I'm-a-suddenly do something drastic for something beyond us that you just don't understand *hipster glasses*" guy, and Mythal being the "I speak in riddles and two meanings because I have my own initiative and actually understand this shiz better than you think" gal. 

 

Solas: I'm sorry, but I gotta screw you over for the sake of my goal that I'll never stop pursuing. Love ya!

 

Mythal: I'm sorry you failed earlier, I feel bad for you. But really, I'm sorry you don't get that I'm immortal, ******! *shard of herself comes back elsewhere*

 

Mythal's still got her reckoning to do, and now she's in Solas and probably is elsewhere and at least has either Inquisitor or Morrigan under her control (or at least both under at least her manipulations - but that's connected to me thinking 'Inquisitor is/was a spirit' theory can be remotely legit lol).

 

 

DAI - Flemeth is Mythal! Flemeth is... DEAD?!??!

DA4/5 - Oh, okay, she never really died. She's actually everywhere now. GG Solas.

[Helgagrim]

Flemeth appearing has always been one of my favorite moments from Dragon Age 2 and Inquisition. I hope she isn't dead, and will appear in DA4 as well.

[Dieb]

None of them is an idiot, but Flemeth is a different kind of smart than Solas is. If anyone screws the other one over for their personal gain, it's gonna be her. The old hag has been watching over the events that transpired for centuries, and I sincerely doubt she didn't see this coming as well, all of a sudden.

 

No, I don't have any cut content archaeology endeavor to back me up on this, but I just chose to believe it.

 

It would be a shame if they turned Solas into a drop-in plot joker that destroys the role they created for Flemeth, which I truly enjoyed in all three games. It would diminish both roles, really. I like Solas a lot, but Flemeth was just as intellectually imposing, yet way more fun.

[Lethaya]

Personally, I don't think either of them screwed over the other. I think they both knew the (orbless) Plan B, are working towards a common or similar goal, and are willing to make necessary sacrifices to achieve it, as Flemeth apparently did. Doesn't mean I count her out, though. If anything she may be, ah. Temporarily inconvenienced? XD

 

Fair point.  While it seems blindingly obvious to me, I shouldn't have written that in a way so as to dismiss other peoples' interpretations as absolutely being wrong.  Until / unless we get a DLC or the next  game that confirms or denies either viewpoint, it's nice that everyone can enjoy their own headcanon in the mean time.  I also, for example, regardless of filenames of the animations, like to believe that it was Andraste that comes out of the well of sorrows to keep Cory from the mirror.

 

I am not sure what you are referring to regarding Solas / Cole.  Is that an ambient conversation I may have missed?

 

Btw, excellent post all around.

 

Heh, all the interpretations and headcanoning in this thread! So many of 'em. Too bad we'll all have to wait a while to get any answers out of dear old Bioware. XD Although sometimes, I swear, all Bioware does is give us more to question with each installment...

 

As for the conversation, after the ending if you talk to Cole, he saaays:

 

"I'm sorry, Cole, but with your gift, I fear that you will see the path I now must walk in solitude forever. This fate is mine alone. Indeed, I would not wish it on an enemy, much less someone that I once cared for. Though you reach out in compassion, I must now insist that you forget."

 

At that moment, Cole does indeed seem to forget whatever he was reaching out for, too. Implication here being that he was reaching after Solas and he didn't much care for it, especially as Cole even seems to take on Solas's... tone? manner of speaking? for a bit. Interesting that Solas could do that remotely, by the way.

 

And daw, thanks! :B Hehe.

 

 

In fact, edit! Might as well post this here:

 

Modifié par Lethaya, 17 avril 2015 - 10:22 .

[In Exile]

None of them is an idiot, but Flemeth is a different kind of smart than Solas is. If anyone screws the other one over for their personal gain, it's gonna be her. The old hag has been watching over the events that transpired for centuries, and I sincerely doubt she didn't see this coming as well, all of a sudden.

No, I don't have any cut content archaeology endeavor to back me up on this, but I just chose to believe it.

It would be a shame if they turned Solas into a drop-in plot joker that destroys the role they created for Flemeth, which I truly enjoyed in all three games. It would diminish both roles, really. I like Solas a lot, but Flemeth was just as intellectually imposing, yet way more fun.

I don't know why people think Flemeth wouldn't still have a presence. She's clearly made a move - and likely one to oppose Solas - right before he shows up. Her "I'm sorry too, old friend" is basically her saying that it pains her that she's had to set his downfall in motion.

[Junebug]

Arguably, Mythal is just as bad as originally portrayed. Her own feelings about things and Morrigan's 'doubts' about her don't need to mean anything. For all we know, the next game could flip things around and showcase just how vengeful Flymythal is willing to be against her foes. And we may not like it.

 

And while others disagree, I think Sera's perspective is legitimate enough, even if its not allowed to always apply. We can truly regard all these 'gods' as instead demons by another name. Their actions and requirements and consistencies etc etc all screw up the world more than it needs to be, from a POV.

 

(I don't agree with Sera, but she's the voice, albeit a shrill-by-now, that continues the perspective that ANYTHING magic is at the very least NOT GOOD. That it all tampers with what Thedas is.)

 

I love Flemeth's VA and she's one of the primary reasons I'd want to see her again. I think Kate has gotten better and better at the character every time.

Completely plausible. She did say Mythal's "day of reckoning will come"—both Flemeth and Mythal were betrayed. For all the compassion they sprinkle here and there, both women have a strong sense of vengeance. And that's really exciting to me Will she thwart Fen'harel's plans? What are her plans exactly? GAH! So much excitement!

 

I'm in the boat of semi-disagreement. Lumping Fen'harel and Mythal in with the likes of Corypheus is a bit much imho. Their actions—however well-meaning—can bring disastrous consequences so I do understand what she's getting at. But I love that about them. It just further proves that gods are not invulnerable to the consequences of their mistakes. I don't know, I really dig humanism and love that Bioware wrote them the way they did.

 

Yesssssss, she's so incredible. And I completely agree, she is Flemeth. Bioware did a brilliant job with casting.

[leaguer of one]

Developer notes mean nothing.  Data sitting on a disc that is never introduced into a game is meaningless and not worth considering.  Now, if y'all can get a video or audio clip of one of the devs actually saying, "yes, Solas came out on top in the epilogue and there is no other way to interpret it" then I'll change my tune.  Otherwise, I'm sticking with my interpretation.

 

I killed Leliana a couple of times.

I killed Sten at least once, yet he's apparently the Arishok.

I killed Oghren in one playthrough, yet he appeared in Awakening.

 

(those are not complaints about retcons, just showing that not everything is set in stone)

Wrong. They are valid. This is a description of events in games to other devs to let them know what is happening in game. 

[Fireheart]

This one scares me btw

 

 

What does a goblet mean? Why does Vivienne have the serpent that was used more in cards like Dorian's (does it represent Tevinter? Something else?)?

 

SO off topic but yeah.

Snake: Snake symbol meanings deal with renewal, rebirth and development primarily because they shed their skin during each cycle in growth. Snakes are also cold-blooded which means they depend on their environment for their body temperature. This is a symbolic message that we must be adaptive, flexible and adjust as best we can to our circumstances. When the snake slithers across the cards into our consciousness way may need to ask ourselves if we need to shed a part of ourselves to allow further growth, or perhaps we need to be a little more flexible in situations at work or home.

 

-tarotteachings.com

[Steppenwolf]

None of them is an idiot, but Flemeth is a different kind of smart than Solas is. If anyone screws the other one over for their personal gain, it's gonna be her.

You do know that Solas is the Dread Wolf, right? He's the trickster God. Outsmarting everyone is sort of his bag.
 

And again, they did not appear in game for me to see, and therefore had no bearing on my interpretation of what happened.  They essentially do not exist as far as I am concerned.  Now like I said, if some dev comes out here in the forums and officially states that Flemeth/Mythal is now dead, no ifs, ands, or buts, and that that is BioWare's official position and will never change in the future, then I'll accept that.  Short of that, I'll just wait until the next game or DLC that expands on what happened and keep my personal headcanon in the meantime.
 
There is absolutely nothing anyone (short of that dev situation) can say that will sway me from this.

Why do you employ a double standard? You have to see her death explicitly written out for you in the game or it doesn't count, the game's own files be damned. Buuuuut, if a dev came here and said she died you would take it as fact. The devs already told you she died. The game's files are not misleading you, they're explaining to you what happened. Those files weren't put there by some troll.

[Steppenwolf]

I don't really see it as a double standard.  What, exactly are you calling a "game file" anyway?  It certainly didn't appear in-game for me to see anywhere, so that leads me to believe it was some obscure file buried deeply in the file structure of the hard drive that someone bored enough to data mine just stumbled across at some point.  Is it signed by someone?  What, exactly are the contents?  Are they stated to be canon lore stamped with the Laidlaw seal of approval?

I'm now not sure if you've just been trolling this whole time or not.
 

You're, of course, free to accept it as proof of something.  I choose to go by what I experience in-game until I am proven otherwise by future in-game content.

That's the double standard. You say it has to be seen by you in the game... unless a dev says it. But the devs already said it. In the text associated with the scene in the game.

[The Hierophant]

After Flemeth's potential death in DAO, and reappearance in DA2 i thinks it's better to wait for dev confirmation.

[Steppenwolf]

No, I am not trolling, and I don't know how to explain the difference between some "text" you claim is in a file in the game's directories sitting in a hard drive that is meaningless to me as opposed to an experience I receive from playing the game.  I tried, you're either ignoring it or not seeing it.  Either way, I don't know how else to say it.  That file, whatever it is, simply is not a dev telling the community  something.   I cannot fathom how you figure it is.
 
Wait, I do actually need to qualify that.  If the file actually says something like, "Hey, Dragon Age community, this is the devs and this file is meant to be taken as absolute proof that Flemeth/Mythal died and we purposely put it here in this obscure place on your hard drive so you could eventually find it" then sure, I'll accept it.

The text is in the file for the devs. It's reference material, explaining what the game is supposed to show. I'm not sure what you think it would be otherwise. You're clearly just ignoring reality to suit your headcanon.