Guest_Faerunner_*
You're not going to list your opinion of the order though? Even if you don't want to put a grade score, you could still do a best-to-worst or worst-to-best list.
Because I don't think there needs to be a "best-to-worst" or "worst-to-best" list. Weren't you paying attention? I think they all have valid reasons and qualifications for joining the Grey Wardens (though I personally like some more than others), so I'm not going to put them in any order where I don't think there needs to be any order.
Best - Mage
Reason: Duncan's visit to the Circle makes sense as part of the war effort in the South, and it also serves as a convenient excuse to peruse promising mages for recruitment into the Grey Wardens. This makes all the more sense when you consider that he had already recruited Jory (a warrior) and Daveth (a rogue) - so all he needed was a magic user to round out the new batch of recruits.
I might be biased, because I am fond of the great chemistry Warden Mages can develop with Morrigan whether as a friend or lover.
Worst - Alienage Elf
Reason: Don't get me wrong, Duncan came from a similar background as a youth and he had a friend (Valerian) there who could point out any possible candidates. But Duncan already had someone who was street wise in the form of Daveth, and realistically it would be difficult to imagine finding an elf who was as capable a warrior as Jory considering the ban on most weapons in the Alienage (although that is certainly the case). When you have every tournament, tavern and lord's castle between you and Denerim then why would you make a beeline for the Alienage? If you wanted to recruit among a disenfranchised minority you may as well just go the extra mile and head to Orzimmar where casteless dwarven thugs are regularly killing each other on the streets for scraps.
With a blight on Ferelden's doorstep I just find it odd that the Grey Warden Commander would take a chance at finding a battle-ready recruit among normal Alienage dwelling elves.
Best - Mage
Reason: Duncan's visit to the Circle makes sense as part of the war effort in the South, and it also serves as a convenient excuse to peruse promising mages for recruitment into the Grey Wardens. This makes all the more sense when you consider that he had already recruited Jory (a warrior) and Daveth (a rogue) - so all he needed was a magic user to round out the new batch of recruits.
I might be biased, because I am fond of the great chemistry Warden Mages can develop with Morrigan whether as a friend or lover.
Worst - Alienage Elf
Reason: Don't get me wrong, Duncan came from a similar background as a youth and he had a friend (Valerian) there who could point out any possible candidates. But Duncan already had someone who was street wise in the form of Daveth, and realistically it would be difficult to imagine finding an elf who was as capable a warrior as Jory considering the ban on most weapons in the Alienage (although that is certainly the case). When you have every tournament, tavern and lord's castle between you and Denerim then why would you make a beeline for the Alienage? If you wanted to recruit among a disenfranchised minority you may as well just go the extra mile and head to Orzimmar where casteless dwarven thugs are regularly killing each other on the streets for scraps.
With a blight on Ferelden's doorstep I just find it odd that the Grey Warden Commander would take a chance at finding a battle-ready recruit among normal Alienage dwelling elves.
You make a beeline because you know that an EXTREMELY PROMISING woman you wanted to recruit that you couldn't has a child they passed all their awesome skills and training onto is at the age where they'll be at their physical peak, and now there's an actual blight that needs dealing with instead of no blight like when you wanted to recruit her. It would be foolish not to look into that. You can't get Adaia, but her child is the next best thing. Why wouldn't you go for it?
That... Has nothing to do with anything. I'm judging who the best recruit is before they're a warden. Like if Duncan somehow saw visions of the future of all 6 origins recruit possibilities, which would he consider the one he wants to make the trip for to get? Which recruit is the most promising as a potential.
And yet, everyone has different reasons to consider someone worthier than the other, and none of us is Duncan. As someone else said, *he* didn't start with the best potential either. And let's not forget that, before your character, he had also picked Daveth for the sole reason that he figured pickpocket=swift, and Ser Jory because he had won a tourne. Compared to our characters, they're not exactly *that* worthy now, are they?
And, btw, how sure are we that Duncan picked your characters out of worthiness? Since it seems to be worth repeating, *everyone* faces life-incarceration or death. So, basically, Duncan figures that he might help you join the Wardens, hope you survive the Joining and, once you become a Grey Warden, make yourself useful. He's recruiting. With that same logic, he doesn't know that he's going to die in Ostagar either. As cynical as it sounds, he only picks you to bolster the Grey Warden numbers - that's it.
You just listed things that can't be counted. Like the Cousland is the one with the "political status to unite the land"... No. Duncan was a very strict wardens-are-neutral person, and as far as Duncan knew there wasn't going to be any land uniting because he didn't know Loghain was going to cause civil war.
...Except none of the characters are neutral. Sure, you can role-play them however you want, but, for instance, the Dalish wants the best for his clan. He can either put Alistair or Anora on the throne and, as a reward, ask them to give his clan a home. That's not exactly neutral. Same with the City-elf. They put either of them on the throne, then ask for another boon that will benefit their people. Same with the mage. In fact, someone could also go far enough to say that this is bribery ('Okay, I put you on the throne, now pay up'). And let's not forget the Dwarves. DN has every reason to pick Harrowmont, while DC has every reason to pick Bhelen. Whatever they choose, it's still a political decision which no Grey Warden should have made if they are truly meant to be as neutral as you say. And, in the end, the people can accept your Cousland as a King or Queen because you kill Howe and you can also kill Loghain - so they might as well choose someone who is royalty, disregarding that, once a Grey Warden, you're basically just that and nothing more. The game *leads* you to that outcome, no matter what origin you play. And then in DAII, Stroud or any other Warden can tell Hawke that they're *not* interfering, exactly because your character and Alistair interfered in Ferelden in a way they *shouldn't* have.
And yet, everyone has different reasons to consider someone worthier than the other, and none of us is Duncan. As someone else said, *he* didn't start with the best potential either. And let's not forget that, before your character, he had also picked Daveth for the sole reason that he figured pickpocket=swift, and Ser Jory because he had won a tourne. Compared to our characters, they're not exactly *that* worthy now, are they?
And, btw, how sure are we that Duncan picked your characters out of worthiness? Since it seems to be worth repeating, *everyone* faces life-incarceration or death. So, basically, Duncan figures that he might help you join the Wardens, hope you survive the Joining and, once you become a Grey Warden, make yourself useful. He's recruiting. With that same logic, he doesn't know that he's going to die in Ostagar either. As cynical as it sounds, he only picks you to bolster the Grey Warden numbers - that's it.
...Except none of the characters are neutral. Sure, you can role-play them however you want, but, for instance, the Dalish wants the best for his clan. He can either put Alistair or Anora on the throne and, as a reward, ask them to give his clan a home. That's not exactly neutral. Same with the City-elf. They put either of them on the throne, then ask for another boon that will benefit their people. Same with the mage. In fact, someone could also go far enough to say that this is bribery ('Okay, I put you on the throne, now pay up'). And let's not forget the Dwarves. DN has every reason to pick Harrowmont, while DC has every reason to pick Bhelen. Whatever they choose, it's still a political decision which no Grey Warden should have made if they are truly meant to be as neutral as you say. And, in the end, the people can accept your Cousland as a King or Queen because you kill Howe and you can also kill Loghain - so they might as well choose someone who is royalty, disregarding that, once a Grey Warden, you're basically just that and nothing more. The game *leads* you to that outcome, no matter what origin you play. And then in DAII, Stroud or any other Warden can tell Hawke that they're *not* interfering, exactly because your character and Alistair interfered in Ferelden in a way they *shouldn't* have.
Potential as a grey warden recruit (bolded part) seems to be the part that you seem to be missing. How much political pull they have has ZERO to do with grey warden potential. Look at skills, what they accomplished, and how skilled they are ONLY. Trying to factor in being a noble as part of how good of a grey warden they'll be, as in how good at killing a ton of darkspawn they'll be, is folly.
Potential as a grey warden recruit (bolded part) seems to be the part that you seem to be missing. How much political pull they have has ZERO to do with grey warden potential. Look at skills, what they accomplished, and how skilled they are ONLY. Trying to factor in being a noble as part of how good of a grey warden they'll be, as in how good at killing a ton of darkspawn they'll be, is folly.
And yet, Duncan wants your character to also find the Warden treaties to use them to negotiate with the Dwarves, the Elves and the Mages. I'm just saying, there's diplomacy at play too (even if it is 'Hey, you, there's a Blight, and this here says you're to help, like it or not). *shrugs* And I've already said, it *depends* on what someone *personally* considers worthy. It's clear that you, *personally* (I shouldn't have to emphasize that since we're just stating opinions here, but oh well... ), don't consider political pull an advantage. I don't see why *no one else* shouldn't, especially when, to me, your character *has* to play politics too - taking sides in Orzammar and in the Landsmeet being the two examples that stand out the most.
Potential as a grey warden recruit (bolded part) seems to be the part that you seem to be missing. How much political pull they have has ZERO to do with grey warden potential. Look at skills, what they accomplished, and how skilled they are ONLY. Trying to factor in being a noble as part of how good of a grey warden they'll be, as in how good at killing a ton of darkspawn they'll be, is folly.
"Potential" is too ambiguous a term. If you are just talking 'potential', then all the origins save for the Dwarven Noble (who would surpass them all in skills, and experience) would rank exactly the same, because all eventually do survive the Joining and become awesome wardens. Because you haven't assigned a criteria being to their 'potential', just an ambiguous term (skills) that only you seem to know what you're looking for in a candidate, it's hard to rank them in terms of their potential because of this. Skills come in all kinds of categories.
Duncan was all the way in Highever because of 'rumors of skill' to recruit the Human Noble, and the fact that the young warden recruit has leadership skills (something Duncan makes note of in your first conversation with him) in addition to the best formal training money can buy would put him quite a few notches higher than the 'mother trained' city elf--who isn't even allowed to carry weapons or armor, so where do they even practice and keep said skills sharp? Even if they had been able to hide (potentially a honking huge 2 hander or bow) for practice, he has no inkling of what kind of person they might be, will they get along with their fellow grey wardens, do they hate humans...etc. Just because he knew their mother (and her only criteria seems to be she was a 'fiery woman' and could handle blades), that doesn't mean her child has the same level of skill--and actually because she lacked diplomacy (the reason she's dead), it would rank against recruitment. Why recruit someone who potentially could be a trouble maker or won't get along with his fellow wardens when so many other good candidates could be picked out so much closer to Ostagar?
Diplomacy/leadership skills--is quite a valuable asset, not only at the landsmeet, but among your fellow grey wardens AND the nobles in the land, or in any human situation for that matter--and becomes vitally important in Awakenings, because the Warden Commander's leadership is what's being tested in that expansion. Duncan is no fool, the grey wardens are not a large or popular group in Ferelden, having only just returned thanks to Maric two decades prior. He will say as such if you poo-poo Cailan as a silly man telling you that you shouldn't speak that way since Cailan 'is one of their few allies'. After the Blight is dealt with, there is the mission to build the order, restore order to the nation and the people will look to the grey wardens to do that if there are darkspawn to continue to deal with. And Duncan is aware of this as well when recruiting.
Everyone is different, different people assign value to a lot of different 'potentials'. We had quite the discussion upthread about how much value Duncan (who was all about 'killing darkspawn') would place on someone who actually killed darkspawn vs someone with no practical experience with the enemy he will be fighting. You think it's not a consideration (aside from the truckload of darkspawn the dwarven noble kills) and feel the city elf (who has only the training mom gave him/her) ranked a lot higher than I felt they deserved, simply because he racks a bodycount in Vaughan's estate--something Duncan couldn't have predicted when he came to Denerim. You have already pointed out the Human Noble kills even more than the city elf, and Howe's men were warriors/rogues, there to lay siege to the castle, not complacent rapists/guards being knocked off in their leisure time. Perhaps you should list the criteria you feel are the most useful to the discussion, instead of arguing the merits of this or that value, because people are going to weigh in with a lot of different ideas as to what makes a 'great potential candidate' vs a lesser one. And they may not agree with your assessments either, but that doesn't mean they are ignoring 'potential' they just see potential where you don't.
If I took anything from this discussion, it's this: I ranked the Dalish far too low (probably because I just find the origin boring).
Duncan would reason that a living adequate warden would be far more valuable an asset than a dead potentially awesome one .
Ultimately, surviving to actually be of use to the wardens makes a recruit far more valuable than any 'skills' since skills can be taught. Survival of the taint seems to be a crap shoot that can't be predicted. In this, the Dalish's "accomplishment" outranks even the Dwarven Noble, who has a lot more skill/experience but lacks that one factor.
If I took anything from this discussion, it's this: I ranked the Dalish far too low (probably because I just find the origin boring).
Duncan would reason that a living adequate warden would be far more valuable an asset than a dead potentially awesome one .
Ultimately, surviving to actually be of use to the wardens makes a recruit far more valuable than any 'skills' since skills can be taught. Survival of the taint seems to be a crap shoot that can't be predicted. In this, the Dalish's "accomplishment" outranks even the Dwarven Noble, who has a lot more skill/experience but lacks that one factor.
This is what I admire the most every time I compare all six characters; the fact that by the time Duncan found the Dalish recruit, they *were* sick, they *were* dying, and yet they had the strength to live - and even fight when it was needed - long after they arrived at Ostagar and, on top of that, survive the Joining. I always thought that was badass. The Dwarven Noble also survives against all odds (facing the deep roads with nothing but a measly sword), but they're healthy and they've been fighting darkspawn their whole life.
Then again, Dalish is one of my favourite origins - in case my avatar doesn't make it abundantly clear XD - so I'm not the most objective one to talk.
"Potential" is too ambiguous a term. If you are just talking 'potential', then all the origins save for the Dwarven Noble (who would surpass them all in skills, and experience) would rank exactly the same, because all eventually do survive the Joining and become awesome wardens. Because you haven't assigned a criteria being to their 'potential', just an ambiguous term (skills) that only you seem to know what you're looking for in a candidate, it's hard to rank them in terms of their potential because of this. Skills come in all kinds of categories.
Duncan was all the way in Highever because of 'rumors of skill' to recruit the Human Noble, and the fact that the young warden recruit has leadership skills (something Duncan makes note of in your first conversation with him) in addition to the best formal training money can buy would put him quite a few notches higher than the 'mother trained' city elf--who isn't even allowed to carry weapons or armor, so where do they even practice and keep said skills sharp? Even if they had been able to hide (potentially a honking huge 2 hander or bow) for practice, he has no inkling of what kind of person they might be, will they get along with their fellow grey wardens, do they hate humans...etc. Just because he knew their mother (and her only criteria seems to be she was a 'fiery woman' and could handle blades), that doesn't mean her child has the same level of skill--and actually because she lacked diplomacy (the reason she's dead), it would rank against recruitment. Why recruit someone who potentially could be a trouble maker or won't get along with his fellow wardens when so many other good candidates could be picked out so much closer to Ostagar?
Diplomacy/leadership skills--is quite a valuable asset, not only at the landsmeet, but among your fellow grey wardens AND the nobles in the land, or in any human situation for that matter--and becomes vitally important in Awakenings, because the Warden Commander's leadership is what's being tested in that expansion. Duncan is no fool, the grey wardens are not a large or popular group in Ferelden, having only just returned thanks to Maric two decades prior. He will say as such if you poo-poo Cailan as a silly man telling you that you shouldn't speak that way since Cailan 'is one of their few allies'. After the Blight is dealt with, there is the mission to build the order, restore order to the nation and the people will look to the grey wardens to do that if there are darkspawn to continue to deal with. And Duncan is aware of this as well when recruiting.
Everyone is different, different people assign value to a lot of different 'potentials'. We had quite the discussion upthread about how much value Duncan (who was all about 'killing darkspawn') would place on someone who actually killed darkspawn vs someone with no practical experience with the enemy he will be fighting. You think it's not a consideration (aside from the truckload of darkspawn the dwarven noble kills) and feel the city elf (who has only the training mom gave him/her) ranked a lot higher than I felt they deserved, simply because he racks a bodycount in Vaughan's estate--something Duncan couldn't have predicted when he came to Denerim. You have already pointed out the Human Noble kills even more than the city elf, and Howe's men were warriors/rogues, there to lay siege to the castle, not complacent rapists/guards being knocked off in their leisure time. Perhaps you should list the criteria you feel are the most useful to the discussion, instead of arguing the merits of this or that value, because people are going to weigh in with a lot of different ideas as to what makes a 'great potential candidate' vs a lesser one. And they may not agree with your assessments either, but that doesn't mean they are ignoring 'potential' they just see potential where you don't.
than HOWE'S MEN. You know, because Howe's men are so much more morally superior?This is what I admire the most every time I compare all six characters; the fact that by the time Duncan found the Dalish recruit, they *were* sick, they *were* dying, and yet they had the strength to live - and even fight when it was needed - long after they arrived at Ostagar and, on top of that, survive the Joining. I always thought that was badass. The Dwarven Noble also survives against all odds (facing the deep roads with nothing but a measly sword), but they're healthy and they've been fighting darkspawn their whole life.
Then again, Dalish is one of my favourite origins - in case my avatar doesn't make it abundantly clear- so I'm not the most objective one to talk.
If I took anything from this discussion, it's this: I ranked the Dalish far too low (probably because I just find the origin boring).
Duncan would reason that a living adequate warden would be far more valuable an asset than a dead potentially awesome one .
Ultimately, surviving to actually be of use to the wardens makes a recruit far more valuable than any 'skills' since skills can be taught. Survival of the taint seems to be a crap shoot that can't be predicted. In this, the Dalish's "accomplishment" outranks even the Dwarven Noble, who has a lot more skill/experience but lacks that one factor.
Then again, Dalish is one of my favourite origins - in case my avatar doesn't make it abundantly clear XD - so I'm not the most objective one to talk.
The last post got too big, so this will be separate and even a little off topic. But I want to like the Dalish origin. I REALLY do. But it's just... Awful. It's more disconnected from the plot than any other origin story, the one callback to their origin is a tiny optional ambush of shriek's. Yes, optional. My first Dalish playthrough, I actually missed the event with Tamlen. Going straight to the camp from the second to last treaty quest makes you miss the ambush, you need to actually try to travel to another location. I didn't even realized I missed anything until well after the chance to get that event was saved over. The dalish in the treaty quest still treat you like crap in some weird ways and aren't even connected to your own clan at all. There's no connection to your origin besides an optional event. Compare it to every other origin that all get a significant call back to it (alienage during landsmeet for CE, Howe's estate for HN, returning to Orzammar for either dwarf origin, returning to the circle tower for a mage), and it's just utterly lacking. Combine to that the female Dalish armor being a ridiculous 2 piece that I can't stand so I'm completely FORCED to play Dalish as male whether I like it or not... Yeah, they dropped the ball. Dalish had the most potential to be one of the best origins, especially since I like their lore so much, and that potential was completely squandered. It's almost like Bioware made that origin their canon as a small apology to the origin getting dumped on so badly, because goodness knows it needed some kind of reparation. Seriously, it had all the potential to be my favorite origin and yet ends up being my least liked 
.
Grey wardens are supposed to be neutral and not get into politics. Ergo, political ability is not even considered in grey warden recruitment.
You must remember that needing to get political and there even BEING a landsmeet was something that was never supposed to happen to begin with. You're off to recruit someone and your order is meant to remain neutral at all times, are you going to factor in political ability considering that? You shouldn't. The only reason you had to was because a ton of factors happened that shouldn't have necessitated it, you shouldn't plan for something that should be impossible.
You *need* men to fight the Blight. With that in mind, you *have* to get them, even if it means intervening in politics. You *can't* get the help of *anyone* if you go, 'You know what guys? Deal with your issues and then we'll talk." Even the *game* doesn't permit you to do that.
You only become warden commander because of those very same factors they made you need to get political when you're not supposed to, but the plan would was never to consider your recently recruited ass to be touching anything close to a leadership role.
Sure, Duncan didn't hire you because you were *meant* to lead the Grey Wardens - he doesn't even know *he* is going to die. But he can see your potential as leading a group of Grey Wardens patrolling or defending, or to figure out tactics or to even be a liaison with royals when asking for more recruits, or negotiations with more potential allies, just like it happened in the case of the Elves or the Dwarves. Those are all skills that don't have to do with how many darkspawn you can kill. After all, the world isn't always facing Blights. There are also long periods of darkspawn inactivity. So... what is your part then if you're only good at sticking a long piece of iron in someone's gut?
I have a Warden-Commander by the name of Sophia Dryden that shows that Grey Wardens can only remain neutral in theory.
You *need* men to fight the Blight. With that in mind, you *have* to get them, even if it means intervening in politics. You *can't* get the help of *anyone* if you go, 'You know what guys? Deal with your issues and then we'll talk." Even the *game* doesn't permit you to do that.
Sure, Duncan didn't hire you because you were *meant* to lead the Grey Wardens - he doesn't even know *he* is going to die. But he can see your potential as leading a group of Grey Wardens patrolling or defending, or to figure out tactics or to even be a liaison with royals when asking for more recruits, or negotiations with more potential allies, just like it happened in the case of the Elves or the Dwarves. Those are all skills that don't have to do with how many darkspawn you can kill. After all, the world isn't always facing Blights. There are also long periods of darkspawn inactivity. So... what is your part then if you're only good at sticking a long piece of iron in someone's gut?
Duncan actually would have let Ferelden die before he would get political. That is word of god, straight from Gaider's words. And no, I can't find the link anymore to prove that, so take it with a grain of salt. But he did pretty much say that if Duncan had survived Ostagar, he would have pulled the wardens out of Ferelden and let them doom themselves. So no, he wasn't factoring in political ability at all. I think the wardens figure that if you're good at politics, great. If not, who cares? They certainly don't look for that kind of attribute when recruiting.
Duncan actually would have let Ferelden die before he would get political. That is word of god, straight from Gaider's words. And no, I can't find the link anymore to prove that, so take it with a grain of salt. But he did pretty much say that if Duncan had survived Ostagar, he would have pulled the wardens out of Ferelden and let them doom themselves. So no, he wasn't factoring in political ability at all. I think the wardens figure that if you're good at politics, great. If not, who cares? They certainly don't look for that kind of attribute when recruiting.
You're right, I'm taking it with a grain of salt because he has the Treaties. Asking you to recover them and then *not* using them after Ostagar seems a bit silly.
Look, it's obvious that you have your opinion and I have mine. You can keep on trying to convince me it's somehow *wrong* I have that kind of opinion, but the truth of the matter is, this thread doesn't seem to warrant a right or wrong answer for the reasons I've already stated and they're not worth repeating. If it means to you I don't understand, then perhaps I don't, so I might as well step back. Your thread, your rules.
You're right, I'm taking it with a grain of salt because he has the Treaties. Asking you to recover them and then *not* using them after Ostagar seems a bit silly.
Look, it's obvious that you have your opinion and I have mine. You can keep on trying to convince me it's somehow *wrong* I have that kind of opinion, but the truth of the matter is, this thread doesn't seem to warrant a right or wrong answer for the reasons I've already stated and they're not worth repeating. If it means to you I don't understand, then perhaps I don't, so I might as well step back. Your thread, your rules.
You don't get it. Yes, he got the treaties... Didn't mean he was going to play politics or get involved. Learning the circle tower was a demon fest, learning the Dalish had a werewolf problem, DECIDING THE NEXT KING OF ORZAMMAR? No, he wasn't going to do any of that. He was going to use the treaties, but not if it meant getting involved in that nonsense. I didn't list Redcliffe because there wasn't even a treaty for that one.
And no, there is no right or wrong answer. There's my own opinion that I am willing to argue for, but I've only called one post actually WRONG (the one saying city elf is the absolute worst). The rest I've merely disagreed with, not attacked anyone. I don't make threads just to hear an echo chamber of everyone agreeing with me, I honestly wanted a good debate. Which so far, I've gotten.
It's worth mentioning that the mage is the only one that doesn't start with combat training. If Duncan isn't so desperate to recruit mages-well, you get the picture.
As for best and worst-I'm just not that impressed with the Dwarf Commoner-especially since it's a option to use drugs to make it into that fight.
Best-Dwarf Noble. I'm just that mission he/she goes on in the origin is not their first time killing darkspawn.
Because breaking up quote blocks is annoying, I'll just go paragraph by paragraph. Easier that way. A paragraph of mine will be responding to your own paragraph, like my first one is to your first one.
It's not ambiguous. Like I said from the start, who is most actually worthy of being a warden. Imagine it's a competition, with the winner being the most skilled fighter who has accomplished the most to prove they would be the best recruit. It's not that complicated.
Yes, human noble is pretty damn good. Yet they need lots of help with their mabari and mother and castle guards to go through 48 soldiers, while the city elf only needs her cousin who has never used a weapon in his life to kill 27 soldiers plus 3 mabari. Lesser number of soldiers, but the Cousland has EXTREMELY better help than the city elf. Regardless of the crappier training, they still outperformed the Cousland there. The city elf just flat out shows a more impressive feat of killing ability, regardless of the tales of the Cousland's skill. Now granted you could argue that the Cousland could have also pulled off the city elf's scenario... But who knows for sure. Facts are facts, and the facts are that the city elf showed better fighting capability based on what did happen. And the point about not knowing what they're like? Wrong. The elder who is friends with Duncan has told him about the city elf before, Duncan alludes to knowing QUITE A BIT about you in conversations with him. So he already had a very good idea what to expect from you before he arrived. And by the way, you put a point in the Cousland's favor for going all the the to Highever just for them? Well Duncan went all the way to Denerim just for the city elf too.
Grey wardens are supposed to be neutral and not get into politics. Ergo, political ability is not even considered in grey warden recruitment. You must remember that needing to get political and there even BEING a landsmeet was something that was never supposed to happen to begin with. You're off to recruit someone and your order is meant to remain neutral at all times, are you going to factor in political ability considering that? You shouldn't. The only reason you had to was because a ton of factors happened that shouldn't have necessitated it, you shouldn't plan for something that should be impossible. One may as well try to plan for the moon crashing into the planet. And the "rebuild the order" thing? Irrelevant, they would have sent a senor warden to do that... Which they DO if your character dies. You only become warden commander because of those very same factors they made you need to get political when you're not supposed to, but the plan would was never to consider your recently recruited ass to be touching anything close to a leadership role.
(this part needs a few extra paragraphs, consider everything below to be my response to the final paragraph)
Why do you assume the guards were complacent? Because they're bad people? Right, being morally bad definitely means they have less training and skill (sarcasm)
"But I swear the arl's men are more criminal than the miscreants we occasionally arrest. Some of them are the criminals we have to arrest"
Oh right, never mind then.
Again, there's a difference between taking a few disorganized darkspawn in a ruin that are being hit from 2 different sides and being in the actual deeproads where entire bands of organized darkspawn roam. That's why I count it in the DN's favor and not the DE's favor. Dalish handles about 7 darkspawn with significant help, with Duncan hitting their back ranks, on the surface. That's not the same as leading successful campaigns against entire companies of darkspawn on their own turf.
And yes, best case scenario Duncan would have recruited you without you needing to do anything to prove yourself. Yes it's merely bad luck that each Origin has the person needing to kill dozens of people. But some go through worse scenarios than others and who's backstory shows more impressive skill and experience. My criteria is very simple and I can't understand how people think it isn't. Look at each origin scenario and the backstory of each character and the number and type of enemies they go through and the kind of backup they had while fighting said enemies and tell me who looks like they'll be best at killing lots of enemies and possibly leading others against enemies if it is required, that is how you should be scoring.
Fyi, about my scoring, I consider the average soldier to be a 3 as far as worth for being a grey warden is concerned. Which means that Ser Jory for example, along with most everyone at Ostagar, is a mere 3 too. So I'm still giving good accolades to the Dalish, they're still being just under TWICE as worthy as the average well trained soldier in the King's army. With the Casteless being 3 times better and the dwarven noble being a little more than 3 times better. Maybe this will give perspective to my grading?
That's more because of the Keeper's magic than their own resistance. Not to diminish them entirely, they obviously have a good innate resistance to the blight to have even lasted long enough for her to start using her Keeper-mojo on them in the first place.
That factor is what made me bump them from a 4 to a 5, so I did get swayed to a point about them. But I can't see going through a ruin with some skeletons and taking on 7 darkspawn in 2 separate battles with a mages help to be equal to carving your way through a Carta base after winning a proving without training, or cutting through a small army invading your home, or killing an entire arl estate almost by yourself, or being a mage, or (insert a million impressive things about the dwarven noble here).
Well, leadership skills would be valuable when your ass is going out on scouting missions with other recruits/wardens/soldiers. Duncan doesn't accompany every group of wardens/scouts on every little mission. Your first mission for the wardens separates you from them and sends you up to the tower to light the signal fire. Alistair is as green as you. Duncan doesn't accompany you, nor does he send you with a more senior warden than a green one 6 months past his joining. He puts Alistair in charge since "he will know what to look for" but beyond that doesn't specify how you get the job done, leaving it up to the two of you to do so. Part of leading others is 'delegation of responsibility' which means he would rely on his junior wardens (who show they have the leadership chops to do so) to lead others in battle, and the Dwarven/Human Nobles share this quality with the other origins having it (or lacking) in varying degrees--and IMO the Dwarven one still outshines the Human in this category because of the enemy they are leading troops against. One of the reasons I rank the Dwarven noble so high is because they were a commander of troops with proven leadership skills by the time they are recruited. Just because your brother screws you over didn't mean your mission failed.
Your criteria is ambiguous because "accomplishments" means a lot of categories to different people. Going by backstory and origin, this still means imo the CE trails behind the others. If this were the only criteria i had to pick from, I'd say the City elf is on a par with Daveth who was recruited not just because he was going to be hanged, but because Duncan saw he was 'wicked fast with a dagger' and he managed to elude Duncan through the streets/alleys of Denerim, making him quick on his feet and a quick thinker. And probably has done a lot more actual fighting in the streets of Denerim than the city elf, who isn't even allowed to carry visible weapons or wear even leather armor. The backstory of the City elf is what I find limits his potential because technically he shouldn't have much more than rudimentary skills at best. That he doesn't is to his credit (and a large part an aspect of gameplay). His strengths aren't just 'ability to fight', but an ability to think quickly on his/her feet, adapt to a situation quickly and turn it to her advantage, perhaps even a little bit of leadership skills (since Solas needs some convincing)--some of the same traits the PC shares with Daveth. I never said the CE was unworthy, just I found other origins more along the lines of my view of 'potential', seeing qualities beyond just the ability to wrack up a body count as criteria.
To lead into the next point, I will insert an explanation of what I meant by "Complacent". I've cut and pasted the definition from the google dictionary for my definition of use here:
pleased, especially with oneself or one's merits, advantages, situation,etc., often without awareness of some potential danger or defect; self-satisfied:
City elf has no formal training, she doesn't engage in fighting every day like the other origins would, only 'practice' if that. There is a world of difference between whacking a post with a sword vs actually fighting/killing someone. From a storyline PoV, whether she kills a bunch of complacent--as in these guys are used to dealing on a daily basis with unarmed elves and lack any real skill of worth beyond knowing the pointy end of a sword from a pommel, making them overconfident, to use another word that fits,--or not, is irrelevant in consideration since it's not something that would bring Duncan all the way to Denerim for, since it hasn't happened yet. Only 'rumors' of his/her skill. At the time Duncan comes to Denerim, he has only 'rumors' of skill to go by. The city elf hasn't, in fact, killed anyone when Duncan comes looking and the slaughter fest shouldn't be considered in this 'potential', only a factor after the fact, if at all, since all the origins at some point have to kill a bunch of mobs.
The same could be said of all but the mage origin at that point since when Duncan arrives in Highever and Denerim, he's come for 'rumors'; in Orzammar he isn't even looking for recruits at all--in the case of the noble--and sees a good recruit in the commoner's Proving performance, though not there specifically for that particular PC; and in the Brecilian forest he just stumbles onto the ruins/Dalish camp, making the Mahariel a "lucky" survivor who goes to Ostagar. The only place he would actually get what he's after is the Mage tower since he seeks not only recruits, but (barring that) mage assistance in the battle. However, Irving brought him there specifically for the Mage PC, he is well aware without a doubt of the PC's magical skills--it's a proven factor already from the training received from Irving--not rumors but actual eyewitness accounting--and the Harrowing which happens the previous night.
You point out the Dalish has a lot of help and few enemies, but the quality of the enemies (darkspawn--one of which is an emissary) and the Human noble (trained groups of warriors--and in the main hall at least one mage) vs overconfident guards in Vaughan's estate, and three spoiled nobles both qualify higher, from a storytelling perspective than the city elf IMO. And pointing out the help they have doesn't matter much either because Solas is as skilled as Mother Cousland (a woman in her 50s) having some warrior abilities--despite his protestations. If he were some helpless lodestone around the player's neck, I'd grant you a point there, but he isn't, gameplay (which is how you get the body count in the first place) means he's as able to assist as well as any of the helpers. Even from a story perspective, you can tell him he's more of a help than he protests--though you can also tell him he's a useless slug--it varies in how you play it out. In that respect you can 'pump' up the potential of the CE, similarly to the DC by not drugging his opponents in the Proving.
Merrill isn't Irving or Marethari. If you are protesting she's more powerful from a 'storyline' PoV, she isn't coming along 'to fight' she's coming to find Tamlen and to look at the mirror and see if it can be used to cure the PC. They don't expect to find darkspawn since the PC and Tamlen 'already cleared the ruins'. She is as nervous and untested as much as any of the other origin helpers and will repeatedly reveal this in her dialogues. From a gameplay PoV, she's a keeper's first, putting her on a 'power level' akin to the PC, only with the ability to toss around a few spells instead of arrows. She certainly doesn't get any AOE's or overpowered skills. As for Fenarel, you can tell him to stay behind in camp if you choose to, just as you can choose not to drug the warriors in the proving in the DC origin, or refuse alternate assistance from guards in the HN origin.
There has to be more to a recruit's potential than just 'body count', which seems to be the only criteria you are assigning to anyone except the Dwarf Noble. Technically any origin could do any other origin's fighting and come out with the same bodycount since bodycount (number of opponents) is a gameplay aspect, not story. I would argue that quality of enemies would trump body count. Again, why I rated the Dwarven Noble so high since he has actual experience fighting the enemy grey wardens fight.
The Dalish survives the taint, regardless of how or why, he lives--he's assured to survive the Joining, since he's already tainted. It's not 'cured' until the Joining, all Marethari could do was stave it off for a time and even she says she doesn't know how the PC survived, which factors in some quality of survivability within the PC himself. I'd say a 'living adequate warden' trumps a 'dead awesome recruit' any day.
Of course leadership ability matters, no question about it. Lack of that is the reason I didn't give city elf the same score as casteless dwarf, that was the thing that separates them (more is further down on why I see the casteless as being better at leadership than the city elf is ). And the dwarven noble has far more leadership experience than the human noble, leading soldier through active combat warzones in the deeproads is much more significant than ANY leading the Cousland did. Leadership is also why I ranked the Dalish low, they have the least impressive combat scenarios next to the mage on top of being just another hunter who's never led anyone before.
Big difference. Daveth stole a purse, city elf killed an entire castle of soldiers almost entirely by themselves. That's comparable? I don't see Daveth pulling that one-person-army trick off by any stretch. And I've tried avoiding using gendered pronouns, but if you're going to call the city elf a he... Than I'm using them after all. The city elf can only ever be a female to me.
What you note for why you scored her low is exactly why the city elf scores so high to me. If she's fighting on equal level as the human noble WITH ALL THE HANDICAPS YOU'VE LAID OUT, then she's clearly better. Same fighting ability, but one has more training and one has less. If someone with less training is matching someone with more training, than the person with less training clearly has more natural combat ability and thus should have more room to grow. After all, if she's as good as the human noble with less training then it stands to reason she'll be better with training than the human noble is once she's as well trained as they are. Human noble is already highly trained and is still only matching the city elf who has barely any training, it's clear who has more potential. Pulling off her castle slaughter with so much less training and experience than the human noble makes her that much more notable. This is also why I score casteless so highly, they too pull of the "is as good or better with zero training than people with far more training" thing... Except against the best warriors the city has to offer instead of just guards, which merits a higher score than the city elf along with more leadership than the city elf since they so clearly take the lead when they're stuck working with other Carta members. And about the guards, it doesn't make them overconfident. They're arl soldiers, arl soldiers are supposed to be elite since they're guarding actual leaders of the nation itself instead of random nobles are guarding markets. If anything, they're the best of the best and at the very least rivaling Howe's men that invade the Cousland castle since they're also arl soldiers just like the guys the city elf slaughters.
Actually, Duncan is in Orzammar for recruits... In the casteless origin anyway. The reasons given are different depending on the origin. In the casteless one he shows up a week earlier than in the noble one, and he's there looking for recruits specifically. That is the point of the proving, to show him who the best warriors are in the city so he can decide who to make his dwarven recruit. It's not much different from Ser Jory winning the grand melee in Duncan's honor getting him recruited. In fact, the casteless' reason for being recruited is almost EXACTLY Jory's reason. It just so happened that instead of one of the great warriors winning, a casteless won. But it didn't matter, Duncan had his recruit since the winner was supposed to be the recruit and Duncan didn't care that a casteless isn't "supposed" to count. For the noble, his being there has nothing to do with recruiting at all. He was just there to investigate the deep roads, recruitment was just happenstance. Or maybe he was there for both reasons, but decided the warriors in the proving weren't good enough and the casteless simply 'disappeared never to be seen again' once the Carta got them and for some reason the casteless couldn't escape to be found by the city guard and Duncan. So maybe he went there for recruits, the casteless winner disappeared, so Duncan just stuck around to check out the deep roads. Or maybe it was one or the other based on which origin you picked. Who knows. Regardless, he absolutely was at the casteless' proving victory for the intention of getting a dwarven recruit and who it was going to be that was going to be recruited was going to be down to the winner.
Gone over the point about the guards. Overconfident or not, arl guards are elite... Period. Kendall's guards or Howe's guards, arl guards are all about as well trained. That's their purpose. The point about Solas is gameplay-story segregation (realistically the dwarven noble should be starting at freaking level 11 to level 14 or something if story and gameplay matched).
Merrill is pretty good actually. She apparently fights up the Sundermount path alone on her second trip before she met Hawke, and as you know that path is always dangerous as hell with undead and spiders and dragonlings all showing up on that mountain frequently. And this was before she learned blood magic, in case you think that was the reason she was strong enough to make it up there by herself. Merrill is a naturally gifted mage with a lot of power even without blood magic. Her being nervous doesn't mean she's anywhere near as weak as you're thinking she is.
Being tainted doesn't actually mean a full guarantee of surviving the joining, just a much higher likelihood. Proof? DA2 Stroud. He tells Hawke that the joining could still kill their sibling and they might still be doomed, and they're so damn tainted that their eyes are going foggy. If being tainted when doing the joining was a sure survival bet, Stroud wouldn't have said that.
And for proof about Duncan looking for recruits in the casteless proving...
2:04
"they're showing off for some grey warden who's looking for candidates to drag off to a life of eternal glory."
6:12
["Is it true you're looking for recruits?"]
[Blah blah blah wardens kind to allies and ruthless to their enemies and it's hard to find someone with all the right qualities for being a warden], "but I hope to find it here."
So yeah, the proving wasn't just for the hell of it. It was to find a dwarven recruit, and the casteless is the winner so Duncan wants to recruit them. It's that simple.
I'm sorry, I tend to get lazy with pronouns. I try to use them interchangeably, but tend to get lazy in long posts. For me, the CE will pretty much always be a she too as I find the female PC side of the wedding abduction more compelling than the male, but that's just a personal thing. No insult to either gender was intended, and I try to spread out pronouns pretty equally.
You state that the Arl guards are an elite force like it's undisputed fact (Period actually spelled out vs using a .), when in fact it's just your opinion. I see nothing that would suggest these guys are any better than any other city guard (and I'd attest a level of competence to Sgt Kylon--a market guard--as far higher than those mooks in the estate--and even he won't go into the back alleys of Denerim, a place where Daveth was comfortable being). They are used to bullying around defenseless elves, how does that make them 'elite' in any estimation? In fact, they come off as rather incompetent boobs to me, more akin to Kylon's 'bastard' charges in the guard than 'elite troops'. That they guard an arl's estate doesn't make them any more competent than Howe's army (who also guard an arl, are they as elite?). At least Howe's army comes prepared for a fight, get the surprise on the Cousland's and nearly kill the entire family. The city elf turns the tables on the guards in Vaughan's estate, not from any particular skill, but because the guards are such idiots, they don't expect resistance. I will grant you if I had more respect for Vaughan and his guards I'd probably estimate the CE higher than I do, but as i don't, it factors into my assessment of the CE's overall "potential". Perhaps that's a huge part of the disparity between our viewpoints. You account the guards/Vaughan with more skill than I do.
Also, body count is the least of my estimation of worthiness, finding quality of opponents, leadership skills, ability to think quickly and react to situations to your advantage (strategize), potential to survive the joining all as part of the equation. And marked the CE accordingly. She does well in 'think on your feet and turn a situation to your advantage" but scores lower in other categories. The Dalish does poorly in leadership, think on your feet and reacting quickly (since he basically gets dragged into the situation out of Tamlen's curiosity), but in quality of enemies (darkspawn) and the ability to survive the taint (however you want to assess the reasons) he scores higher. As i said, the only one I feel gets the best scores in all categories is the dwarven noble. While it may be argued your noble gets played by Bhelen and scores low in 'think on your feet', she has to survive the deep roads and reach Duncan past a butt load of darkspawn with only a dagger and a dirty shift to her name. There is some factor of 'thinking on your feet' to accomplishing that.
As for the casteless, I should have separated them from the Dwarven noble in the Orzammar comment though I thought I specified Duncan was, indeed, looking for recruits at the Proving (just not THAT particular PC--so no 'rumors' to seek out the DC brought him ahead of time). I wasn't arguing that he wasn't looking for recruits in the DC origin, just not THAT recruit. I should have been more clear. Sorry.
I'm sorry, I tend to get lazy with pronouns. I try to use them interchangeably, but tend to get lazy in long posts. For me, the CE will pretty much always be a she too as I find the female PC side of the wedding abduction more compelling than the male, but that's just a personal thing. No insult to either gender was intended, and I try to spread out pronouns pretty equally.
You state that the Arl guards are an elite force like it's undisputed fact (Period actually spelled out vs using a .), when in fact it's just your opinion. I see nothing that would suggest these guys are any better than any other city guard (and I'd attest a level of competence to Sgt Kylon--a market guard--as far higher than those mooks in the estate--and even he won't go into the back alleys of Denerim, a place where Daveth was comfortable being). They are used to bullying around defenseless elves, how does that make them 'elite' in any estimation? In fact, they come off as rather incompetent boobs to me, more akin to Kylon's 'bastard' charges in the guard than 'elite troops'. That they guard an arl's estate doesn't make them any more competent than Howe's army (who also guard an arl, are they as elite?). At least Howe's army comes prepared for a fight, get the surprise on the Cousland's and nearly kill the entire family. The city elf turns the tables on the guards in Vaughan's estate, not from any particular skill, but because the guards are such idiots, they don't expect resistance. I will grant you if I had more respect for Vaughan and his guards I'd probably estimate the CE higher than I do, but as i don't, it factors into my assessment of the CE's overall "potential". Perhaps that's a huge part of the disparity between our viewpoints. You account the guards/Vaughan with more skill than I do.
Also, body count is the least of my estimation of worthiness, finding quality of opponents, leadership skills, ability to think quickly and react to situations to your advantage (strategize), potential to survive the joining all as part of the equation. And marked the CE accordingly. She does well in 'think on your feet and turn a situation to your advantage" but scores lower in other categories. The Dalish does poorly in leadership, think on your feet and reacting quickly (since he basically gets dragged into the situation out of Tamlen's curiosity), but in quality of enemies (darkspawn) and the ability to survive the taint (however you want to assess the reasons) he scores higher. As i said, the only one I feel gets the best scores in all categories is the dwarven noble. While it may be argued your noble gets played by Bhelen and scores low in 'think on your feet', she has to survive the deep roads and reach Duncan past a butt load of darkspawn with only a dagger and a dirty shift to her name. There is some factor of 'thinking on your feet' to accomplishing that.
As for the casteless, I should have separated them from the Dwarven noble in the Orzammar comment though I thought I specified Duncan was, indeed, looking for recruits at the Proving (just not THAT particular PC--so no 'rumors' to seek out the DC brought him ahead of time). I wasn't arguing that he wasn't looking for recruits in the DC origin, just not THAT recruit. I should have been more clear. Sorry.
The guards of the Kendall's aren't just people that spend every waking day abusing elves, that is something they do in their off time. When they're not doing that, they're doing their job of protecting the arl of the most important city in all of Ferelen. You seem to think they just spend every day going to the alienage and making trouble and not doing anything they're actually paid to do, while I would say that it's something they only rarely do... Maybe "if ever" do. The arl's son doing awful stuff to elves is well known, but I don't think he usually gets the guards in on it. He only could because his father was away at Ostagar, leaving his immature ass to use the guards in a manner they're REALLY not meant to be used it.
I disagree about the city elf significantly failing in any categories except leadership, but you already know that at this point. And no arguments about the dwarf noble, I already said they get a perfect 10.
Oh... Okay. I wasted my time finding that clip then ![=]](https://lvlt.forum.bioware.com/public/style_emoticons/default/sideways.png)
. Oh well 
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For the apology in the last paragraph and the part in the first paragraph about gendered pronouns, I'm giving that last post a like.
Actually I gave the CE high marks in "think on your feet and turn a situation to your advantage", not failing in that capacity. 
In fact, that's the entire reason I think she succeeds so well in her efforts in the estate. The three humans in the dining hall you can drug/poison instead of fight should you choose to do so--and I have at least once. When encountering the first two guards who are to truss your PC up and take you to Vaughan, (immediately following Shianni and the others to be removed) you can distract/lull them into stupidity mode just before Soris slides the blade over to the PC. I'd say the CE pulls off "wit vs brute force" in most of my playthroughs quite ably in fact.
Considering how reluctant Soris is to be there in the first place, and you have to convince him, and how everyone in the situation turns to the PC's judgement, I would reason the CE also gets good marks for leadership as well.
As to the guards skill level, we will just have to agree to disagree on that point, since I still find nothing of worth in the whole lot of them, and none of the dialogues suggest they are anything more than over paid bullies. The level of comfort they exhibit in terrorizing (and striking down an defenseless woman) leads me to believe this is more than an isolated or recent development.
Actually I gave the CE high marks in "think on your feet and turn a situation to your advantage", not failing in that capacity.
Considering how reluctant Soris is to be there in the first place, and you have to convince him, and how everyone in the situation turns to the PC's judgement, I would reason the CE also gets good marks for leadership as well.
I actually headcanon and roleplay that part where Soris shows up really nicely. I always pretend she learned unarmed disarming tactics from her mother, and she was waiting for the opportune moment to steal one of their swords and use it against them. Not to make her out like a complete badass, she knew that she could mess up and get killed... But also knew it was her only choice. So even if he hadn't showed up, she might still have very well handled them herself without help. Maybe. Depends on her luck and skill. But she was planning it regardless. That's why she tries to tell the other girls not to move without her say-so, she was also planning on using them as an extra distraction the moment she disarmed one of them. Though as we know, that part didn't happen since one of them stupidly did move without her say-so and the rest were escorted out right after. That and the Soris thing definitely means some leadership skill. I wasn't trying to say she had no leadership skill, just not "commander" kind of leadership (the type that only the 2 noble characters have). Although all of them eventually gain that kind of leadership too.
Kinda funny how much magic adds to worthiness, huh? No combat experience, no combat training, no leadership skill, no survival skills thanks to being in a safe and sterile tower for years, no significant enemies killed or significant AMOUNT of enemies killed. Even the Dalish one does far more than they do, and they're the most unqualified to me. The mage should be like a 2 (typical soldier is a 3, remember?), but the magic alone jumps them to a 7. One little thing like magic jumps you from an absolute "lolno" score to a rather respectable score. And yeah, I jumped subjects from my last paragraph without warning.
You think anyone else is going to notice this thread ? Seems like it's just us now 
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I think it would certainly have an element of luck to it as well, sure. Certainly if she made a sudden move she was risking the other ladies in the room. My PC would have reasoned there wasn't enough of an opening with the captain and the other two guys with him. With the two lone guys, yea she might have (and that still would have more to do with sneaking a dagger from one guard's belt after she lured him in close enough). Again, wits over brute force. My CE was a rogue, so she didn't have a lot of strength to be overpowering guys, it was more about subtlety and wit.
I kinda like having her using pure feminine wiles to make the guards stupid right before Soris slides the blade over though. To me that was far more fun, 
and adds some element of urgency to it since the other ladies have already been removed from the room and the PC is pressed for time to find and rescue them.
As to others, well, I think people will continue reading as I've gotten a couple of 'likes' in the interim already and I'm enjoying the debate. 
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