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[riverbanks]

Cullen spends the entire mage romance bending over backwards to apologize and condemn himself for everything that he is, has been, might have been, could possibly be in another universe, everything he's ever done in his life, everything he's ever not done too, every breath he takes, his very inexcusable existence in this world. If that's not enough self-flagellation, grovelling and begging at your Inquisitor's feet to satisfy her petty and rancorous need for her significant other to despise himself for the rest of his life for the mistakes of his past and never ever entertain the idea of maybe one day forgiving himself and starting over... perhaps your mage Inky should just romance someone else, and spare both of you the grievance.

[jedidotflow]

I hate him and I wish my Inquisitor would hate him too. Alas, my Inky was pretty sheltered so he's not that cognizant about the details of Kirkwall.

[KaiserShep]

Completely unrelated, Inky is by far the ugliest Inquisitory nickname I have ever seen. 

 

That' why I always have it changed to something else.

[lil yonce]

@congokong; Is it morally correct to forgive Cullen who participated in many morally abhorrent things against mages in Kirkwall? I share your concern as certainly forgiveness on this scale sometimes involves morally inappropriate elements. Too easily forgiving, particularly if the forgiveness is based on denying one's rightful emotions, can in the long run lead to the erosion of one's self-esteem and sense of justice.

 

It should be noted that it is not usually possible to go through the emotional work of forgiveness without some sort of reparation or at least tacit promise from the offender of trying one's best not to repeat the harm and Cullen does provide the later. I can't recall him giving an actual full apology to the mage inquisitor which would be best, however, and sometimes it still doesn't seem that he fully understands, and sometimes it feels like he is trying to justify his actions, but I think it forgiving Cullen can be morally justified if you properly frame the forgiveness (If what we mean by forgiveness does not have to include complete overcoming of anger and resentment), and adhere to an ethics of care that values relationships and relatedness as moral goods. Forgiveness then has moral value and also transformative ability. I read an excellent article on forgiveness by Anea Gheaus earlier this year and here are some concepts I pulled from it to support this argument.

 

Spoiler

"I propose an interpretation of the process of forgiving in which we pursue an "emotional dialectics" between resentment and forgiveness, as we need them both and as it is likely at different times. The ability to feel resentment and to avoid easy denial is most valuable in the first instance. At the same time, overcoming resentment is valuable at a later stage, since we need forgiveness for self-healing and (sometimes) in order to keep relationships. Given that people disagree on moral issues more often that not, the repentance and reparation necessary for fully overcoming resentment are unlikely to come at once. Often it is important for the harmed people to take small leaps of faith in forgiveness, and to allow themselves to oscillate for a while between resenting and forgiving, while engaging in a process of negotiating forgiveness-- the outcome of which can never fully be guaranteed.

 

Once people have experienced injury they care unlikely to return to the phase of enchanted illusions about the all-goodness of those who harmed them. This need not be seen as a pessimistic conclusion, if one believes that relationships can survive and perhaps achieve full maturity in the wake of such disenchantment Is it possible to maintain, or to restore, a loving relationship with somebody whom one sees as partially bad and against one whose deeds one feels some left-over anger or resentment? Are these feelings not too familiar to hate, which is one of the negations of love?

 

I argue for a philosophical approach to forgiveness that heartily relies on the Kleinian assumption that emotional ambivalence may co-exist with moral, and even loving, relationships. According to Melanie Klein's work, the emotionally mature, properly integrated self can stand ambivalence. Love usually wins over hatred, without entirely eliminating it, and this can lead to compassion and the the desire to make appropriate reparation. This conception is less comfortable but more realistic than a conception in which people either get due repentance and reparation and thus find forgiveness acceptable and the restoration of relationships fully compatible with justice, or do not and hence feel morally entitled, or even compelled to abandon relationships. It is a position where the alliance of forgiveness and justice is ambiguous, messy and unstable, but not impossible. If what we mean by forgiveness does not have to include complete overcoming of anger and resentment, and if we think it possible to have relationships with people we believe to be partially (or at times) bad, without a loss of self-esteem and sense of justice, relationships with a history of wrongdoing have more chance of being at some point restored. The hypothesis I advance in this chapter is that a good moment to withhold forgiveness is when one is not sure whether a relationship should continue or stop."

 

By the time my inquisitor and Cullen initiate a relationship, the mages have been allied, the templar order is no more, the seekers have been disbanded, and later Leliana becomes Divine, so a free magi college is established. Justice has been adequately served and the first reparations to mages have been made. In this context forgiving Cullen and entering into a romance is more conceivable than in others. I don't feel, and my inquisitor doesn't feel, that she had to compromise herself or what she believes to engage forgiveness or be with him.

Modifié par lil yonce, 18 avril 2015 - 04:55 .

[thats1evildude]

Well, by the OP's logic, you shouldn't romance Iron Bull either, since he's actively an agent of the Qun, whose oppression of mages makes the Kirkwall Circle look like a love-in.

[berelinde]

It depends. How much is the player meta-gaming?

 

The Inquisitor is told *nothing* about Cullen. He tells the Inquisitor himself about his service under Knight-Commander Meredith, but it's unlikely that the Inquisitor will have heard of him previously. A human mage Inquisitor hails from the Ostwick Circle, but we never learn the name of the Knight-Commander there, let alone the names of any of the Knight-Captains. Do we know the names of any of the Fereldan Knight-Captains? (Yes, two of them, thanks to a Mages' Collective quest.) In short, without meta-game knowledge, Cullen is a complete unknown.

 

The human mage Inquisitor can tell Josephine s/he was romantically involved with an Ostwick templar, so it's up to the player to decide how their mage viewed templars as a group.

 

Am I the only one who finds it ironic that you can pal around with Knight-Captain Rylen of the Starkhaven Circle (which has as bad a reputation as Kirkwall), but I don't hear anybody demanding his blood. Knight-Captain Rylen is in charge of Griffon Wing Keep. He was recruited by Cullen in Kirkwall. If you're curious, the Starkhaven Circle poster boy is Ser Karras, so if you're determined to tar them all with the same brush, you might want to start swinging there.

[lil yonce]

Well, by the OP's logic, you shouldn't romance Iron Bull either, since he's actively an agent of the Qun, whose oppression of mages makes the Kirkwall Circle look like a love-in.

I don't romance Iron Bull for that reason.

[lil yonce]

@berelinde; Learning that he was the Knight-Captain at Kirkwall for the past 10 years is enough to make my inquisitor say, "WTF?" The circles were not so isolated as there were (yearly?) college of enchanters meetings, so whatever horrible things were happening in Kirkwall, I'm sure other circles knew about it. And my inquisitor does not pal around with Rylen. I don't think its meta-gaming to know/judge a few things about Cullen based on the above.

[jtav]

Well considering it's perfectly possible for a mage to be pro-Circle and pro-templar, Cullen's failures were failures of omission he's openly remorseful for, and he treats the Inquisitor with civility, I don't see the problem.

[Phayzon11]

Well this post wasn't what I was expecting.

If my mage inquisitor doesn't romance Cullen, it's not because of his past transgressions. He makes it very clear that he regrets what he did and the man that turned him into. He's abandoned the order and states several times that the Templars have gone too far anymore.

 

If my inquisitor doesn't want to pursue a relationship with Cullen it's because he is a recovering lyrium addict. I mean think about it, mages drink lyrium potions like water half the time. When they kiss, he can taste it. When they hug, he can smell it. How absolutely awful that must be. He's struggling as it is.

[Boomshakalakalakaboom]

Well this post wasn't what I was expecting.
If my mage inquisitor doesn't romance Cullen, it's not because of his past transgressions. He makes it very clear that he regrets what he did and the man that turned him into. He's abandoned the order and states several times that the Templars have gone too far anymore.

If my inquisitor doesn't want to pursue a relationship with Cullen it's because he is a recovering lyrium addict. I mean think about it, mages drink lyrium potions like water half the time. When they kiss, he can taste it. When they hug, he can smell it. How absolutely awful that must be. He's struggling as it is.

Heh, I never thought about that. Well, I'm glad that I romanced him with my rogue.

[Br3admax]

Mages don't drink lyrium potions all the time, so that's not even true. No mage or Chantry could afford that. They're only used in extreme situations because they are hella expensive. 

[Boomshakalakalakaboom]

Mages don't drink lyrium potions all the time, so that's not even true. No mage or Chantry could afford that. They're only used in extreme situations because they are hella expensive.

Well, it's lucky for our Mage Inquisitors that the Inquisition isn't being supplied lyrium bu the chantry but from a deal brokered by Josephine with a merchant so...... Bottoms up!

[Br3admax]

It also turns them into freakish monsters that look like demons. 

 

Immawaitforyoutofindareasontostillusedrugsbecauseyoureterrible.  

[Phayzon11]

Mages don't drink lyrium potions all the time, so that's not even true. No mage or Chantry could afford that. They're only used in extreme situations because they are hella expensive. 

Meh, perhaps they do perhaps they don't. Every mage I've ever played could take that bet. But, I concede, realistically it would be expensive. However the trade is through the chantry and the circles were run by the chantry. Really no need for a mage to actually BUY a potion. Exceptions would be the Inquisition which has it's own trade, and the Grey Wardens. Which also would have their own trade.

There are lots of references to mages consuming a lot of lyrium though. Both to replenish themselves and for their rituals. I would assume that having two different patrons on the docket is what makes the lyrium market so competitive between the mages and templars.

All that aside, the residual effects still validate my argument. Avoiding another drug reference here so... it's kinda like tuna. You eat tuna today, still smell it on you tomorrow. That kind of thing.

[Siha]

@congokong; Is it morally correct to forgive Cullen who participated in many morally abhorrent things against mages in Kirkwall? I share your concern as certainly forgiveness on this scale sometimes involves morally inappropriate elements. Too easily forgiving, particularly if the forgiveness is based on denying one's rightful emotions, can in the long run lead to the erosion of one's self-esteem and sense of justice.

 

It should be noted that it is not usually possible to go through the emotional work of forgiveness without some sort of reparation or at least tacit promise from the offender of trying one's best not to repeat the harm and Cullen does provide the later. I can't recall him giving an actual full apology to the mage inquisitor which would be best, however, and sometimes it still doesn't seem that he fully understands, and sometimes it feels like he is trying to justify his actions, but I think it forgiving Cullen can be morally justified if you properly frame the forgiveness (If what we mean by forgiveness does not have to include complete overcoming of anger and resentment), and adhere to an ethics of care that values relationships and relatedness as moral goods. Forgiveness then has moral value and also transformative ability. I read an excellent article on forgiveness by Anea Gheaus earlier this year and here are some concepts I pulled from it to support this argument.

 

I appreciate you providing support for your argument. However, unfortunately I don't quite understand what your argument is. You say Cullen never directly apologized to the inquisitor, but why would he? There is a woman he's never met before in his life. What reason could he possibly have to apologize? And as was stated before in this thread, Cullen spends an unhealthy amount of time feeling guilty about what he did or did not do in the past.**

 

Moreover you claim the inquisitor diminished herself forgiving him. Why? Based on the above that's nearly ridiculous; she doesn't even know what he did. And even if we ignore this, do people necessarily break only because they support a remorseful who attempts to be a better man? Everybody who sees her own self-esteem lowered for doing that has other mental issues, if you ask me.

 

I am sorry if I misunderstand you. I did notice that you changed your opinion throughout the post and ended with a conditionally affirmative line. Though I find it odd that the inquisitor's choices (e.g. allying with mages/Templars etc.) decide whether or not Cullen's remorse is acceptable. 

 

Anyway, and not directly related to this post, if Cullen were portrayed even more humble and submissive I might not respect him anymore. He's my commander of the troops after all, he needs at least a bit of spine in that position. One can be sorry and a changed person without turning into a pathetic wimp.

 

 

** I personally think he's basically to blame for inactivity. He himself did not actually do anything. He demanded the Warden in DAO to kill the mages, but he was under severe emotional stress and out of his mind. Next, in DA2, he tolerated Meredith's actions too much, which he feels guilty about. So his biggest error was cowardice, and in the Inquisition he tries to not repeat it (quitting lyrium, joining the fight against Samson's men etc.).

Our world has seen many atrocities but it's pretty farfetched to blame the people who know about this but don't actively try to counteract.

And when it mattered, Cullen was the only one who had the guts to stand his ground against her. I bet not many people would dare do that in real life.

 

I do think BW dismissed his past too easily, they don't show us any development. They only show us a scared Cullen in DAO, an embittered Cullen in DA2, and now a  new-and-improved remorseful, friendly Cullen in DAI. How this last change came about should have been addressed and discussed (like he got cutscenes to explain his development in DA2). But this not happening is not Cullen's failing but BW's.

[berelinde]

Well this post wasn't what I was expecting.

If my mage inquisitor doesn't romance Cullen, it's not because of his past transgressions. He makes it very clear that he regrets what he did and the man that turned him into. He's abandoned the order and states several times that the Templars have gone too far anymore.

 

If my inquisitor doesn't want to pursue a relationship with Cullen it's because he is a recovering lyrium addict. I mean think about it, mages drink lyrium potions like water half the time. When they kiss, he can taste it. When they hug, he can smell it. How absolutely awful that must be. He's struggling as it is.

Um... I have played no fewer than 5 mage inquisitors all the way through to the end, and I have yet to have any of them take a lyrium potion.

 

Part of that is because the mana recovery and cooldowns are pretty well balanced, so it's never necessary. Part of it is a role-playing decision because mages are well aware of how addictive (and toxic) lyrium is, and they would rather avoid the health issues.

[Asdrubael Vect]

Cullen never deserve forgiveness and anything from death for what he and kirkwalls templars did..imho i find romance with him as sick for mages and elfs(for dalish especially)..it is the same as for jew to romance gestapo executer.

 

Cullen is not innocent and never was like a Thrask who have a mage daughter and serve to protect and save his daughter and help mages from other templars and those like Cullen and Сullen was the reason why Meredith was success and all normal peoples who was in kirkwall templars was dead because of Cullen

 

 

Cullen and Lelianna/Cassandra with their templars as our forced members of inquisition is one of the worst things in DAI and not respecting of our choices as heroes..they even in keep remore hawke was a enemy of cullen

 

they save Cullen life in DAO save his life in DA2 after all what he was done and make only worst in DAi

 

they would be much better if we have them only if we support Templars and Chantry

[Shechinah]

(to Asdrubael Vect) Please, tell me you don't mean it like the Circles = Concentration camps nonsense because that comparison is terrible in so many ways.

 

Also, "kirkwall temples"?

[KaiserShep]

Cullen never deserve forgiveness and anything from death for what he and kirkwalls templars did..imho i find romance with him as sick for mages and elfs(for dalish especially)..it is the same as for jew to romance gestapo executer.

 

Cullen is not innocent and never was like a Thrask who have a mage daughter and serve to protect and save his daughter and help mages from other templars and those like Cullen and Сullen was the reason why Meredith was success and all normal peoples who was in kirkwall temples was dead because of Cullen

 

 

Cullen and Lelianna/Cassandra with their templars as our forced members of inquisition is one of the worst things in DAI and not respecting of our choices as heroes..they even in keep remore hawke was a enemy of cullen

 

they save Cullen life in DAO save his life in DA2 after all what he was done and make only worst in DAi

 

they would be much better if we have them only if we support Templars and Chantry

 

 

A bit extreme, no?

 

As for Thrask, he was an idiot, and his idiocy did him in. He could have rallied a resistance against Meredith and approached Hawke for help without having to resort to a coercive tactic like kidnapping a family member of lover, which I might have killed him for if given the chance. Instead, he leaves Hawke out of the loop, and nearly gets her killed when encountering some of these rebellious lackeys. He should not have allied with the Starkhaven mages, or any mages at all, and had them sit on the sidelines and leave the responsibility to the Templars alone.

[Killdren88]

Cullen never deserve forgiveness and anything from death for what he and kirkwalls templars did..imho i find romance with him as sick for mages and elfs(for dalish especially)..it is the same as for jew to romance gestapo executer.

 

Cullen is not innocent and never was like a Thrask who have a mage daughter and serve to protect and save his daughter and help mages from other templars and those like Cullen and Сullen was the reason why Meredith was success and all normal peoples who was in kirkwall temples was dead because of Cullen

 

 

Cullen and Lelianna/Cassandra with their templars as our forced members of inquisition is one of the worst things in DAI and not respecting of our choices as heroes..they even in keep remore hawke was a enemy of cullen

 

they save Cullen life in DAO save his life in DA2 after all what he was done and make only worst in DAi

 

they would be much better if we have them only if we support Templars and Chantry

I like this human. They understand,

[In Exile]

On the one hand, there are a lot of nuanced points about power and politics that makes the romance problematic. On the other hand, washboard abs.

[In Exile]

Cullen and Lelianna/Cassandra with their templars as our forced members of inquisition is one of the worst things in DAI and not respecting of our choices as heroes..they even in keep remore hawke was a enemy of cullen

they save Cullen life in DAO save his life in DA2 after all what he was done and make only worst in DAi

they would be much better if we have them only if we support Templars and Chantry

We've been over this in a lot of threads but at the start of DAI you're not an important figure in the Inquisition in the way you seem to think. You're a religious symbol to those who believe in your divinity. That's why you get to walk into the war room instead of waiting outside like the hundreds of other members of the Inquisition.

The leaders, chosen by Justinia to lead an organisation made up exclusively of dedicated and zealous members of the Andrastian Chantry, are Josie, Cullen, Leliana and Cassandra.

After Haven, Cassandra backs away to make room for you. It's implied she was groomed to be Inquisitor by Justinia, which is why she's the one who gives you the speech about you "always leading it" (she's a good sport about it). She backs away because she's not leading a branch of the Inquisition and doesn't want to create dissent.

If you'd play Champions of the Just you'd see a dark hypothetical future where the Inquisitor is replaced by an envy demon. Lots of religious persecution.

To replace Leliana and Cullen - who lead 2/3rds of the Inquisition's forces with handpicked members - you'd have an open civil war.

[Asdrubael Vect]

(to Asdrubael Vect) Please, tell me you don't mean it like the Orlais Chantry Circles = Concentration camps nonsense because that comparison is terrible in so many ways.

 

i mean it and it is true..its a medieval fantasy version of it who is the same by the nature and system...

 

they hunt peoples and mostly if they are young do not kill them and drag them to those camps then they will live the whole life when most of them die there in young ages because of their Templars "care", they are lose all rights and freedoms, they are propagandized as worst living creatures who deserve it, they are oppressed, beaten, raped, killed, tortured and lobotomised and they work there and give Orlais Chantry and templars money and services to continue their dirt job and luxury existence

 

this is a perfect comparison for what it is by everything what was done there for 700 years and elven alianages is a ghettos who is the Orlais Chantry work too 

 

Seekers with Orlais Chantry do all this and we all know that all of this bad stuff was made just because they want to rule and control peoples.. even they admitted this as first Inquisitor, and we all knew what they done and that they lied and only make worst for hundreds years

 

they just not need to do things right and they never care not about mages and especially about nonmages

[Asdrubael Vect]

A bit extreme, no?

 

As for Thrask, he was an idiot, and his idiocy did him in. He could have rallied a resistance against Meredith and approached Hawke for help without having to resort to a coercive tactic like kidnapping a family member of lover, which I might have killed him for if given the chance. Instead, he leaves Hawke out of the loop, and nearly gets her killed when encountering some of these rebellious lackeys. He should not have allied with the Starkhaven mages, or any mages at all, and had them sit on the sidelines and leave the responsibility to the Templars alone.

no, and Trask with others templars did it but Cullen and others with Meredith and Elthina does not give them anything and stop all them even from sending message for Divine herself, there is no other choices left and they was side with Kirkwall nobles and have mages support 

 

the most idiot thing what happen is then those saved mages with rebeled templars and mages for no reason in any result considerate even mage hawke who openly was against Meredith and fight with templars as Meredith suporter and this create this bullsh*t situation with attaking, kidnapping and again atttacking Hawke with Thrask