I wonder how you - and this is a general you - would feel if something happened to Cullen (again) to justify his fears and former views. [snip] would opinions change if Cullen faced being tortured and broken again in DA:I...if his greatest fears were realized (again) if his willingness to love was used to break him (again)?
Nothing can justify the things he believed, and if my inquisitor couldn't get through to him by talking, she'd be done with him.
Cullen is not insensitive about her questioning. He doesn't to take issue with it. If he felt poorly about it I don't think he'd attempt to clarify anything for her. And if one reviews his responses, one knows that he does not mire himself in apology to the extreme as people here believe. His responses are quite basic, they come close to apology only rarely, and sometimes they're even unrelated to the questions asked. I don't start the romance until after Perseverance so only twice do I get any substantial response about the mage/templar aspect of the romance. That's when you first initiate it and at the lake scene (if you press the matter), and in neither of those scenes does Cullen stretch to extreme of mea culpas. I don't know why one would find he has no spine or has debased himself or that the mage!inquisitor somehow wants that or anything lunatic like that.
So why do some believe that? The sense I get is this: a mage!inquisitor questioning a little or even at all as things about his past come up or as he says things that she disagrees with/takes offense at-- that's just off limits to some people. I think they feel that mentioning it once is good enough and then you should move on forever. Someone posted something like "Cullen is one of the good ones" so she shouldn't wonder at all. But it is possible to think someone is overall a good person and yet wonder at parts of them. Reflection is continuous, and there is nothing unhealthy about how its approached in this aspect.
So what does he say in each situation:
Spoiler
The thing is that all of this is open to so much personal interpretation. What you see as valid conversation, I saw as an overbearing need for confirmation, at least when it came to my Mage!IQ. I've played through the Cullen romance in full three times now (one mage and two warriors) and honestly I couldn't stand my Mage!IQ. Some like it, some don't. Some see what I saw in the relationship, and some see what you saw. It's all on how you play it.
Nothing can justify the things he believed, and if my inquisitor couldn't get through to him by talking, she'd be done with him.
A few friends and I have been mulling over trying to address this in some extra-Inquisition (or post Inquisition) fan fiction. I think I'll go for it - see if I can imagine a situation in which Cullen is so torn down and abused that it's easier to imagine that the fears written for the character are very real and have their place.
Enter mage Inquisitor who believes as you do, that nothing can justify the things he believed, and if she can't get through to him by talking, then she'll shred his soul inside him until there's nothing left but a broken husk to be puppeted for some nefarious purpose - otherwise known as finishing the work started on him in DAO.
This ought to be interesting. Poor Cullen. I'd feel bad about this, if not for the fact that he's a wholly fictional character 
Enter mage Inquisitor who believes as you do, that nothing can justify the things he believed, and if she can't get through to him by talking, then she'll shred his soul inside him until there's nothing left but a broken husk to be puppeted for some nefarious purpose - otherwise known as finishing the work started on him in DAO.
Wow, that was dramatic! I would just call it a break up. lol. But I suppose that's you're going for. But no, nothing could ever convince me that this was right to believe and if he insisted on believing it, she'd end it:
I don't see how whether the Inquisitor is a mage factors into it. What went on in Kirkwall was wrong whether the Inquisitor is a mage or not; and whether the Inquisitor is a mage or not, Cullen says explicitly that he didn't find out the worst of what Meredith was doing until after the fact,* and makes it clear that he deeply regrets not taking action sooner. Unless it's somehow OK for a non-mage Inquisitor to think Cullen did nothing wrong, or somehow not OK for a mage Inquisitor to forgive him, it shouldn't make a difference.
* and notably, he didn't find out because she was hiding it from him, because she knew he would object
Did you read the OP? I emphasized that even if he learned about it after the fact he continued to serve, and defend her actions, for many years going forward.
Did you read the OP? I emphasized that even if he learned about it after the fact he continued to serve, and defend her actions, for many years going forward.
And did you read my post? The point it made was that what happened in Kirkwall was wrong no matter whether the Inquisitor is a mage or not, and the implication that non-mages shouldn't care because it didn't affect them as directly is pretty gross to me.
The part you're taking issue with was a side point, but as for "after the fact", between DA:I and his WoT2 entry I'm pretty sure it was implied that he didn't know how bad it had been until he was cleaning up the mess post-DA2. It's obviously a different story if he always found out about these things a few hours/days after they happened and just went "oh, you!" at Meredith, as you're implying.
To reword the original post:
1. Bad things happened and Cullen failed to stop them; if we're policing other people's in-character decisions at all, non-mages "should" be just as disturbed by this as mages "should".
2. By DA:I, he has changed and regrets his past inaction, and even his inaction was only partially his fault; mages "should" be just as free to forgive this without being judged.
Did you read the OP? I emphasized that even if he learned about it after the fact he continued to serve, and defend her actions, for many years going forward.
If anything, the Templars are a military organization. I'm not a soldier, but do they typically just leave if they disagree with their superior's orders?
Besides, we learned that the bulk of the worst stuff Meredith did was kept from him, simply for the fact that she knew he would disapprove.
And did you read my post?
The part you're taking issue with was a side point, but as for "after the fact", between DA:I and his WoT2 entry I'm pretty sure it was implied that he didn't know how bad it had been until he was cleaning up the mess post-DA2. It's obviously a different story if he always found out about these things a few hours/days after they happened and just went "oh, you!" at Meredith, as you're implying.
To reword the original post:
1. Bad things happened and Cullen failed to stop them; if we're policing other people's in-character decisions at all, non-mages "should" be just as disturbed by this as mages "should".
2. By DA:I, he has changed and regrets his past inaction, and even his inaction was only partially his fault; mages "should" be just as free to forgive this without being judged.
I read your post. You're trying to start a side-discussion that I didn't wish to address. But if you insist, sure, non-mages can take offense to his actions as well. Mages would likely take offense even more, especially in regards to romance, because of how it hits closer to home.
And you're not going to convince me that Cullen didn't know about Meredith's travesties until post-DA2. He likely learned about cases like Maddox shortly after bumping into him and noticing he was tranquil; perhaps before.
Uh, Meredith was the one who had Maddox rendered Tranquil, as confirmed by Cullen himself. Cullen also goes on to state she "wielded the brand for far lesser sentences".
I thought we were speaking of Karl. That being said, considering we don't know the entirety of that story, and that has nothing to do with Cullen, I don't see the point. Cullen not wanting to starve is by far one of the dumber reasons not to sleep with someone. "Why didn't Cullen quit and go live on the street with the rest of the refugees," was essentially the point of that statement. I have my doubts that many if anyone in his position would make a different choice.
I don't see what about it is a side discussion. It's implicit in the title of the thread and in your OP that you're only forcing any moral dilemma on mage Inquisitors. The use of "should" also implies that there are right and wrong romance options to pursue with any given PC. I disagree on both counts. Either 9:41 Cullen is a good imaginary person, worthy of imaginary love, or he's not. That's all I've got to say, I guess. *shrug*I read your post. You're trying to start a side-discussion that I didn't wish to address. But if you insist, sure, non-mages can take offense to his actions as well. Mages would likely take offense even more, especially in regards to romance, because of how it hits closer to home.
I don't see what about it is a side discussion. It's implicit in the title of the thread and in your OP that you're only forcing any moral dilemma on mage Inquisitors. The use of "should" also implies that there are right and wrong romance options to pursue with any given PC. I disagree on both counts. Either 9:41 Cullen is a good imaginary person, worthy of imaginary love, or he's not. That's all I've got to say, I guess. *shrug*
You can make your own thread on if anyone should want to romance Cullen if you want. My thread's intention is from the perspective of a mage. You're also over-thinking the semantics of the thread's title.
I thought we were speaking of Karl. That being said, considering we don't know the entirety of that story, and that has nothing to do with Cullen, I don't see the point. Cullen not wanting to starve is by far one of the dumber reasons not to sleep with someone. "Why didn't Cullen quit and go live on the street with the rest of the refugees," was essentially the point of that statement. I have my doubts that many if anyone in his position would make a different choice.
Pretty sure he had more options than starve on Kirkwall's streets or be second-in-command to a tyrant. Off the top of my head he could request being sent to another Circle if he no longer wanted to serve under her.
Guest_Faerunner_*
I'm sure other people could probably find a reason based on their own personal values, their imagined Inqi's worldviews and experiences being compatible with that of Cullen etc.
Personally, I'm not one of those people. I tried to start a romance between him and an Elven Mage Inquisitor of mine many times, but it always just falls short of making me feel comfortable. Even without his involvement with Meredith (which I think a human mage would know about more than a Dalish one), he spent his life dedicated to finding and imprisoning mages. And by Inquisition he still clearly believes in the Order that does so, and clearly supports reinstating Circles. Just short of being a pro-Circle mage like Vivienne, I personally don't see how this won't nag under the surface and become an issue over time.
If a human mage, you yourself were part of the Circles and were familiar enough with Circle/Templar issues and politics to get invited to the Conclave. So, it stands to reason that you know a lot about Circle abuses and corruptions firsthand, and know a great deal about Meredith's infamous reign of terror. As congokong said, it can be hard (depending on your character) to stay with a guy who supported Meredith's reign of mage terror for all those years.
From a Dalish mage perspective, there's the added issues of race, religion, and culture on top of views on magic. To sum up: The Chantry outlaws the Dalish religion, the Chantry and Templars oppress mages, Templars are all human while mages can be elves, and the Andrastian religion/culture is very mage-phobic while the Dalish consider (elven) magic to be an integral part of their heritage and culture. From that perspective (and I know it's not the only one), my Dalish mage had a hard time warming up to a guy who supports a religion that outlawed her own and tries to kidnap and imprison mages like her. And after she warmed up to him, she had a hard time imagining building a future together, since she still wanted her future to involve "elfy" stuff (thank you Sera) and he still loves the Andrastian stuff. What about kids? Biologically, they would appear human.
And you can say all you want about how Cullen's a good guy who became a Templar because he initially wanted to protect mages from non-mages, he was only traumatized by Uldred's demons later and so that stint with Meredith was the PTSD talking, he's largely grown out of his mage paranoia, et cetera et cetera. I've heard that argument many times before and see the merit. Also that good couples can disagree about things or have different worldviews without problem (for example, Aveline's first husband was a Templar while she wasn't very religious, but their common moral ground kept them together), or that they can compromise and talk through their issues (which can also be true, depending on the issue).
It's just... I personally have a hard time imagining my mages doing that. Others who can? Great. It probably won't be any of mine though.
I'm sure other people could probably find a reason based on their own personal values, their imagined Inqi's worldviews and experiences being compatible with that of Cullen etc.
Personally, I'm not one of those people. I tried to start a romance between him and an Elven Mage Inquisitor of mine many times, but it always just falls short of making me feel comfortable. Even without his involvement with Meredith (which I think a human mage would know about more than a Dalish one), he spent his life dedicated to finding and imprisoning mages. And by Inquisition he still clearly believes in the Order that does so, and clearly supports reinstating Circles. Just short of being a pro-Circle mage like Vivienne, I personally don't see how this won't nag under the surface and become an issue over time.
If a human mage, you yourself were part of the Circles and were familiar enough with Circle/Templar issues and politics to get invited to the Conclave. So, it stands to reason that you know a lot about Circle abuses and corruptions firsthand, and know a great deal about Meredith's infamous reign of terror. As congokong said, it can be hard (depending on your character) to stay with a guy who supported Meredith's reign of mage terror for all those years.
From a Dalish mage perspective, there's the added issues of race, religion, and culture on top of views on magic. To sum up: The Chantry outlaws the Dalish religion, the Chantry and Templars oppress mages, Templars are all human while mages can be elves, and the Andrastian religion/culture is very mage-phobic while the Dalish consider (elven) magic to be an integral part of their heritage and culture. From that perspective (and I know it's not the only one), my Dalish mage had a hard time warming up to a guy who supports a religion that outlawed her own and tries to kidnap and imprison mages like her. And after she warmed up to him, she had a hard time imagining building a future together, since she still wanted her future to involve "elfy" stuff (thank you Sera) and he still loves the Andrastian stuff. What about kids? Biologically, they would appear human.
And you can say all you want about how Cullen's a good guy who became a Templar because he initially wanted to protect mages from non-mages, he was only traumatized by Uldred's demons later and so that stint with Meredith was the PTSD talking, he's largely grown out of his mage paranoia, et cetera et cetera. I've heard that argument many times before and see the merit. Also that good couples can disagree about things or have different worldviews without problem (for example, Aveline's first husband was a Templar while she wasn't very religious, but their common moral ground kept them together), or that they can compromise and talk through their issues (which can also be true, depending on the issue).
It's just... I personally have a hard time imagining my mages doing that. Others who can? Great. It probably won't be any of mine though.
I agree with you on most of those points. It takes a special kind of elven mage to make the romance work, and I think the biggest reason is that he barely acknowledges that your quizzie might as well come from a different world. Yeah it doesn't bother him l, but how she has to give up her clan to be with him never comes up. Is all left for the player to headcannon. Don't get me wrong, I still love his romance side story, and did romance him with an elven mage that wasn't so attached to her clan. Overall, is all about what kind of quizzzie you create.
Pretty sure he had more options than starve on Kirkwall's streets or be second-in-command to a tyrant. Off the top of my head he could request being sent to another Circle if he no longer wanted to serve under her.
Being a Templar is like being a clergyman, or being a member of the SEALS, or some exclusive hard-won membership in a prestigious fraternity or social organization. Cullen is a believer. He is an Andrastian, when the tower in Ferelden ran mad (and it DID run mad with 90 PERCENT of the mages I encountered either abominations or blood mages and the other mages DEAD on the floor), everything that he was taught to believe was his purpose was verified. Who was left in that tower that was sane? Wynne and one or two others? Cullen had a first-person, direct experience of just how ugly it can get when mages are demonized, literally. After Origins, he has NO reason to think well of mages. What is amazing is that he doesn't fall in with the abusers and kick mages about.
Is it any wonder it took him so long to stand up to Meredith? First of all, he has to overcome the group think, and if you believe that it is easy to oppose the group, particularly the group to which you have given your allegiance, then I would suggest that your ability to withstand group pressure may never have been tested, at least not at the level of serious consequences that opposing Meredith would have required. Also, as a quasi-military organization, I seriously doubt that Cullen could just say "transfer me" and have it done. Even asking for a transfer would have serious consequences, just ask anyone who is an officer in a military organization, and see what they have to say.
Over and over again various social experiments have shown how incredibly difficult it is to stand alone against former comrades and friends. Just think about the group think of high school cliques. You think it gets any better, later? Deciding to stand up against the status quo is difficult under the best and most liberal of circumstances. In the Circle in Kirkwall, standing against Meredith and her crew could probably get you killed. That he did so at the end was brave.
Finally, I love the holier than thou mages out there who condemn Cullen and cast him forever into the outer darkness but say nothing about the way they were sold out by their own leaders. And how many of the mages in Redcliffe who didn't want to be indentured to Tevinter spoke up and drew a line in the sand the way Cullen did? I spoke to many of them on my way out of town, and so many were unhappy but none left with me or sought to oppose Fiona. Talk about yielding to the group--
As a mage, I can forgive him because as a mage, Maker only knows what compromises, betrayals, secrets and lies I have had to do and say to stay alive and whole in my circle growing up. How many times did I have to go along with the group while there was a nagging thought in the back of my head that maybe what I was doing wasn't the right thing? Cullen and I are both human. We are not gods whatever people may believe, and being human means making mistakes and doing bad things sometimes, things we later regret. We may do them out of ignorance, or fear, or hate, or for selfish gain, or simply because we don't think them through. But as mage, I lived in a glass house. I learned not to throw stones at anyone.
I've made all of my lady mages save for my Lavellan romance Cullen. What *I* know about Cullen cannot apply to what my quizzy knows about Cullen unless I want to meta-game the hell out of it, which kind of ruins immersion. From my inquisitor's perspective, he is a type a A personality with a bit of a past and a sexy scar on his lip. But what she knows about him is only what he cares to reveal. What I know of him is much more from having played all three games multiple times, and even then, knowing that and being ardently pro-mage freedom I don't mind him. I feel he's had a pretty good developmental arc from the events of DAO to DAI. He's grown, changed his opinions on things, and evolved I can't fault the man for that. I personally also don't want to know everything there is to know about my romantic partners. They are allowed to have a past and things that they keep secret, as long as those things aren't next level bad like killing puppies or molesting babies or something.
Wow, that was dramatic! I would just call it a break up. lol. But I suppose that's you're going for. But no, nothing could ever convince me that this was right to believe and if he insisted on believing it, she'd end it:
- “Mages cannot be our friends; they must always be watched.” (Act 1: x)
- “Mages cannot be treated like people. They are not like you and me.” (Act 1: x)
- “I would not have liked her [Meredith] when I was younger. I thought mages deserved a softer touch. But Meredith is never fooled by a sweet face. She always sees the demon behind it.” (Act 1: x)
- [about being a Templar] “It is a losing battle. Every day new mages are born in Thedas. Every day, those born a dozen years ago come into their power. Best we can do is to contain the threat.” (Act 1: x)
- “The Harrowing has served us well enough for centuries. It will be up to mages themselves whether they push us to more stringent measures.” (Act 2: x)
- [when pressed if he supports the ‘Tranquil solution’] ”The Tranquil ritual was created as a mercy so that mages need not be killed out of hand for a threat they might pose. There is an argument to be made for applying it more widely.” (Act 2: x)
- [when asked which side he thinks the Grand Cleric will support] ”She is bound by faith and duty to support the templars. We have dominance over mages by divine right.” (Act 3: x)
- “The Right of Annulment was invoked on the Circle in Ferelden, when I was younger. There, it was justified. Demons overran the whole tower.” (Act 3: x)
- Although he comes to question Meredith herself, there is never any evidence that he doubts or does not support the purpose of the Templars as an organization, and still seems to believe in it as much as he always has. He justifies his doubt of Meredith by treating her acts as separate from the true will of the Order. (Act 3: x)
Thank you for the references. That will certainly help in building a case for Cullen to be punished for his former belief. In truth, it's going to be hard for me to write, because I intend to write the mage character telling Cullen how he should feel and completely ignoring, invalidating, and savaging how he really feels, or rather how he felt in the past. In my thinking, it's a crime on the same order as anything he ever committed or was in which he was complicit.
As for the original post, I believe that if one wants interesting, dramatic fodder for a game story arc, then a gamer playing a mage character might (I just can't bring myself to use the word "should" here - I will never tell a real person how they "should" feel) want to romance Cullen. Personally, I always play mages and have gone for Cullen on each run.
Social construct dictated that a Montague "should" never have romanced a Capulet (Romeo and Juliet) but it sure was a good story, wasn't it? Not your thing? Great. I'll ride that pony and love it.
Should a mage forgive a templar who was as radical as Cullen was? Probably not. If they didn't make him a character you could romance in DA:I and only left him as is in DA:O/DA2, I'd be less forgiving. As much as I felt sorry for him in DA:O, I loathed him in DA2. He ruined people, was willing to tear apart the livelihood of families, and wanted every mage punished without cause.
When Uldred took over the Circle in DAO, Cullen was tortured for days (if not weeks) by demons, including some who took on the form of the mage he had a forbidden attraction to. Given the level of PTSD that sort of experience would bring, it's hardly a wonder that Cullen wasn't entirely reasonable about mages in DA2.
Completely unrelated, Inky is by far the ugliest Inquisitory nickname I have ever seen.
Well it's not like Sera can call you "Bloody" as a pet name, now can she?
Completely unrelated, Inky is by far the ugliest Inquisitory nickname I have ever seen.
I couldn't agree more, and that scares me, but there it is.
"Inky" is an abomination best left to the cesspit that is Kirkwall.
When Uldred took over the Circle in DAO, Cullen was tortured for days (if not weeks) by demons, including some who took on the form of the mage he had a forbidden attraction to. Given the level of PTSD that sort of experience would bring, it's hardly a wonder that Cullen wasn't entirely reasonable about mages in DA2.
I know. Not entirely unreasonable but it's still not enough to justify everything he did for Meredith.
I always say I wish I could properly eradicate the Templar order and give ex-templars the rehabilitation they need and have the option to join as part of the guard/army of the Inquisitor if they're still fit to serve (if they wish). From the lyrium addiction to PTSD to their treatment of mages. I'm a big advocate of rehabilitation and therapy for them just like with Cullen. I feel like his desire to atone for the things he's done is his form of rehabilitation and it's admirable.
@Faerunner; Cullen's traditionalism vs. mage!inquisitor's liberalism-- Its definitely an issue for my inquisitor. She did not agree to disagree nor compromise on new restrictions or on the circle or anything else about mages, and expects continual discussion about it until they either work it out or determine that their views can't be resolved and break up. Also, part of my inquisitor will always resent Cullen's past actions and beliefs no matter how distant they become in time. So part of her will always resent him.There is no making that disappear. And I think that's fine. I think its far healthier than denying her anger to be with him, and its more realistic than not being with him at all. I've adopted the philosophical view that the emotionally mature, properly integrated self can stand ambivalence. The theory goes that love usually wins over hatred, without entirely eliminating it, and actually in this way justified anger/resentment is good for a relationship. The hope is that Cullen, aware of her feelings, will one day fully understand and come to a complete change in belief and then make proper reparations to mages. And I think there is fair space to hope for that. DAI isn't very far removed from DA2 so there is a reasonable time frame left for Cullen to assess and work out what he now thinks. The faith part is trickier but I'd handle it the same way. And I think the Chantry is far more tolerant under Leliana if you go that route. But human looking kids-- that just may be a deal breaker for an elf. Does that model change your view on romancing him at all?
But human looking kids-- that just may be a deal breaker for an elf.
Why should it matter........... You know what? I can't even wrap my head around this.
I know. Not entirely unreasonable but it's still not enough to justify everything he did for Meredith.
Don't forget that Kirkwall had a ridiculously high rate of Blood Mages and demons.
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