60 réponses à ce sujet

[Killdren88]

Simply looking over things about the Golden City and what Cory said about it already being black...Talked about to death I'm sure, but nonetheless. I have to ask..

 

If the Golden City was already black, and by opening it, unleashing the taint which created the Darkspawn, I must ask. The following..

 

Was the Black City a Prison? And if so what was it containing? The Maker? Elven Gods? Some Demon? Something worse than a Demon? The Taint itself?

 

If it was in fact the taint itself, another question arises. Is the taint Sentient? Can think? And act on its own? Or did the taint come from a whole other entity? Like the Taint is some alien by product of an even great monster yet to be shown.

[Steelcan]

its Arlathan

[Killdren88]

its Arlathan

 

What makes you say that?

[CroGamer002]

OP is a heretic!

 

 

Seriously though, it would be interesting if Black City was actually a prison. Perhaps where all Elven gods were forced into. Though where would the Maker be then?

[Steelcan]

What makes you say that?

lots of reasons that have been explained in other threads more extensively, but to summarize

 

-We know the Ancient Elves had creations in the Fade and "near it"

-The Blight comes from the Black City

-The Eluvians connect to such places such as the Crossroads, it would be logical they also connect to Arlathan

-We have seen an Eluvian spewing the Blight, three guesses where it connects to before Merrill messes with it.

[Killdren88]

lots of reasons that have been explained in other threads more extensively, but to summarize

 

-We know the Ancient Elves had creations in the Fade and "near it"

-The Blight comes from the Black City

-The Eluvians connect to such places such as the Crossroads, it would be logical they also connect to Arlathan

-We have seen an Eluvian spewing the Blight, three guesses where it connects to before Merrill messes with it.

 

Everything seems to tie back to the elves doesn't it? Seems like When the elves knew that they were gonna loose, they rigged all of their magic and devices to go haywire as devastating retribution towards the humans. I really don't know... like the Taint was some magical Bio weapon they hadn't unleashed yet, but left it in Arlathan so the Humans would get infected by it.

 

Then again if that is the case imagine the backlash if its discovered that the Elves created the taint?

 

But no personally? I think the Elves deserve a break from the story seeing the exposure they were given. Personally for me I hope it was a Prison containing something. And its influence was strong enough to draw the Magisters to it. so it could be free.

[Steelcan]

I doubt the elves left it there for humans to damn themselves with, its a very convoluted plan, more likely it was contained to Arlathan following the war between the Elven deities

[Killdren88]

So the Elves maybe Sunk Arlathan themselves so it wouldn't spread to the rest of Thedas?

[Jaison1986]

This video covers up the theory in wich I believe is what happened with Arlathan and how it came to be the black city. It's kind of long.

 

[jedidotflow]

Fen'Harel trapped the rest of the gods in Arlathan. He probably used a combination of the Orb of Destruction and the power of the Void (Blight) that Andruil brought back. This is why Arlathan became tainted as the Black City once it was locked in the Fade.

[Killdren88]

Fen'Harel trapped the rest of the gods in Arlathan. He probably used a combination of the Orb of Destruction and the power of the Void (Blight) that Andruil brought back. This is why Arlathan became tainted as the Black City once it was locked in the Fade.

 

Ah, right void. The Dragon Age Hell so to speak...so their is also a Theory the Taint comes from there then?

[General TSAR]

I think the Black City is like Anor Londo, a disguise to hide fading glory or glory that was never there. 

[jedidotflow]

Seems like the Blight does come from the Void. But that's just fun speculation.

I love the twists that the lore took in this game.

[Reznore57]

Well I would bet money the Golden city is related to the elves somehow.

First their story says their gods are locked up in the "Eternal city" in the beyond.

Unless there's another city in the fade Golden city= Eternal city.

Second there's broken eluvian in the fade in Here Lies the Abyss , and the OGB use an Eluvian to walk the Fade , and Flemeth (old elven God) is also walking the Fade.(we don't know exactly how she got there).

 

So at least the elven gods could walk the Fade , and their Eluvian system was also linked to the fade.Now it's possible only the "Gods" were allowed to go there in the flesh.

We know the old elves also build a whole realm made out of the Fade and Thedas , so it's not a strech to think they could build a city in the Fade.

Also the elves did like gold a lot , their old temples were covered in gold.

Now the question is what was the purpose of this city exactly?

And well why did it end up with something funny inside?

 

The Blight inside the Golden City is different somehow.The magisters suffered a whole different level of corruption than ghouls for example.

If some old elven gods are locked in there , well it seems they had the Blight.

[Killdren88]

It just seem just a bit lazy IMO for everything to come from the elves or elven gods. I realize That entire area of the world was a whole elven civilization and as a result we are more than likely going to come across more things of eleven origin. But surly there were other parties beyond just elves back in the ancient age. So yeah I'm hoping the Black City is something else other than elven. But the compromise I'd be willing to make is that the black city is in fact a prison of elven origin meant to contain something the elves discovered and were.. lack of a better word scared ****less of and sealed it in the black city. And whatever was sealed b
Within managed to reach out to the Magisters either through Dumat or posing as Dumat.

[Jaison1986]

It just seem just a bit lazy IMO for everything to come from the elves or elven gods. I realize That entire area of the world was a whole elven civilization and as a result we are more than likely going to come across more things of eleven origin. But surly there were other parties beyond just elves back in the ancient age. So yeah I'm hoping the Black City is something else other than elven. But the compromise I'd be willing to make is that the black city is in fact a prison of elven origin meant to contain something the elves discovered and were.. lack of a better word scared ****less of and sealed it in the black city. And whatever was sealed b
Within managed to reach out to the Magisters either through Dumat or posing as Dumat.

 

It's not lazy, it's only logical. Back in those times, the humans were savages in the dawn of the their first civilization. If we are to believe speculations, the qunari are some sort of genetic experiment. The only ones with any level of advancement were the dwarfs, and they were aways hidden in their deep roads.

[Reznore57]

It just seem just a bit lazy IMO for everything to come from the elves or elven gods. I realize That entire area of the world was a whole elven civilization and as a result we are more than likely going to come across more things of eleven origin. But surly there were other parties beyond just elves back in the ancient age. So yeah I'm hoping the Black City is something else other than elven. But the compromise I'd be willing to make is that the black city is in fact a prison of elven origin meant to contain something the elves discovered and were.. lack of a better word scared ****less of and sealed it in the black city. And whatever was sealed b
Within managed to reach out to the Magisters either through Dumat or posing as Dumat.

 

Like Jaison1986 says , the humans build their first civilized empire on old elven ruins.

On a magical level , no one managed to get as good as the elves.

We knew the elves were way better when it comes to the Fade , and most of the Chantry teachings turned the whole place into some kind of taboo.

 

But even if the ancient elven gods build the Golden city , clearly for all their great powers they didn't manage to get rid of the Blight.

 

There's still the dwarves and the talk of titans.

We still don't know what was exactly going on in the old thaig in DA2 with the red lyrium idol.

Besides Flemythal said the "world was betrayed" so there's some piece missing here.

[ctd757]

Titans

[Bad King]

Simply looking over things about the Golden City and what Cory said about it already being black...Talked about to death I'm sure, but nonetheless. I have to ask..

 

If the Golden City was already black, and by opening it, unleashing the taint which created the Darkspawn, I must ask. The following..

 

Was the Black City a Prison? And if so what was it containing? The Maker? Elven Gods? Some Demon? Something worse than a Demon? The Taint itself?

 

If it was in fact the taint itself, another question arises. Is the taint Sentient? Can think? And act on its own? Or did the taint come from a whole other entity? Like the Taint is some alien by product of an even great monster yet to be shown.

 

Corypheus's words in DA2 suggest that the Black City was 'supposed to be golden' suggesting that it appeared golden to them before they entered it (whereas in DA:O and DA:I it is quite clearly black when we see it in the fade). Nevertheless, when they entered, it was apparently already corrupted, therefore it wasn't the source of the taint but was tainted just before the Magisters' arrival there. If not by the magisters themselves, how was it corrupted? My take:

 

I believe that the taint is linked to the Forgotten Ones of elven religion. Both elven religion and the Nevarran cult of 'the Empty Ones' report that the blight originates from 'the Void' in which Andruil is supposed to have hunted the Forgotten Ones and was temporarily driven insane by tainted armour (perhaps like Samson's red lyrium armour). So the taint likely comes from the Void and not Arlathan/the Golden City.

 

I believe that the Void is linked to the Primeval Thaig in which we find evidence of the taint predating the magisters' arrival in the black city - the red lyrium idol. My belief is that the Forgotten Ones that dwell in the Void are the ones who created red lyrium, who tainted the golden city and who drive the darkspawn to taint their old enemies the Old Gods (who are likely linked to the elven creators: the antithesis of the Forgotten Ones) so that they can strike against the creators from the Void. It was not Dumat who sent Corypheus and the others into the Black City but the Forgotten Ones: they tainted the Golden City and sent the Magisters there to contract the taint and bring it back to the surface of the material world - they tricked Corypheus et al into doing this by posing as the Old Gods that they worshipped. Here's the evidence:

 

Corypheus's 'altar':

 

Spoiler

 

Primeval Thaig statues:

 

Spoiler

 

So in my view, it's probable that Corypheus's altar was the product of the Forgotten Ones who are the architects of the taint and gods of the denizens of the Primeval Thaig. The Forgotten Ones used this altar to whisper to Corypheus in his dreams and encouraged him and his fellows to enter the newly tainted Black City. Meanwhile, Dumat was busy hibernating and had nothing to do with influencing Corypheus: he and his fellow Old Gods are merely the victims of the taint and not its masters - their 'song' is more likely the song of the Forgotten Ones used to guide the darkspawn towards the Old Gods (who were either pets of the creators or the creators themselves).

[In Exile]

lots of reasons that have been explained in other threads more extensively, but to summarize
 
-We know the Ancient Elves had creations in the Fade and "near it"
-The Blight comes from the Black City
-The Eluvians connect to such places such as the Crossroads, it would be logical they also connect to Arlathan
-We have seen an Eluvian spewing the Blight, three guesses where it connects to before Merrill messes with it.

I agree with the conclusion but not the analysis. I think the situation is a little different:

1. The Fade (or what we understand as the Fade) is Arlathan. The Black City is just a particular place in it.
A. We know the elves can create pocket dimensions. This is the crossroad.
B. The Crossroad has physical things in it. The elves had to get those in there somehow.
C. The Fade is made up entirely of floating platforms that have Tevinter looking ruins in them.
I. We assume the architectural style of Tevinter is its own creation but that need not be true.
II. I propose these ruins are actually from Elvhenan.
D. Solas tells us all of Elvhenan was made up of floating cities. Corypheus uses the orb - an elven foci - to raise the temple
Conclusion: The elves created a realm like the a Crossroads to serve as a capital.
2. What we understand as the modern Fade was a byproduct of something Solas did to create the Veil. Basically he locked away a huge portion of supernatural stuff in an easily accessible pocket dimension and then locked it away. The Veil is the barrier be created.
A. The foci Corypheus used belogs to Solas. It is part of his power.
B. It is described as a key to the Fade, but look at what it does: manipulate the Veil.
C. Our crowning moment of awesome IS to recreate the Veil - that's what we do when we close the breach.
3. The Blight - a thing of origins unknown - was locked away in a part of this realm.

[Statare]

I'm also of the opinion that the Veil is probably an Elven construct, I also believe Arlathan is possibly the Black/Eternal City. I also am thinking the Blight was contained by someone in the Eternal City. I'm also of mind to believe Solas involved. Yet, there are a few things that don't sit right that maybe one of you could assuage.

 

First is the god Falon'Din and the concept of Uthenera. Largely, these two things are rooted in the division between the Fade and Thedas, and the mysteriousness of the Fade as the place of death for an "immortal" race. Falon'Din was said to be the only God who could go there, and his drive to amass followers led him to kill many, many elves (presumably because as the God of the Dead, the souls of the dead were within his sphere of influence). Maybe we are missing important details, but if Solas created the Veil, dividing Thedas from the Fade/Beyond, why would Falon'Din be represented as he was (even in DAI) and why/how could Uthenera be a thing where Elves left their physical bodies to bum around the Fade for a while?

 

Next is Mythal. Flemythal says that she was betrayed as the world was betrayed. Abelas says our favorite goddess in the body of an old hag was killed. As the Fade and death are linked, and as the story of Flemeth involves an entity from the Fade, and Flemeth was probably gifted with magic before joining with Mythal, what constitutes death for a God is a severance from the physical world and being unable to bridge the physical/non-corporeal schism by normal means. To me that means that the betrayal Mythal experienced, that was akin to a betrayal of the world, had to do with a fall, a death, a sundering. Sounds a bit like the Veil being thrown up to separate a recently killed Mythal from the physical plane, and as we know the Dread Wolf was not responsible, this makes me think Solas was not involved.

 

Thirdly, Solas and Mythal's daughter Yavana seem anti-Veil. Solas speaks of the Veil as the apparatus by which Fade entities and mortals are doomed to misunderstand and destroy one another. Yavana speaks longingly of the time before the Veil when dragons ruled the skies. As Solas and Mythal do not seem to be enemies, but rather working alongside one another (until one of them decides their goals are more important), I don't know if I can get behind Solas simply regrets the creation of the Veil.

 

Next is Solas and Corypheus. Presumably, if Solas created the Veil as an apparatus to imprison (possibly tainted) elven gods, why would he "give" his orb with the potential to breach the Eternal City to one of the Magisters? Solas knows a lot for having slept for thousand(s) of years. Presumably he would be aware of who tried to break into his little prison before, and would not give a powerful object to such an entity unless he was unaware of the properties of the Blight (then how would the Eternal City be a place to lock away the Blight as designed by Solas?), Corypheus hid his tainted nature (seems like it would be hard to trick an immortal entity who is possibly paranoid of the dangers of the Blight), or Solas knew Corypheus was tainted, and thus had tried to breach the Eternal City, and wanted him to try again. Sounds a little dangerous to let a prideful Magister have your key to the prison you designed that said Magister tried to break into once before, unless you're extremely confident, or you want them to do just that.

 

On a related note is Solas and the Wardens. Solas seems to not like the Wardens much. He especially does not like the Wardens plans to kill the Old Gods. He believes the Wardens to be toying with things they barely understand. No where does he seem to be affraid of the Blight. In fact, he seems unfazed by Red Lyrium throughout the entire game, and if the Blight had really been why he imprisoned his peers in the Eternal City, would he not be mortified of the Blights prevalence in Thedas? Solas even explicitly states there is no "known" link between the Old Gods and the Pantheon. If the Blight was somehow plaguing the Pantheon, and had corrupted Old Gods causing Blights since the fall of Arlathan, would that not be a link? Another thing, Nightmare, an entity that feeds off the fear of the Blight knows Solas. Why? I also feel like it's too much of a coincidence that an entity that feeds on the fear of the Blight would use the word "banal" which is a root of the word for the Blight in Elvish (banalhan) and Solas would also use it. Maybe that is a stretch.

 

Finally is the Eluvian from the Dalish Origin in DAO. As of DAI we have seen waaaaay too many Eluvians. All of them have been dormant and needing of a key of some form to open. Except that first one. It was activated and spewing out the Taint. Now, there is no way to know, but as the Brecilian Forest is not readily known as a place to encounter Blighted creatures or the Darkspawn, it seems likely that Eluvian activated relatively recently. Also, what Tamlen sees in the mirror is probably the Black/Eternal City. If said place is a prison, and someone activated an Eluvian leading there... who? Why? I don't think it would be Flemythal as she seems pretty anti-Blight corruption and admits the Blight would consume her as well in DA:O.

 

Maybe I am over thinking things, but I feel like these things don't sit well with the whole Fen'Harel was the heroic bro man who sealed away corrupted gods from destroying the world by creating the Veil. 

[In Exile]

Let me say at the outset that there's an important difference between Solas thinking that his peers were monstrous and taking actions to strip away their power (which maybe created the Veil) and it actually being a Good Thing ™. In the post-game with Cole, Solas described his path as worse than villainous.

You're taking too much Dalish posts facto lore for granted. The Dalish have some vague recollections regarding what their "gods" were from who knows what source. Their beliefs about their own immortality are clearly wrong - humans aren't plague bearing rats that took it away by existing next to them, for example - so I wouldn't watch that lore so closely.

The Uthenara bit may actually be about preservation. We know Solas "slept" for a time. We know it led to him being weak. We know he was "in" the Fade for some time. Perhaps the truly powerful elven gods were dreamers who had some means of separating their soul from their body, letting their bodies rejuvenate in some fashion while they roamed the world (but now for whatever reason they're stuck to the Fade).

I don't know why you assume the Fade and death are actually tied, on that note. Lots of belief systems tie them together but we've seen no proof.

As to Flemythal, all we have is her rhetoric. Just how she died is pure speculation, and I wouldn't put any thought into it any more than in her telling Hawke to roll with it.

As to the Veil, well, don't assume it was some great objective good. Whatever Solas did he did because he thought it was worth the cost THEN. He never portrayed himself as a hero - at most his lamentations over his past imply he did what he thought would help and had it catastrophically blow up in his face. That he created it doesn't mean it was necessarily a good thing.

As to Corypheus, here you have to remember that Solas is both an unabashed and unapologetic racist and an incredibly arrogant person. On the (reasonable) assumption he was approach by Larius/Janeka, he likely assumed Corypheus could neither unlock the true power of his foci nor that he would survive a release of its power if it came to that point. Solas underestimating non-ancient elves is something he does without fail or pause the entire game.

As to the Wardens and Nightmare I think you're conflating a few things. The nightmare reads minds. It doesn't need to know Solas. It knows everyone in your party. Solas never denies the danger of the blight - he thinks the Wardens are idiots. As I recall all he really suggests is that killing the ADs may not end the blight.

[Red of Rivia]

Many mysteries.

Taking into account the comics, there was a time that FADE does not ecxiste and dragons ruled the world. Remembering that Yavanna wanted to bring a type of dragon back, suppose to have intelligence, like the old gods. Then this may be evidence that the FADE was created and is not something '' natural '' in the world of Dragon Age. 

[Lethaya]

Actually, that's incorrect, I think. There was a time when the Veil did not exist, or the barrier between the physical world and the Fade. Some quotes on that (quotes that I've posted a million times on this forum already, ahahah, oh god, sorry):

 

Yavana (comics!): Your heart beats with the old blood, as well. Where do you think it comes from? It sings of a time when dragons ruled the skies. A time before the Veil, before the mysteries were forgotten. Can you hear it?

 

Solas: Imagine if spirits were not a rarity but a part of our natural world like... a fast-flowing river. Yes, it can drown careless children, but it can also carry a merchant's goods or grind a miller's flour. That is what the world could be if the Veil were not present. For better or worse.

Solas: Imagine if spirits entered freely, if the Fade was not a place one went but a state of nature like the wind. A world where imagination defines reality, where spirits are as common as trees or grass.

 

There are a lot of possibilities!

 

I've yet to settle on a theory, and this is all really just spit balling at this point, really, but my favorites... I definitely like the idea that the Black City was once Arlathan. It could even explain why dreamers saw it as Golden for so long even after it had fallen or been sealed away by the Veil - they experienced memories, or dreams of what it once was, rather than seeing the actual twisted truth of it. And if anyone could have built a city in or connected to the Fade, it'd be the Elvhen. Just look at what they achieved with the Crossroads.

 

As for how it relates to the Blights.... well, we know the Elves created some ah. Crazy level weaponry. The orbs, the atom bomb type deal Andruil had according to that one codex entry... I wouldn't be surprised if either they or the Forgotten Ones created red lyrium or the Blight, whichever came first, to try and destroy their opposition. I mean, some of the elven murals you find around DA:I seemed rather red lyrium inspired to me?

 

If that was the case, it probably got out of hand, as we've seen it do, and maybe that was Solas's cue to step in and seal away the (infected?) Pantheon in order to save what was left. Perhaps only Arlathan was directly exposed, similar to Kirkwall after DA2? Ultimately, though, cutting the world off from the Fade was apparently, ah. Not so good in retrospect, hence his regret.

 

Then you run into why the Old Gods wanted their High priests to enter the city so badly, though. Did they want to unleash the Blight, and if so, why? Sooo many questions.

 

The Fade (or what we understand as the Fade) is Arlathan. The Black City is just a particular place in it.

 

One thing, here. I thought the elven kingdom was... Elvhenan I think? Arlathan was its capitol, so it'd make sense that the Golden/Black City is what remains of Arlathan.

 

As for the Fade, I think it's a bit more than that. Referring back to Solas's quotes above, something more... elemental, a force of nature. The source of magic itself, perhaps? The elves just knew how to utilize it best, probably because, well, no Veil.

[Red of Rivia]

I interpreted otherwise, I'm probably wrong. Would sound more interesting if the Fade was created and this ''old world'' was more... palpable. From what you said, in a way, there was no barrier between the two worlds, so spirits everywhere.(Korra?) Considering Jaws of Hakkon, we can think in a scenario where dragons fit.