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[In Exile]

Actually, that's incorrect, I think. There was a time when the Veil did not exist, or the barrier between the physical world and the Fade. Some quotes on that (quotes that I've posted a million times on this forum already, ahahah, oh god, sorry):

Yavana (comics!): Your heart beats with the old blood, as well. Where do you think it comes from? It sings of a time when dragons ruled the skies. A time before the Veil, before the mysteries were forgotten. Can you hear it?


Solas: Imagine if spirits were not a rarity but a part of our natural world like... a fast-flowing river. Yes, it can drown careless children, but it can also carry a merchant's goods or grind a miller's flour. That is what the world could be if the Veil were not present. For better or worse.Solas: Imagine if spirits entered freely, if the Fade was not a place one went but a state of nature like the wind. A world where imagination defines reality, where spirits are as common as trees or grass.

There are a lot of possibilities!

I've yet to settle on a theory, and this is all really just spit balling at this point, really, but my favorites... I definitely like the idea that the Black City was once Arlathan. It could even explain why dreamers saw it as Golden for so long even after it had fallen or been sealed away by the Veil - they experienced memories, or dreams of what it once was, rather than seeing the actual twisted truth of it. And if anyone could have built a city in or connected to the Fade, it'd be the Elvhen. Just look at what they achieved with the Crossroads.

As for how it relates to the Blights.... well, we know the Elves created some ah. Crazy level weaponry. The orbs, the atom bomb type deal Andruil had according to that one codex entry... I wouldn't be surprised if either they or the Forgotten Ones created red lyrium or the Blight, whichever came first, to try and destroy their opposition. I mean, some of the elven murals you find around DA:I seemed rather red lyrium inspired to me?

If that was the case, it probably got out of hand, as we've seen it do, and maybe that was Solas's cue to step in and seal away the (infected?) Pantheon in order to save what was left. Perhaps only Arlathan was directly exposed, similar to Kirkwall after DA2? Ultimately, though, cutting the world off from the Fade was apparently, ah. Not so good in retrospect, hence his regret.



Then you run into why the Old Gods wanted their High priests to enter the city so badly, though. Did they want to unleash the Blight, and if so, why? Sooo many questions.



One thing, here. I thought the elven kingdom was... Elvhenan I think? Arlathan was its capitol, so it'd make sense that the Golden/Black City is what remains of Arlathan.

As for the Fade, I think it's a bit more than that. Referring back to Solas's quotes above, something more... elemental, a force of nature. The source of magic itself, perhaps? The elves just knew how to utilize it best, probably because, well, no Veil.

You misunderstand me. I'm saying the entire space we recognize as the "Fade" was Arlathan. To use America as an example, Washington D.C. is more than just the White House. I think the Black City is to Arlathan, Elvhenan what the White House is to Washington D.C., USA. It is a part of it that survives intact. The remainder of the Fade we see - the floating chunks of land - are the ruins of the city. Much like how the devastated floating chunks we see at the final battle are the remains of the temple of sacred ashes.

There's further proof for this idea. When you play In Hushes Whispers and you go outside to see the expanded Breach ... there are floating husks of land in the sky, and everything has the green hue of the Fade. That's because the Fade is bleeding into reality.

[Lethaya]

Ahhh, I understand more then, thanks for the explanation! That is certainly interesting. And new, I haven't come across that idea before. Food for thought, definitely.

[Koneko Koji]

Then you run into why the Old Gods wanted their High priests to enter the city so badly, though. Did they want to unleash the Blight, and if so, why? Sooo many questions.

 

 

If you were to assume that the Old Gods were actually the spirits of the Elvhen gods inhabiting new bodies (like Flemmeth - who can appear as a dragon too), then it would make perfect sense for them to send their High Priests to their prison to break their real bodies out.

But instead of succeeding, they too were infected and turned into Darkspawn.

[Lethaya]

That's one of the big theories, isn't it? The fun ones, anyways. But if the Old Gods were actually the Forgotten Ones, what then? And there was something that got me, I think from the World of Thedas books, lemme see...

 

"Open the gates.

And when you stand before me,

I shall give you designs

That shall rival the greatness of heaven.

I will make you First among the new gods,

And you will build a paradise on earth."

 

What Urthemiel told his priest according to the Canticle of Silence.

 

Were these designs the Blight? Is the current form of the Magisters this new godhood he mentioned? And would that make a blighted world their version of a paradise on earth? If so... creepy. Although, if they're blighted themselves, I suppose that'd alter their worldview a bit. Bias, I say!

[Aulis Vaara]

The Chant says that when the Magisters opened the Black City there was a river of light before them. Corypheus also says there was a Golden light.

Where did it go? What did they let out? Not the Blight, that was still there and they embraced it themselves.

Also, we should have ****** gone there. Big bad that has been there and wants to go back, protagonist who can go there, so why the **** didn't we?

[LOLandStuff]

Because you don't know where it is.

You can see the Black City from everywhere but you don't know how to get there. The Fade changes constantly.

Unless there are some special coordinates to get there, then you better start searching. Too bad for you Corypheus ends up dead before extracting that info from him.

 

Who knows how Corypheus and Co. managed that. They were hearing voices after all.

[Bad King]

 

Then you run into why the Old Gods wanted their High priests to enter the city so badly, though. Did they want to unleash the Blight, and if so, why? Sooo many questions.

 

 

If you were to assume that the Old Gods were actually the spirits of the Elvhen gods inhabiting new bodies (like Flemmeth - who can appear as a dragon too), then it would make perfect sense for them to send their High Priests to their prison to break their real bodies out.

But instead of succeeding, they too were infected and turned into Darkspawn.

 

 

Maybe it wasn't the Old Gods who actually commanded them to enter the city. If we look at what we know:

 

1). Morrigan suggests that Corypheus infusing his soul in a dragon was a vain action as it was an attempt to replicate the 'gods of old'. Cassandra also wonders (in one dialogue with Solas) whether the Archdemons were once simply pets to beings that no longer exist. To me, this all seems to be deliberate foreshadowing: that the Old Gods were simply powerful dragons serving the creators and infused with their power. DA:Inquisition implies that there were eight Old Gods, one for each creator (excluding Solas) and if you look at the concepts that the Old Gods and creators embody, there is an equivalence. If the Old Gods are merely hibernating dragon pets, it seems unlikely to me that they would be capable of influencing powerful surfacers so easily but if they could do this, why haven't they done it more recently and, for instance, influence the current Magisters of Tevinter into worshipping them and doing their bidding?

 

2). If the Old Gods weren't the ones who influenced Corypheus and the others, then I think that the Forgotten Ones may have posed as the Old Gods and, using the Claw of Dumat statue discovered by Corypheus (and also seen in the Primeval Thaig) as a beacon, influenced the Magisters into entering the Golden City (already blackened) in order to bring the taint into the world which could be the tool that they're using to destroy the world, perhaps with the intention of rebirthing it or ending all suffering a la the Order of Fiery Promise and the Empty Ones respectively.

[Ranadiel Marius]

The Chant says that when the Magisters opened the Black City there was a river of light before them. Corypheus also says there was a Golden light.

When does Cory mention a golden light? I remember he mentions that he walked the golden halls when you meet in Haven, but I'm drawing a blank regarding him mentioning a golden light.

To me, this all seems to be deliberate foreshadowing: that the Old Gods were simply powerful dragons serving the creators and infused with their power. DA:Inquisition implies that there were eight Old Gods, one for each creator (excluding Solas) and if you look at the concepts that the Old Gods and creators embody, there is an equivalence.

Hurray, I'm not the only one who thinks the Old Gods are dragons imbued with a portion of the Elvish Gods power. Although I would take it a step further and say that it wasn't just a portion of their power, but a portion of their soul. And portion of a god's soul is how a whisp of Mythal's soul survived the ages to make it to Flemeth despite Mythal being murdered.

[Jaison1986]

Jaws of Hakkon says great dragons are high dragons possessed by powerful spirits. Anyone noticed how after you slay the dragon, the spirit inside it flies off? It does look similar to the archdemon death, difference is, one is tied to the taint. So maybe the old gods are high dragons with the soul of an elven god inside them. Maybe that soul inside them is what gives them the power to control darkspawn once they are tainted.

[Bad King]

Yeah, it could definitely be the case that the Old Gods have part of an elven god's soul within them: it would explain why Solas is so angry with the Grey Wardens for attempting to seek them out and kill them off. It's my belief that the Old Gods are simply victims of the taint rather than its masters and thus killing them wouldn't end the darkspawn threat (who I believe are controlled by the Forgotten Ones).

[In Exile]

 

Then you run into why the Old Gods wanted their High priests to enter the city so badly, though. Did they want to unleash the Blight, and if so, why? Sooo many questions.

 

 

If you were to assume that the Old Gods were actually the spirits of the Elvhen gods inhabiting new bodies (like Flemmeth - who can appear as a dragon too), then it would make perfect sense for them to send their High Priests to their prison to break their real bodies out.

But instead of succeeding, they too were infected and turned into Darkspawn.

 

 

They might just suck at their plans. Ignoring the possible connection to elvhen "gods" (but if they are connected, I'd say their dragon froms are their real bodies; like Morrigan had her real body and shape-shifted into a dragon with Mythal's knowledge), I think what's trapped in the Fade isn't their body but their spirits.

 

My theory, if we assume (i) the OGs were the Elvhen gods and (ii) when they "slept" like Solas they wandered the Fade, then my wager is that Solas basically trapped them in there. Their bodies were locked away physically here (there are hints the dwarves know how to do that in DA:O) in the ass-end of the Deep Roads and buried. So then the plot is to create (or re-create, or acquire) darkspawn as mindless husks to dig them out. But something goes wrong, so when they're finally dug out by darkspawn, they're transformed into ADs, because they themselves aren't immune to the taint (or going with the other theory, there's some connection between them and their former High Priests that, with those priests being tainted, now makes the ADs susceptible to be tainted on contact with their former priest).

 

As to the AD can only be tainted by their former priest theory, I note that the most recent World of Thedas indicates that the Architect was the priest of Urthemiel. And we know he started the 5th Blight by coming into contact with Urthemiel. 

[In Exile]

Because you don't know where it is.

You can see the Black City from everywhere but you don't know how to get there. The Fade changes constantly.

Unless there are some special coordinates to get there, then you better start searching. Too bad for you Corypheus ends up dead before extracting that info from him.

 

Who knows how Corypheus and Co. managed that. They were hearing voices after all.

 

Keep in mind this bit about the Black City being equidistant is true when you're in the Fade non-physically. That rule needn't apply if you're there physically. 

[Hellion Rex]

Keep in mind this bit about the Black City being equidistant is true when you're in the Fade non-physically. That rule needn't apply if you're there physically. 

Quite. When someone travels there physically, I imagine that a lot of the normal rules go out the window.

[Killdren88]

Yeah, it could definitely be the case that the Old Gods have part of an elven god's soul within them: it would explain why Solas is so angry with the Grey Wardens for attempting to seek them out and kill them off. It's my belief that the Old Gods are simply victims of the taint rather than its masters and thus killing them wouldn't end the darkspawn threat (who I believe are controlled by the Forgotten Ones).

 

Victims of the taint...What that tells me is that either Gods created the taint be it intentionally, or by freak accident, or the Forgotten Ones.

[Hellion Rex]

Victims of the taint...What that tells me is that either Gods created the taint be it intentionally, or by freak accident, or the Forgotten Ones.

Might have been a freak accident. Though, considering how pissed off Geldauran seemed, it might be an invention of the Forgotten Ones.

[Nehn]

Yeah, it could definitely be the case that the Old Gods have part of an elven god's soul within them: it would explain why Solas is so angry with the Grey Wardens for attempting to seek them out and kill them off. It's my belief that the Old Gods are simply victims of the taint rather than its masters and thus killing them wouldn't end the darkspawn threat (who I believe are controlled by the Forgotten Ones).

Solas was angry because destroying the Old Gods could make the Blight worse instead of ending it (ie: It could empower them, making them stronger).

[Killdren88]

Solas was angry because destroying the Old Gods could make the Blight worse instead of ending it (ie: It could empower them, making them stronger).

 

Indeed. At least with one Old God the Darkspawn have a leash. You take the call of the Old Gods away. You have cases like The Mother Popping up EVERYWHERE. Same concept as the scourge in Warcraft. There must always be a Lich king controlling them otherwise the Scourge would go on a uncontrolled killing frenzy.

 

So without the Old God's call, the Darkspwan Become far more dangerous than with the Call to distract them. Which leads me to think, Will need at least one Old God alive in future games, but try to keep it from becoming corrupted.

[Koneko Koji]

They might just suck at their plans. Ignoring the possible connection to elvhen "gods" (but if they are connected, I'd say their dragon froms are their real bodies; like Morrigan had her real body and shape-shifted into a dragon with Mythal's knowledge), I think what's trapped in the Fade isn't their body but their spirits.

 

My theory, if we assume (i) the OGs were the Elvhen gods and (ii) when they "slept" like Solas they wandered the Fade, then my wager is that Solas basically trapped them in there. Their bodies were locked away physically here (there are hints the dwarves know how to do that in DA:O) in the ass-end of the Deep Roads and buried. So then the plot is to create (or re-create, or acquire) darkspawn as mindless husks to dig them out. But something goes wrong, so when they're finally dug out by darkspawn, they're transformed into ADs, because they themselves aren't immune to the taint (or going with the other theory, there's some connection between them and their former High Priests that, with those priests being tainted, now makes the ADs susceptible to be tainted on contact with their former priest).

 

As to the AD can only be tainted by their former priest theory, I note that the most recent World of Thedas indicates that the Architect was the priest of Urthemiel. And we know he started the 5th Blight by coming into contact with Urthemiel. 

 

Of course, this is assuming that the Chantry et al are right and the Arch Demons are actually the Old Gods - I mean, no one, to my knowledge, has ever seen an Old God before it or during the period it was blighted.

[In Exile]

Of course, this is assuming that the Chantry et al are right and the Arch Demons are actually the Old Gods - I mean, no one, to my knowledge, has ever seen an Old God before it or during the period it was blighted.

 

I think the idea that they're just dragons doesn't work, since the red lyrium (read: blighted) dragon isn't a true archdemon. Solas says as much, and implies there is something different about a true AD. Now, that doesn't rule out that the OGs were just basically the same kinds of beings as Hakkon, but IMO we can't rule out that Solas or the other elven "gods" are anything different from Hakkon (or even just pure spirits, since we know Cole is a Spirit of Compassion who looks like a person). 

[Aulis Vaara]

Of course, this is assuming that the Chantry et al are right and the Arch Demons are actually the Old Gods - I mean, no one, to my knowledge, has ever seen an Old God before it or during the period it was blighted.

There is a memory in the Fade portion of the game that is from the point of view from an ancient Tevinter during the first Blight in which he recognizes the Archdemon attacking the city as Dumat. He even initially thinks Dumat is there to save them from the Darkspawn, but it now looks grey and mottled like them.

[In Exile]

There is a memory in the Fade portion of the game that is from the point of view from an ancient Tevinter during the first Blight in which he recognizes the Archdemon attacking the city as Dumat. He even initially thinks Dumat is there to save them from the Darkspawn, but it now looks grey and mottled like them.

I found that confusing. I thought the OGs were locked away - that Tevinters had no idea what they looked like.

[Reznore57]

I found that confusing. I thought the OGs were locked away - that Tevinters had no idea what they looked like.

 

They had statues of the Old Gods.

Althought they are dragons so ...I'm not sure how you can tell the difference between a random blighted dragon and an official Old God.

People thought Coryphifish 's dragon was an Old God , and it was just a high dragon.

[Bad King]

I found that confusing. I thought the OGs were locked away - that Tevinters had no idea what they looked like.

 

Maybe they inherited images of the Old Gods from the Ancient Elves that they conquered - if the Old Gods were indeed pets of the creators, the elves would no doubt know what they looked like and probably depicted them in their art.

[Qun00]

Even if there was a Golden City, it still was located in the Fade aka demon land.

That the Chantry believes a benevolent Creator would reside there of all places is pretty weird.

[MerricksMom]

And where does Andraste fall into all of this?  Was she tricked by the OG to start a holy war and bring chaos to Thedas?