151 réponses à ce sujet

[Sweawm]

I don't think people have a problem with the characters, I think most people complain that the writer's appear to have suddenly wanted to "drop the bridge" on the Dalish so to speak. They were fine in Origins and II, but now suddenly whenever they are mentioned, the writers has to hammer in how stupid/ignorant/vicious they are and how they have no redeeming qualities. If anything, they should have played an actual role in Inquisition considering the main plot now seems to be the Elven pantheon, but that appears not to be. 

 

I won't go into the fact that whenever characters mention the Dalish in Inquisition, they'll throw out some new totally lore conflicting reason why the Dalish suck. 

[Junebug]

 

I haven't played Origins as a Dalish yet but I felt they were just as closed off and ignorant as they are in DA:I. The clans were so close to the alienage where elves were being kidnapped, traded, and enslaved but they didn't bat an eyelash in both DA:O and DA2. The Dalish clans work so hard to preserve their culture while city elves are suffering in poor conditions. I feel like the clan near Kirkwall was even worse in DA2, especially with Merrill and Fenris in your party to give some more perspective.

 

Their drive to recover their culture is admirable but their willful ignorance, lack of compassion, and elitism over elves who aren't in Dalish clans (or even non-elves) is really gross.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I don't think people have a problem with the characters, I think most people complain that the writer's appear to have suddenly wanted to "drop the bridge" on the Dalish so to speak. They were fine in Origins and II, but now suddenly whenever they are mentioned, the writers has to hammer in how stupid/ignorant/vicious they are and how they have no redeeming qualities. If anything, they should have played an actual role in Inquisition considering the main plot now seems to be the Elven pantheon, but that appears not to be. 

 

I won't go into the fact that whenever characters mention the Dalish in Inquisition, they'll throw out some new totally lore conflicting reason why the Dalish suck. 

Because the Dalish were never depicted as stupid/ignorant/vicious in the previous titles and books. 

[Sweawm]

I haven't played Origins as a Dalish yet but I felt they were just as closed off and ignorant as they are in DA:I. The clans were so close to the alienage where elves were being kidnapped, traded, and enslaved but they didn't bat an eyelash in both DA:O and DA2. The Dalish clans work so hard to preserve their culture while city elves are suffering in poor conditions. I feel like the clan near Kirkwall was even worse in DA2, especially with Merrill and Fenris in your party to give some more perspective.

 

Their drive to recover their culture is admirable but their willful ignorance, lack of compassion, and elitism over elves who aren't in Dalish clans (or even non-elves) is really gross haha.

 

This is really extremely ridiculous. They don't live anywhere near the cities, if they did they'd be destroyed. They are far as they can possible be. Even if they gathered all the Clans, they would maybe only have the strength to take one city, then immediately get curb-stomped by the rest of Thedas. They don't have the resources or strength to help others in any way, let alone guarantee their own survival.  

 

You've really got the whole situation the wrong way around. The City Elves despise and hate the Dalish. Some Dalish Clans are perfectly willing to accept Elves who've left the cities if they are genuinely worthy of their help. The reason the Dalish dislike those in the Alienages is because they do nothing to actually help themselves and have done so for centuries. 

 

 

Because the Dalish were never depicted as stupid/ignorant/vicious in the previous titles and books.  

 

Some Dalish were, but balanced with actual redeeming qualities. The fact that they preserved their culture (Inquisition crushed that into tiny pieces), resisted oppression while their less courageous kin failed and believe in a better future for their entire race. Inquisition trounced that and then rewrote them into vicious bandits roaming the lands carrying on about cultural/religious beliefs are now revealed to be total bull. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You've really got the whole situation the wrong way around. The City Elves despise and hate the Dalish. Some Dalish Clans are perfectly willing to accept Elves who've left the cities if they are genuinely worthy of their help. The reason the Dalish dislike those in the Alienages is because they do nothing to actually help themselves and have done so for centuries. 

No, the Dalish are only willing to take in City Elves provided those Elves become Dalish Elves. If they want to retain their culture, they are kicked out. Meanwhile the City Elves are perfectly willing to let a Dalish Elf keep their culture. 

[Sweawm]

No, the Dalish are only willing to take in City Elves provided those Elves become Dalish Elves. If they want to retain their culture, they are kicked out. Meanwhile the City Elves are perfectly willing to let a Dalish Elf keep their culture. 

 

I don't see the point why they should retain them crossing over. They are both heavily connected to their lifestyles and said culture cannot exists without the locale. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I don't see the point why they should retain them crossing over. They are both heavily connected to their lifestyles and said culture cannot exists without the locale. 

So you agree with the Dalish having the "Our way or the highway" attitude, even knowing that a solitary elf is easy prey for anyone? 

[Sweawm]

So you agree with the Dalish having the "Our way or the highway" attitude, even knowing that a solitary elf is easy prey for anyone? 

 

Just have to ask why they went to the effort to go out into the wilderness into danger if they weren't willing to become what they want to join. As far as what's been seen, everyone seems to have a good idea what joining the Dalish would involve. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Just have to ask why they went to the effort to go out into the wilderness into danger if they weren't willing to become what they want to join. As far as what's been seen, everyone seems to have a good idea what joining the Dalish would involve. 

Because their old lives were terrible, so they ran away to look for something better and came across the Dalish. 

 

Not really. The Dalish aren't very forthcoming with their lore, other than "Humans are bad, we are good." 

[Junebug]

The City Elves despise and hate the Dalish. Some Dalish Clans are perfectly willing to accept Elves who've left the cities if they are genuinely worthy of their help. The reason the Dalish dislike those in the Alienages is because they do nothing to actually help themselves and have done so for centuries. 

The city elves hate them for a good reason...they weren't putting any effort...to help the elves being...enslaved...and living in poor conditions. I resent the same kind of people who act like that in real life. "Help yourself by getting yourself out of your bad situation by accepting to let us convert you before helping you" sounds like a step down from the Qun who physically step in to provide aid (but a step up from complete ignorance I guess). And if the elves they save don't want to convert to the Qun, it's perfectly fine.

 

Sundermount was literally north of Kirkwall.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The city elves hate them for a good reason...they weren't putting any effort...to help the elves being...enslaved...and living in poor conditions. I resent the same kind of people who act like that in real life. "Help yourself by getting yourself out of your bad situation by accepting to let us convert you before helping you" sounds like a step down from the Qun who physically step in to provide aid. And if the elves they save don't want to convert to the Qun, it's perfectly fine.

 

Sundermount was literally north of Kirkwall.

Exactly. While I get and agree the mindset that people should learn to be self-reliant, when you see someone in need you should still help them.

 

The parable "Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, he eats for life." still involves someone helping by teaching the man to fish. 

[Reznore57]

As far as I know in their overall great plan (ahem...) the Dalish wants to unite with the City Elves.

Once they get the land , the city elves would be welcomed and taught the old ways.

 Dalish have to be pragmatic , they mostly survive nowadays , so no there's no talk of rescuing city elves , because well...they can't.

 

But anyway city elves and Dalish have a strange relationship.

Some city elves are in awe of the Dalish , seeing them as some mystical creatures (probably dreaming the Dalish will accomplish something and save them in the long run)

Others think the Dalish are a bunch of looney savages living in the forest.

Some Dalish pity the city elves thinking they have no self respect...others just think city elf are traitor and not much better than humans.

I suppose there's a big elven identity crisis going on.

 

[theflyingzamboni]

Sera DOES change her mind, though!  She’s wary of a Dalish Inquisitor at first, but when you prove to her that you want to help people, she becomes you friend, and might even love you.

 

SO CUT HER SOME SLACK OH MY GOD

 

She doesn't though. If you disagree with her about the Temple of Mythal and elven culture, she'll drop you faster than a hot dish. She loves you until you stand up to her opinions on Dalish.

[Junebug]

She doesn't though. If you disagree with her about the Temple of Mythal and elven culture, she'll drop you faster than a hot dish. She loves you until you stand up to her opinions on Dalish.

I didn't write the analysis XD But yeah, that part of her is incredibly immature and cruel. It's the part of her I severely dislike.

[Sweawm]

The city elves hate them for a good reason...they weren't putting any effort...to help the elves being...enslaved...and living in poor conditions. I resent the same kind of people who act like that in real life. "Help yourself by getting yourself out of your bad situation by accepting to let us convert you before helping you" sounds like a step down from the Qun who physically step in to provide aid (but a step up from complete ignorance I guess). And if the elves they save don't want to convert to the Qun, it's perfectly fine.

 

Sundermount was literally north of Kirkwall.

 

They COULDN'T. Jeez. It's like asking a starving man to solve world hunger, and then hating them because they obviously failed you. Wow. 

[Junebug]

They COULDN'T. Jeez. It's like asking a starving man to solve world hunger, and then hating them because they obviously failed you. Wow. 

No, there's nothing about them that makes them incapable of helping, especially with the help of your PC. They're some of the fiercest hunters around. Yet they literally turn their backs on city elves and resent them for turning their backs on a culture based on half-truths—all in the name of being the "true elves".

[theflyingzamboni]

I didn't write the analysis XD But yeah, that part of her is incredibly immature and cruel. It's the part of her I severely dislike.

Funniest/most annoying part is that you may have just been brain dumped with whole tons of information that would give you a better understanding of all that than she could possibly have, and she calls you stupid for saying "maybe there's some truth to it" while she spouts off absolutisms. It's like, what? Are you kidding me?

[Shechinah]

(to Junebug) You may want to elaborate on how you see the Dalish as being able to and not helping the City elves because I don't see how a tribal people can help people living in a city?

 

If it is through hunting then I'm not sure that is viable since city elves, at least in Denerim, are not allowed to carry weapons which a bow would certainly qualify as. Traps would likely qualify as well.

 

If it is through food then I'm not sure the Dalish would provide much that they do not need themselves.

 

If it is through storming a city or something of that sort then I consider that just plain suicidal considering how well-equipped a guardsman would be in contrast to a Dalish warrior and they would be severely outnumbered. Maybe they would take a village but then they'd be slaughtered down when word got out.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

(to Junebug) You may want to elaborate on how you see the Dalish as being able to and not helping the City elves because I don't see how a tribal people can help people living in a city? If it is through hunting then I'm not sure that is viable since city elves, at least in Denerim, are not allowed to carry weapons which a bow would certainly qualify as. If it is through food then I'm not sure the Dalish would provide much that they do not need themselves.

Not attacking and being racist to humans, thus giving humans reason to attack and be racist to elves can be a start. 

[Shechinah]

(to Hanako Ikezawa) I revised my points above before I saw your comment. I agree attacking in other than self-defense against others is a poor idea but I'm still in my impression that it is a minority of clans who attack and that most times, it is members of a clan who do it and not by the clan's approval like in the case of Velanna.

 

 Could you provide me with some examples of clans or Dalish people attacking so I know which we are talking about?

[Sweawm]

Not attacking and being racist to humans, thus causing humans to attack and be racist to elves can be a start. 

 

That's laughable if you think the Dalish started the conflict. The Imperium invaded and enslaved them all because their empire was weak after the Dread Wolf crippled it and the rest of Thedas has continued to treat them like complete **** to the present era of Inquisition. The Dalish never started the conflict, they resisted invasion, enslavement and forced conversion.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

(to Hanako Ikezawa) I revised my points above before I saw your comment. I agree attacking in other than self-defense against others is a poor idea. Could you provide me with some examples of clans or Dalish people attacking so I know which we are talking about?

The Dalish origin can literally start with Dalish Elves murdering three humans. Then there are Dalish clans who are no better than bandits mentioned in a Codex written by Genetivi. 

 

 

That's laughable if you think the Dalish started the conflict. The Imperium invaded and enslaved them all because their empire was weak after the Dread Wolf crippled it and the rest of Thedas has continued to treat them like complete **** to the present era of Inquisition. The Dalish never started the conflict, they resisted invasion, enslavement and forced conversion.

They did start the conflict. This whole mess started by racial distrust after the Dales didn't help Orlais fight the Second Blight which erupted into war when the Dales massacred the town of Red Crossing and launched an invasion of Orlais. 

 

And seeing all humans as the same as Tevinter just proves how it is their fault since it shows them being racist. The humans who followed Andraste gave the elves a new homeland, the opposite of slavery, but they still saw them as no better than Tevinter. Any elf who differed from that view was seen as a traitor. 

[Junebug]

(to Junebug) You may want to elaborate on how you see the Dalish as being able to and not helping the City elves because I don't see how a tribal people can help people living in a city?

The Qun is a perfect example of an indigenous group who aids the needy without an ulterior motive and they don't have an abundance of resources either.

 

As for resources, I think pouring efforts into looking for old relics is incredibly wasteful as opposed to pouring that same effort into doing anything else (gathering goods to aid enslaved elves, putting more training in The Ways, craft weapons/goods, anything). The other thing that makes the Dalish clans weak is their separation of one another. Like you said, some of them travel in small villages and that leaves an enormous crack in their culture. "Divided we fall" type of thing.

 

However, I do feel their prejudice of humans is a little warranted. Humans are still enslaving elves (Tevinter) and mistreating them (throwing them into the worst living conditions). But again, Dalish clans have no right to be self-righteous about the stuff that happens to city elves when they've offered more aid to digging up ancient rocks than helping people.

[Sweawm]

The Dalish origin can literally start with Dalish Elves murdering three humans. Then there are Dalish clans who are no better than bandits mentioned in a Codex written by Genetivi. 

 

 

They did start the conflict. This whole mess started by racial distrust after the Dales didn't help Orlais fight the Second Blight which erupted into war when the Dales massacred the town of Red Crossing and launched an invasion of Orlais. And seeing all humans as the same as Tevinter just proves how it is their fault since it shows them being racist. 

 

Come on, you can't cite misty lore in this debate. The Codex has always bounced that between 'Elves at fault' and leaned strongly towards 'Chantry took a minor border incident that may have never happened and used it to give Orlais a cesus beli to annex the Dales, a kingdom that refused the Chantry's control.' But again, the lore isn't solid there. 

 

And every civilization in the current Dragon Age setting are still just as bad as the Imperium. The Chantry continues to harass them with Templars and every nation in Thedas occasionally attacks them if they know where to find them. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Come on, you can't cite misty lore in this debate. The Codex has always bounced that between 'Elves at fault' and leaned strongly towards 'Chantry took a minor border incident that may have never happened and used it to give Orlais a cesus beli to annex the Dales, a kingdom that refused the Chantry's control.' But again, the lore isn't solid there. 

 

And every civilization in the current Dragon Age setting are still just as bad as the Imperium. The Chantry continues to harass them with Templars and every nation in Thedas occasionally attacks them if they know where to find them. 

If you are allowed to make stuff up entirely, I am allowed to site "misty lore". 

 

So every civilization in Thedas practices slavery and blood sacrifice? The only other culture that practiced either of those was Elvenhan, the same culture that the Dalish want to bring back.