151 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Anonymous asked: Can I make one minor point regarding Merrill? In DA2, Hawke tells her to help the alienage elves and she admits that she barely looked at them because the Dalish see themselves as the "last true elves". And the others in her clan feels that way too, as the guards say that when Hawke asks them who the Dalish are. As much as I love Merrill and loved hearing Varric saying that Merrill is helping the elves, she did need someone to tell her that the alienage elves exist.

 

First of all, Anonymous is incorrect. Merrill refers to the Alienage elves as 'elves' in Act I, and tells Fenris that the plight of the Andrastian elves matters in Act II. Merrill didn't need anyone to tell her the Alienage elves exist because she was already cognizant about their suffering long before Act III.

 

Merrill tells Fenris that she laments that escaped elven slaves don't try to find refugee with the Dalish, away from the Imperium. She makes friends with elves in the Alienage; she suggests Sebastian could name his bow Philomela and she reassures  Nyssa that Hawke is there to help. Her efforts with restoring the Eluvian are about helping the elves out of their decline. She even takes the Andrastian elves under her wing during the events of Inquisition, in order to protect them from the humans in the Mage-Templar War.

 

Furthermore, what does the viewpoint of one single guard have to do with the multitude of men, women, and children who are Dalish all across the breath of Thedas? It's like making a thread bashing the Dalish by bringing up Clan Virnehn and completely ignoring that Clan Lavellan stand in direct contradiction to Clan Virnehn.

 

Most of this I forgot about or never heard, so thanks!

 

And yeah, Merrill grew up thinking these shitty things, but I guess my point there was, minds can be changed.  She needed some pushing to make it happen, because the worldview she’d been given was the only one she had for most of her life.  But she is actually a compassionate person who can step up when she has to.

 

IDK maybe what it actually took with Merrill was her whole clan rejecting her in Act 3 to the point that they certainly weren’t her people anymore.

 

No, because Merrill didn't denigrate the Andrastian elves since she already expresses that their plight matters long before Act III. Merrill certainly didn't stop being Dalish simply because her clan forsook her, either.

[Doveberry]

You make a good point about Dalish clans. I've always said that their weakness was their division but, you're right on that as well.

I've always gotten the impression that it's a necessary part of their survival strategy. If they started gathering in large numbers in one place for too long, I don't think it's unlikely that an attack by the nearest human army would soon follow (because they would, of course, be "squatting" on land "owned" by humans). Or perhaps a new exalted march; those are always fun. 

 

Also, the Chantry's way of handling mages throughout the centuries made sure that the Dalish simply had no option other than scattering and moving about. The only alternative would be giving up their magically gifted family members and friends to the followers of the religion that perpetuated the genocide of their ancestors and destroyed their last chance at a homeland. I don't really care that the Dalish technically "started it" (because of a misunderstanding). The Chantry sure finished it, and then some.

 

Humans...*sigh*

I can only agree. 

 

Ugh, I agree about Sera. There is so much about her to love but her inability to compromise and her toxic treatment of romanced Lavellan is really infuriating. I think I remember seeing that she even treated the human Inquisitor similarly, threatening to break up over philosophical differences. Have you seen the fan theory that she may be Andruil (or maybe have her essence)? It's pretty interesting.

I have read that and I completely love it. It's firmly tucked away in my headcanon until it's proven wrong. It would be glorious if it were true. I don't think I've ever come across a game character like Sera, and it would make such a weird kind of sense (and explain a lot) if she were actually Andruil. 

[LobselVith8]

I haven't played Origins as a Dalish yet but I felt they were just as closed off and ignorant as they are in DA:I. The clans were so close to the alienage where elves were being kidnapped, traded, and enslaved but they didn't bat an eyelash in both DA:O and DA2. The Dalish clans work so hard to preserve their culture while city elves are suffering in poor conditions. I feel like the clan near Kirkwall was even worse in DA2, especially with Merrill and Fenris in your party to give some more perspective.

 

Their drive to recover their culture is admirable but their willful ignorance, lack of compassion, and elitism over elves who aren't in Dalish clans (or even non-elves) is really gross.

 

This is completely ridiculous. There is no evidence that Zathrian's clan knew that Loghain made a deal with Tevinter to sell the elves into slavery. There is also no evidence that Clan Sabrae willfully ignored evidence that some were being sold into slavery in Kirkwall. The Dalish are legally criminals because the Chantry outlawed their religion, templars hunt down the mages in the clan, and human lords attack the Dalish if they stay too long in an area, which is why Clan Lavellan traveled in the Free Marches. The Dalish protagonist's people "travel along the borders of each city-state's territory, where Free March rulers will be less inclined to attack them, for fear of accidentally provoking neighboring cities."

 

As for your dismissal of an entire ethnic group, what about Clan Lavellan, who risked their lives to save the humans who were poisoned with red lyrium in Wycome? Or how Clan Lavellan refused to leave the city-state when the Marcher armies were approaching, because they wouldn't abandon the Andrastian elves? Perhaps you can refrain from condemning an entire ethnic group of men, women, and children because some people among them aren't good or open-minded.

[Junebug]

 

You're right. Merrill is very selfless and everything she did was for her clan and to add to Dalish history. However, Anonymous wasn't saying she looked down on city elves—it's the fact that she didn't see them at all and didn't understand just how much they were suffering. And it's true, she was ignorant of the alienage elves before they introduced her to their living conditions and even during her obsession to restore Dalish history (one, two, three). The last video, she admits after Hawke suggests she help alienage elves: "That's true...the Dalish always say we're the only true elves. And I've lived here for years, and never thought... I've barely even looked at them. I feel like such a fool."

[LobselVith8]

I really want to crawl back to my main point and that is that the Bioware writer's shafted the Dalish with Inquisition. I have no idea how I got into this long debate of whose in the right. But still, I really hate what Inquisition does, especially since the Dalish Inquisitor most of the time just sits back and lets everyone else say stuff about their culture. Like Dalish abandon their own young (... where the hell did this come from and how does it make sense?) and when they have more than three mages they automatically throw out the excess (despite that most clans in the previous games were so desperate for a First they had to go looking beyond their own clan to find one and the Dalish lore lamenting the fact they'll die out because they are running out of Keepers).

 

It's just so out of place and nonsensical, it makes it look like it was only added in purely to cast them in a horrible light which again, I really would like to know the reason for. 

 

Considering Merrill's codex and Merrill's dialogue completely contradicts this (as well as Zathrian's clan welcoming Aneirin when they already had three mages, while Elora - yet another mage - was a halla herder, not the Second), it seems that it's intended to strengthen the Circle argument, which makes sense since it's brought up by pro-Circle characters, from Minaeve to Vivienne. In fact, Merrill's codex explicitly addressed that magic is dying out among the Dalish, which is the reason why her tribe, Clan  Alerion, allowed her to be taken in by Clan Sabrae: "As each generation passes, magic becomes more rare among the Dalish. As the gift dies out, talented children are moved between clans so that every Keeper has a successor, and no clan is in danger of being left without guidance."

 

Merrill also mentions that any child who has magic is apprenticed to a Keeper, and expresses confusion at the Circles because she doesn't understand why anyone would lock away mages where their magic can't benefit people, since she addresses that the People see magic as a "gift of the Creators". The Dalish are also the remnants of the Dales, an independent kingdom where mages were free, so there is no reason why the Dalish should share the same views on magic as Andrastians, particularly when they had no indigenous templars in the Dales.

[Patient.Zero]

 

• Merrill: But if they ran away, the Dalish would help them.
• Fenris: You might as well say, "If they flew into the sky, they could live in the clouds."
• Merrill: What would they eat in the clouds? There's nothing there but fluff and the occasional bird.
• Fenris: This is why nobody takes the Dalish seriously.

 

I think the line after the one you bolded is pretty telling as well. The present day elves in this universe aren't the usual mystical awe inspiring race that I think people are use to in fantasy worlds. Here in Dragon Age they are just as bumbling and short sighed as everyone else (i.e. susceptible to the faults of humanity... or is it elfanity? You get what I mean.)

[LobselVith8]

Not at all! The author, who is not me, even admits not all Dalish clans are like this. They were speaking in regards to Sera which was why they picked on residents in Val Royeaux and chose The Masked Empire.

 

And the author was right about Merrill—she did admit she didn't notice the plight of alienage elves if Varric & Co. hadn't pointed it out to her. Cut Fenris some slack. He was enslaved and abused his entire life, his mother before him, and his sister tried to traffick him back into slavery. I'd be upset too if a person who lived pretty contently put themselves in the place of the suffering for a few years and suddenly it's their place to shame me for wanting to rest.

 

Except, as Faerunner points out, that single line of dialogue is explicitly contradicted by the many other lines of dialogue where Merrill expresses that she cares about the Andrastian elves, including explicitly addressing that their plight matters. It's certainly not the first time that we encountered an erroneous line of dialogue before.

 

Also, Fenris - like Merrill - is from a foreign society. He was a slave from Tevinter, while she was a member of a group of men and women who have to live nomadic lifestyles because Andrastian humans outlawed their religion and attack them if they stay too long in one region, not to mention the dangers that the templars pose them (as Ariane defended her clan from at least one templar who threatened her people, while the templars in Amaranthine wanted to find new ways to combat the Dalish).

 

Yes, "the Dalish don't care" is a generalization. I didn't wanna change the title of the original analysis but her point is valid, especially in regards to Sera and the Dalish clans near Val Royeaux. Plus, most of the Dalish clans we run into are ignorant of what's going on in the alienages/Tevinter and shame the elves for losing their way just as Merrill did to Fenris...but I guess #NotAllDalish.

 

It's not valid when the point is incorrect, since it's a generalization of an entire ethnic group of people. It's simply an inflammatory title that you know will irritate some people. Sera isn't a good example, since she has a problem with Dalish and Andrastian elves. The point isn't valid for Hawen's clan when the Keeper distrusts the protagonist due to the perceived ties with the Chantry. Furthermore, when you consider that the Dalish are outlaws because of their religion and in danger from outsiders, why are you surprised that they are hesitant to trust outsiders? That isn't going to be conducive for the Dalish to automatically trust outsiders. As one example, Mahariel's parents were killed by Andrastian humans and Andrastian elves.

[Ashagar]

I wonder if both could be true from a certain viewpoint, I mean that dalish are literally scattered across Thadas with diversity amongst dalish clans in one area so it could be that magic is dying out amongst the dalish clans in some areas thadas while in others they were having a overabundance or it could just be they left her to die because as she notes herself she is a weak mage and a weak mage would be a hindrance.

[LobselVith8]

I think the line after the one you bolded is pretty telling as well. The present day elves in this universe aren't the usual mystical awe inspiring race that I think people are use to in fantasy worlds. Here in Dragon Age they are just as bumbling and short sighed as everyone else. It's humanity. 

 

That Fenris is spiteful towards Merrill no matter what she says, even when she suggests that the Dalish would help elves in need? I think plenty of us are already privy to that.

 

If you mean her use of dry humor, Merrill invokes dry humor quite a bit: "It's been nothing but roses and rainbows, Master Ilen. The Alienage is lovely in the spring. The collapsing shacks and drunken brutes are nicely offset by the knee-deep mud."

[Steelcan]

That Fenris is spiteful towards Merrill no matter what she says, even when she suggests that the Dalish would help elves in need? I think plenty of us are already privy to that.

 

If you mean her use of dry humor, Merrill invokes dry humor quite a bit: "It's been nothing but roses and rainbows, Master Ilen. The Alienage is lovely in the spring. The collapsing shacks and drunken brutes are nicely offset by the knee-deep mud."

I love how she's using dry humor and sarcasm one minute, but then confused as to what words actually mean the next because of "culture shock"

[Patient.Zero]

That Fenris is spiteful towards Merrill no matter what she says, even when she suggests that the Dalish would help elves in need? I think plenty of us are already privy to that.

 

If you mean her use of dry humor, Merrill invokes dry humor quite a bit: "It's been nothing but roses and rainbows, Master Ilen. The Alienage is lovely in the spring. The collapsing shacks and drunken brutes are nicely offset by the knee-deep mud."

 

I was actually trying to point out that neither Dalish or city elves know what to do with themselves.

[LobselVith8]

I was actually trying to point out that neither Dalish or city elves know what to do with themselves.

 

Both groups were dealt a bad hand. The two are in the unenviable position of living on a continent where, as Duncan said, most Andrastian humans see elves as less than people, so it's simply been a matter of survival for both groups for centuries. The Alienage gets purged when the people revolt against their conditions (i.e. the massacre of the orphanage and countless others in Denerim or the burning of thousands in Halamshiral), while the Dalish are unable to settle down due to their religious beliefs.

 

Things can change for both groups, but Briala requires the Orlesian Eluvian network to give her network an edge (along with the Orlesian civil war fragmenting both sides) and the support of the Inquisitor to give the Orlesian elves any real hope of a better future, while the Dalish need one of their own to become a messianic figure who stops the apocalypse to get some Andrastian humans to reconsider their views on elves in general.

[leaguer of one]

I love how she's using dry humor and sarcasm one minute, but then confused as to what words actually mean the next because of "culture shock"

She's smarter then she looks but her head is way to deep into books.

[Giantdeathrobot]

'Cause I found an analysis that sums up my feelings about them so I made a thread. I mean, if you'd like to single out other groups, be my guest—I agree that the groups you mentioned are pretty bad too. Just don't do it here 'cause it'd heavily derail discussions about Dalish clans

 

I wasn't speaking about your post in particular, but I saw several people say the same thing, that Bioware made the Dalish evil in Inquisition to make the Chantry or Templars look good. Which is nuts to me since there is hardly a single aspect of the Chantry, from the Grand Clerics to the Chancellors, the Seekers and the Templars, that don't get blasted in this game, to say nothing of the high amount of respect given to the legacy of the Dales and stuff like Inquisitor Ameridan which is just a double whammy of proving the current Chantry wrong in every single respect.

 

I actually like that the Dalish have a darker side. Oppressed noble savages are as boring as tropes can get.

[Junebug]

I actually like that the Dalish have a darker side. Oppressed noble savages are as boring as tropes can get.

Yeah, I was really surprised to find out that Tevinter humans weren't the ones who enslaved the elves first, although Humans now hold far more power to free elves and help them have a better life. I wonder what's gonna happen now that the Lavellan!Inquisitor knows that they enslaved their own and if she'd share that information with her people or let them live in ignorance...lots of consequences to each of these decisions.

[Bad King]

Why should Sera, a girl who’s had to fend for herself in a world that spits on her, respect the Dalish?  With all the sh!t she’s been through?  With all the help she could have used?  Where were they then?  Digging in old ruins, trying to salvage the past.

 

I feel that this quote posted by the OP is completely missing the point of Sera's attitude. Firstly, Sera has lived a better life than most urban elves: she had a tough first few years but was sponsored by a human noble patron and thus highly privileged compared to the majority of those who live in Alienages, so I doubt she was pining for elven tribes to emerge from the woods and deliver her salvation during her formative years. Secondly, as a direct result of this upbringing in a human world, Sera is not merely prejudiced towards Dalish beliefs but also towards all elven culture that is distinct from the human world: anything she perceives as 'elfy' (be it Dalish culture, Alienage culture or ancient elven culture) is fair game for her gloating. Neither is Sera's criticism of elven culture particularly rational: throughout the game, she appears to condemn anything associated with elven culture without judging these things on their own individual merits or faults: she's a bigot.

 

This puts her at odds with most elves from Alienage communities, most of whom appear to put effort into maintaining what elven traditions they can (such as incorporating phrases from the elven language into their vocabulary, growing and maintaining vhenadahl trees or selecting hahrens to represent their communities).

[Mihura]

I think the main difference between the Dalish, Avvar, and Qunari is each group's knowledge of their culture and faith. All religions to a point believe that they are practising the the true/right way of living life, but unlike the Qunari or Avvar the Dailsh proclaim this without any actual knowledge of their own faith. They got a lot of it wrong according to Solas, Alblas, and various codexes found throughout the game but they continue to practice there (not really) Dalish ways with an air of superiority. It's not really the fact that they live in the woods that I think gets them a bad rap, but rather that fact that they cherish half truths and misinterpretations instead of real live people. In essence they're like children on a playground trying to build a palace to live in with the sand in the sandbox.

 

Now of course it can be said that not all Dalish are like that, (there is no group of people that are 100% identical) but that hasn't changed anything for either side. I do agree that it would be impractical for the Dalish to try and storm a city to free the elves in the alienage but also think that they could do without their "holier then thou" attitude. 

 

This is also true for other religions in Thedas really, the Chantry is one (no one really knows who was Andraste or who is the Maker and how all of that relates to the bigger picture) and I bet the Qunari have some books that got lost during wars with Orlais and Tevinter and so on... cofIsabelareliccof. Assuming that all these cultures never changed their dogmatic views is improbable, especially when it is "hinted" things like mage seekers.

There is a lot of falsehood and lost knowledge, the only difference is that the dalish elves do live in florets and have no real army or power. They have the reputation but not the spoils, seem pointless to me. Which is kinda like a social justice warrior lol

 

 

Yeah, I was really surprised to find out that Tevinter humans weren't the ones who enslaved the elves first, although Humans now hold far more power to free elves and help them have a better life. I wonder what's gonna happen now that the Lavellan!Inquisitor knows that they enslaved their own and if she'd share that information with her people or let them live in ignorance...lots of consequences to each of these decisions.

 

 

To tell you the true I think nothing will happen with that knowledge, knowing someone enslave others over a couple of centuries in the past does not change the present. You just need to look at RL history.

[LOLandStuff]

I love how she's using dry humor and sarcasm one minute, but then confused as to what words actually mean the next because of "culture shock"

 

I'd end up in a coma from drinking each time I read these words.

[KaiserShep]

I actually like that the Dalish have a darker side. Oppressed noble savages are as boring as tropes can get.

 

I enjoyed this too. I just feel bad that Hawke couldn't learn this in DA2 when that snotty elf tells you that you're close to being stuck with arrows.

[Roamingmachine]

I enjoyed this too. I just feel bad that Hawke couldn't learn this in DA2 when that snotty elf tells you that you're close to being stuck with arrows.

 

 

HEAVILY ARMED human walking around a camp of a people who have every reason to be vary of humans gets a warning and attitude from said people? Yes, so snotty and totally not reasonable precautions and variness stemming from experience involving humans  . Should they have rolled out the red carpet, maybe bowed down before Hawkes human superiority? 

[LOLandStuff]

Don't forget rose petals. Maybe invite them for tea and cookies.

 

It makes sense they'd be cautious when strangers enter their camp. They might've agreed to let you in but it doesn't mean they shouldn't keep an eye on you.

Besides, isn't that comment made by some random dalish who warns you they have their arrows on you if you make a wrong move.

 

"Watch yourself, shem, you don't know when  something something."

[Steelcan]

HEAVILY ARMED human walking around a camp of a people who have every reason to be vary of humans gets a warning and attitude from said people? Yes, so snotty and totally not reasonable precautions and variness stemming from experience involving humans  . Should they have rolled out the red carpet, maybe bowed down before Hawkes human superiority? 

sure, they could use the practice in recognizing their betters

[SwobyJ]

I don't suppose it matters in the end, since I feel that the Dalish are pretty much doomed.

 

Yeah. DAI gave us 3(?) zones in the Dales and about 1/3(?) of the story relating to the Dalish in some way (while giving us no Dalish companion) in order to ease us out of caring about the Dalish.

 

The Dalish may always be a part of Dragon Age and they're still scattered around Thedas, but I'm pretty sure that they're relatively more in the south of Thedas and revolve themselves around having some geographic connection to the Dales and recovering things of it. I dunno, there might be 'Dalish' around where Arlathan was, but I still have the feeling that we'll either just see Dalish more in the background after DAI, or even get a story where the elves have to pretty much unite as a New 'People' again due to the events of this Age. Essentially, the 'Dalish' (one way or another, but more the concept) are doomed. I just don't think Bioware's going to completely doom their current culture and people.

 

Elements of the series' stories make me think that (a number of) the Dalish will join into the City Elves and they'll ultimately be both enriched by the results. A series of events will have to happen in order to encourage this though - obviously most Dalish won't voluntarily do this as it is and most City Elves don't feel a particular connection to the Dales/Arlathan.

 

I definitely think we're in for at least one more major Elven storyline (DA4 maybe not, but at least a DA5!) and both demographics may be involved with it. As long as Arlathan isn't directly dealt with in a big way, we know the elven story is up in the air. What DAI did was shift focus away from the Dalish (DAO-DA2) and more clearly onto the City Elves (DA2-DAI) and maybe an emerging focus onto 'The People' (DAI-DA..4?). I don't think we'll have the next game have just a single Dalish clan on the outskirts like DA2 had - I think we've moved past that.

 

Increasingly, Dalish fans may have to linger on their attachment to the earlier games, because the future games may not 'care' so much about the Dalish. Dalish will probably still be involved with things, sure - important things - but yeah, you can already see the changing feelings on them in this thread. Their constant benefit is that in their keeping of many (though not at all most) elven histories and artifacts and magic, Dalish may still in fact be useful to some end in a game's plot (ARLATHAN).

[SwobyJ]

I dunno if that's true. The concept of Uthenera seems to indicate (to me) that the Fade was there even during the days of Arlathan. Certainly the humans, who at one point coexisted with Arlathan, have never known any other way. If the Veil truly did not exist at some point it must have been eons ago, perhaps before the elves even existed.

 

(Sorry, catching up on thread)

 

My impression is that during the time of Arlathan, the Veil existed, but was much more easily understood as, well, only a 'veil', not a 'wall' called the Veil (except by mages and their like).

 

Something happened that established the more secure 'Veil'. That made Thedas much more 'real' - that maybe closed it off more from the other realms of existence.

 

But it was always closed off to some degree. Thedas was always its own realm, ever since (in the myths/religions) the Maker created it. But my impression is that the Maker made Thedas with much more of a 'communicative' intent - as in it was made with Thedas and non-Thedas being much more able to exchange between themselves. Maybe even other stuff happened with more titan-like figures (we may find out about this in a more dwarven focused game), but whatever happened, we know that Arlathan prospered during a time that the Veil was much more thin and able to be manipulated by many more people than now. 

 

The Veil itself is a type of magic (or rather 'creation') that predates any history except for whatever we may find in ancient elven texts (that we haven't seen yet), or the Andrastan Maker mythology, or whatever other mysterious sources we also haven't seen yet.

Or rather, the Veil is our physically understood manifestation of a kind of magic that goes beyond the real ('Thedas') or the illusory ('The Fade', at least as most see it through dreams). This is what involves the Rifts/Breach, what may involve the 'Green Lyrium' in the Hissing Wastes that we still don't know anything about, and the Rift Magic that it seems the People (or at least/especially Fen'Harel) were adept at.

In learning about how the Veil works, the knowledge can trickle down into learning how to more skillfully manipulate the workings of both 'The Fade' and 'Thedas'. This was probably a huge part in what lead Arlathan to prosper - and with new info, we can believe that it would have continued to prosper 'forever' if it wasn't for their ignorance and delusion about their own innate superiority (UGH ELVES IN FANTASY) and flaws in their society (SLAVES, EGO WORSHIP, RACISM, ETC). This created enough darkness - and as we see in the myths, great infighting between the gods themselves - that someone (ahem Fen'Harel) finally did something about it all, even if he himself was imperfect and did his something imperfectly.

[SwobyJ]

That stuff isn't about damning the Dalish, it's about justifying the Templars. The Dalish having a working system without the excess nastiness of the Circles makes the Mage/Templar debate look rather silly, so they changed the Dalish.

 

The Dalish 'working system' was a very very very limited 'working system'. It would work for everyone if everyone decided to go tribal and if the quantity/ratio of mages were a fraction of what it actually is.

 

It works enough --- for them. For the Dalish. And not perfectly.