151 réponses à ce sujet

[OriginalTibs]

...

ETA 2: Humans are definitely the root of problems of both the Dalish clans and city elves. Fragifera made some very good points here. Some food for thought

 

Was this insightful? Do you have a different opinion? More evidence of Dalish's indifference? An appeal for the Dalish? Lemme know what you think!

I disagree that Humans are the root of the problem for Dalish clans and city elves. Humans may wish elves were mere victims, but the responsibility, a.k.a. 'root of the problem' for a people is ultimately who they have chosen to be. The humans can be a significant environmental variable, but not root cause.City elves could choose defiant rebellion. Dalish elves could choose to identify with their alienage brethren. Or choose better than I propose, but the point is they choose to be as they are.

 

The advantage is that they can therefore change, difficult and unlikely though that may be. Determining that humans are the root cause denies the elves the agency to choose differently. You steal their liberty with the theft of their responsibility.

 

The elves are not victims, they are simply differently flawed than humans.

[Doveberry]

I disagree that Humans are the root of the problem for Dalish clans and city elves. Humans may wish elves were mere victims, but the responsibility, a.k.a. 'root of the problem' for a people is ultimately who they have chosen to be. The humans can be a significant environmental variable, but not root cause.City elves could choose defiant rebellion. Dalish elves could choose to identify with their alienage brethren. Or choose better than I propose, but the point is they choose to be as they are.

 

The advantage is that they can therefore change, difficult and unlikely though that may be. Determining that humans are the root cause denies the elves the agency to choose differently. You steal their liberty with the theft of their responsibility.

 

The elves are not victims, they are simply differently flawed than humans.

You don't choose who you become; you are shaped by the environment that you exist in. In Dragon Age, that environment is almost exclusively controlled by humans. That doesn't mean that every individual human is to blame, but humans as a group definitely are. The only reasonable approach for the elves (those of them that even have the option) is to distance themselves from their oppressors and try to create an existence on their own terms. That is what the Dalish are trying to do; they did choose differently. Elves cannot be equals in the current human world, and they do not have the social or military power to force humanity to treat them like people.

 

Suggesting that acknowledging the fact that the elves are being oppressed would somehow take away their ability to choose their own future is just silly, bordering on cruel. By definition, an oppressed group is being held down by another group, and that is a fact that doesn't go away just because it's uncomfortable. You cannot ignore oppression into oblivion; you need to start by acknowledging it and understanding it. Admitting that you are being victimized by others does not make the situation your fault; nor does it mean that you have to let that victimhood define you. It is simply a realization of fact; a necessary basis for any real struggle for change. Only when you have identified and understood your enemy can you begin to fight against it in an effective manner.

 

The humans are the ones standing in the way of the elven people. That is a simple fact, and one that can only be changed in one of two ways; either the humans stop being such asshats, or the elves rise up and take the power that the humans have denied them for so long. Both scenarios are unlikely, and the latter would likely again result in social inequality, just skewed in the elves' favour instead of the humans'. It seems to me that until the humans start realising that it's pretty uncool to oppress everybody else, the Dalish have made the only reasonable choice. They still have to play by humanity's rules, but they have chosen to define their own existence as far as they possibly can. They stay away, avoid detection and look after their own. It's not exactly ideal, but they have done the best they could in a bad situation.

 

Finally, It really rubs me the wrong way when people imply that just admitting that oppression exists somehow takes power away from the oppressed. A factual analysis of an unfair situation gives power to the oppressed; not the other way around. The oppressors are the ones stealing other people's power, and one of the most effective ways of hiding that is by saying things like:

The elves are not victims, they are simply differently flawed than humans.

They ARE victims. That doesn't mean that they can't fight to change that situation. Pretending that the problem doesn't exist obscures the issue in a very sinister manner (that only benefits the oppressors), but it's still there, and people suffer because of it.

[Patient.Zero]

I don't speak for OriginalTibs, but I don't believe his comment was suggesting that ignoring the oppression the elves is any kind of solution.

 

I do agree with you to a point when you say that a person is the subject of their environment, but that is not the sole defining factor. Think of the argument of nature over nurture, it's a mixture of both that shapes a person and even then they are still able to change. I do not deny that elves live difficult lives, I just don't think that you can attribute the entirety of their plight to a single (external) factor. To my understanding, elven history follows this time line: the glory days, the fall of Elvhenan, Tevinter finds them, Tevinter enslaves them, escape to the Dales, exalted marches, division of the people (city elves and the Dalish), and then the the current Dragon Age. Now of course I have simplified things but what I am trying to say is that over the course of X amount of years there are only two instances of human intervention. YES, these are very prominent and historical instances (being enslaved by Tevinter and the exalted marches of the Chantry) but they are still only two in number. The fall Elvhenan, the division, and the current relations between the Dalish and city elves are things that were/are within the elves power to change. NO, it would not have/will not be easy. But that does not make it impossible or invalidate trying. 

 

The elves are indeed flawed. Just like everybody else. They are neither superior or inferior they simply exist. 

 

I don't know how else to explain myself >_< 

[Ashagar]

While people are indeed shaped and effected by society in general it is their choices and how they react to that environment that define who they are and who they become not the environment in and of itself. Elves, dwarves and humans are who they are in all their variations because of how they react to and their choices in regards to their environments and the people in it.

 

Nothing is predetermined simply because of environment be it the relations of elves and men or elves and elves.

[andy6915]

Fact is, elves need their own version of Martin Luther King Junior to do get a proper civil rights movement going. Humans won't care or be convinced to care otherwise.

[Shechinah]

(to OriginalTibs) The city elves have chosen to rebel as seen with Halamshiral in the "Masked Empire" and in the Denerim Alienage in Origins and the former resulted in the elven slums being burned to the ground with the elves slaughtered and while the second one fared better, that was only in terms of more of the population surviving and mind you, it still resulted in an orphanage being massacred so brutally it left the Veil weakened.   

 

Individuals elves from the alienage have also tried to better things for themselves through hard work and savings even to the point some could afford to move outside the alienage but as brought up in the codex: "Sometimes a family gets a good break and they buy a house in the docks, or the outskirts of town. If they're lucky, they come back to the alienage after the looters have burned their house"

 

They are victims of racial oppression: "Racial oppression is burdening a specific race with unjust or cruel restraints or impositions"

[Doveberry]

 

I don't speak for OriginalTibs, but I don't believe his comment was suggesting that ignoring the oppression the elves is any kind of solution.

 

I do agree with you to a point that a when you say that a person is the subject of their environment, but that is not the sole defining factor. Think of the argument of nature over nurture, it's a mixture of both that shapes a person and even then they are still able to change. I do not deny that elves live difficult lives, I just don't think that you can attribute the entirety of their plight to a single (external) factor. To my understanding, elven history follows this time line: the glory days, the fall of Elvhenan, Tevinter finds them, Tevinter enslaves them, escape to the Dales, exalted marches, division of the people (city elves and the Dalish), and then the the current Dragon Age. Now of course I have simplified things but what I am trying to say is that over the course of X amount of years there are only two instances of human intervention. YES, these are very prominent and historical instances (being enslaved by Tevinter and the exalted marches of the Chantry) but they are still only two in number. The fall Elvhenan, the division, and the current relations between the Dalish and city elves are things that were/are within the elves power to change. NO, it would not have/will not be easy. But that does not make it impossible or invalidate trying. 

 

The elves are indeed flawed. Just like everybody else. They are neither superior or inferior they simply exist. 

 

I don't know how else to explain myself >_< 

 

I'm not talking about inferiority or superiority, and I don't really see why it even needs to factor into the discussion. Would being oppressed make the elves inferior? Why? It's just a hard fact of life, and it doesn't necessarily make them better or worse as people. The humans are a product of their world (a world that they rule) every bit as much as the elves are. The social structures in Thedas are clearly, firmly in the humans' favour. That is also a fact, and one that limits the scope of what the elves can do to change their own situation. The elves can be both flawed and actively oppressed, and neither of those things would necessarily prevent them forever from somehow bringing about change and equality for themselves. People have in our world, although the result has never been perfect. Groups that have all the social power rarely like to share.

 

Also, we aren't talking about two instances of human interevention; it's completely obvious that ever since the second exalted march (and even before that), the elves have been actively oppressed simply for being elves, and it's still going on. That is why the Dalish are forced to live as they do, and that is why the city elves live in Alienages. Humans do not allow the elves to exist on equal terms, which ensures that the elves have very little power to change their situation. The elven religion is outlawed, templars hunt their keepers, and whenever the city elves have tried to rebel against the situation they are forced to live in, they have been swiftly and mercilessly put down. By humans. They are being violently held down, and acknowledging that is just a statement of fact. It is that fact that takes away the elves' power to change their situation; not the statement. Though that doesn't mean that they will never find a way of being free from human oppression.

[Shechinah]

(to Patient.Zero) I can appreciate and understand his point but there is only so much the elves can do by themselves to better their lives and as seen them attempting to make lives better for themselves often wind up making things worse for themselves because of the racism they face. 

 

We are seeing a change and a growing recognition that elves are not inferior in Thedas but the reason elves are allowed to attend the university of Orlais, the reason Shianni can be made a Bann of the Denerim Alienage and other such things is because a human authority permitted it. Even in the cases of Briala who plays a good hand in the Game by developing a spy network through the eluvians and her general savy, she still needs to influence the nobility to give her people more say in the government. 

 

Yes, there is an elven component but there is a human componet as well and for things to better for the elves, both components need to work together.  

 

My apologies if I seem a bit crossed since that is not my intend and I'm actually very much enjoying this thread discussion 

[Junebug]

 

 

I wish I could upvote the last two things you said x100.

 

I really love all this discussion of fantastic racism—because it's true. The parts we've explored so far is made for and run by Humans. An example would be during the Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts quest—Human Inquisitors don't take a hit to their court approval and every non-Human does simply for existing. They also have way more convenient options (like not having to choose between Nevarra and Tevinter; they can help both). No amount of positive outlook or decision-making from elves or dwarves or anyone in a human-dominated society will change that unless a revolution of some sort happens. Which is something I'm kinda hoping for. Pretty excited for future games and seeing how Bioware will play this out.

[Patient.Zero]

I want to make clear that I do realize that the elves are being oppressed and that they should indeed be treated as equals in society be they Dalish or city elves. 

 

1. I brought up the of superiority and inferiority in an attempt to address both human and Dalish perspectives of the elven race in Thedas. For the most part, humans believe that elves are "less than" and Dalish believe that elves (who practice their religion) to be "better than". I was trying to say that neither of these perspectives is legitimate because the elves and humans are equally flawed. Each side has it's faults and each side is fully capable of correcting them. 

 

2. I wholeheartedly agree that the elves can be flawed and oppressed simultaneously, as well as that fact that these things would't stop them from being able to improve their situation. By pointing out the things the elves could have changed (the fall of Elvhenan and the spitting of their race) as well the things still in their power to change (having a nicer disposition toward those of their race with opposing religious beliefs) I meant to demonstrate this. I also know that elves will not be able to bring about change for themselves by themselves and that this change will not come quickly. 

 

3. When I mentioned the Imperium and the Chantry I did realize that these entities still have a hold on the elves, I just meant to say that while there has been is and still is external pressure on the elves such pressure has and is form within as well. 

 

@Shechinah 

You need not worry about coming off as cross, I to am enjoying this discussion as well : ) I'm learning a lot. I only wish that I were more capable of getting my point across. 

[Shechinah]

(to Patient.Zero) I always worry about that when I'm in a discussion especially a verbal one. It is a little easier in a non-verbal one because you can check your argument several times over before displaying it and sff better structure to it but the worry is still there.  

 

I thought this was a fascinating bit so I thought I'd share: According to the Wikipedia and I think this is either during or shortly after the Fall of the Dales; "Elves who accepted the Chantry's offered truce were required to accept the Maker and live in slums, known as the alienages, within human settlements, becoming the city elves. Some elves, however, refused to give up their worship or their dream of a homeland. These became the nomadic Dalish, retaining the name of their second lost homeland and vowing to keep elven, laguage and religion alive" 

 

It is likely why the Dalish of old developed what view they did of the city elves; they likely saw them as losing what essentially made someone elvhen; their culture, religion and refusal to submit. They perhaps saw the truce as a way of being enslaved again by conquerers. To them, the elves who accepted the truce were elves only by the blood in their veins and by their pointy ears. They might even have seen it as a betrayal of what had been fought for and won by Shartan and the other elves with Andraste. The elves who agreed to the truce were agreeing to live as lesser beings, live in alienages and agreeing to never choose any other religion or culture than that of the Maker and the Andrastian civilizations.

 

While the elves who agreed to the truce likely did so to save the lives of themselves and others, possibly because defeat was inevitable for some cities and their leadership believed surrender might spare them if only a little, it is not unthinkable that some elves and cities carried a sentiment, perhaps culturally, that it was better to die than to be conquered and possibly enslaved. 

 

Of course, this does not justify the view the Dalish modern and old have of the city elves but it could explain how the sentiment came to be.

 

The vhendahl, the hahren title and such were possibly only allowed to return and exist in the open after some time had passed and there was little need to worry it would become a symbol of defiance or something that could inspire resistance.   

 

     

[Doveberry]

I wish I could upvote the last two things you said x100.

 

Aw, my ego needed that today.

 

I really love all this discussion of fantastic racism—because it's true. The parts we've explored so far is made for and run by Humans. An example would be during the Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts quest—Human Inquisitors don't take a hit to their court approval and every non-Human does simply for existing. They also have way more convenient options (like not having to choose between Nevarra and Tevinter; they can help both). No amount of positive outlook or decision-making from elves or dwarves or anyone in a human-dominated society will change that unless a revolution of some sort happens. Which is something I'm kinda hoping for. Pretty excited for future games and seeing how Bioware will play this out.

 

Yes, I love the fact that Bioware have actually managed to create a realistic portrayal of social inequality. They've done it quite successfully with the mages and their situation as well. The fact that this has been done so well (along with many other interesting concepts) probably makes Dragon Age my favourite fantasy setting. Bioware have not only created a world where social inequality plays a big part, they've made me care about the issues as well. As evidenced by my SJW-rants in this thread. 

 

The elf thing is almost more interesting to me at this point than the mage thing, because it's been more under the radar in the games so far (and the mage thing is sort of finished after Inquisition, I guess). Even to the point where some people seem to have sort of missed that it's there, and just draw the conclusion that the Dalish must be awful people because they're mean to strangers. I'd argue that the Dalish have some very good reasons for acting the way they do. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

The Dalish are free. They can do what they like. I have no grounds to criticize them.

[In Exile]

I really love all this discussion of fantastic racism—because it's true. The parts we've explored so far is made for and run by Humans. An example would be during the Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts quest—Human Inquisitors don't take a hit to their court approval and every non-Human does simply for existing. They also have way more convenient options (like not having to choose between Nevarra and Tevinter; they can help both). No amount of positive outlook or decision-making from elves or dwarves or anyone in a human-dominated society will change that unless a revolution of some sort happens. Which is something I'm kinda hoping for. Pretty excited for future games and seeing how Bioware will play this out.

 

I will point out that this is not entirely true: human mage Inquisitors do get an approval penalty. Just not as substantial one as the other non-human races. 

[Junebug]

I will point out that this is not entirely true: human mage Inquisitors do get an approval penalty. Just not as substantial one as the other non-human races. 

True but, like Fragifera said, that's pretty much done with after the Inquisition. There will still be some prejudice because social justice doesn't occur overnight but it's still far less damning to be a Human mage as you said.

 

Aw, my ego needed that today.

Aww, I hope your day improves haha

 

Yes! I completely agree. My beef with the Dalish clans are how they hold themselves in such high regards over everybody else because I can relate on a very personal level.

Story time: I'm Vietnamese-Chinese (with French from my mom's side) and I live in a predominantly Chinese city and the next city over is Korean-dominated. I would often hear stuff like "Chinese are the true/best Asians" and "Koreans are the best Asians blah blah" for the other city. And hearing that so often, especially at a young age hurts! For a while, it made me question my culture. Then I used to get angry. Nowadays, I just roll my eyes when I hear it and try to block out those kind of people. When I run into all these accounts of Dalish clan elves saying "Dalish are the true elves", it really irks me. So I really feel for city elves and always find myself nodding whenever Sera or Solas talk about how Dalish clan elves are poopy heads when it comes to that.

 

Your rants are very appropriate for topics concerning social injustice—plus I make SJW rants all the time so it's nice stumbling upon a fellow ranter  Bioware offers a very good platform for similar rants. All we gotta do is change some words around and—boom. Point made. Plus, I find it really interesting how people react to the social struggles in the game.

[OriginalTibs]

You don't choose who you become; you are shaped by the environment that you exist in. In Dragon Age, that environment is almost exclusively controlled by humans. That doesn't mean that every individual human is to blame, but humans as a group definitely are. The only reasonable approach for the elves (those of them that even have the option) is to distance themselves from their oppressors and try to create an existence on their own terms. That is what the Dalish are trying to do; they did choose differently. Elves cannot be equals in the current human world, and they do not have the social or military power to force humanity to treat them like people.

 

Suggesting that acknowledging the fact that the elves are being oppressed would somehow take away their ability to choose their own future is just silly, bordering on cruel. By definition, an oppressed group is being held down by another group, and that is a fact that doesn't go away just because it's uncomfortable. You cannot ignore oppression into oblivion; you need to start by acknowledging it and understanding it. Admitting that you are being victimized by others does not make the situation your fault; nor does it mean that you have to let that victimhood define you. It is simply a realization of fact; a necessary basis for any real struggle for change. Only when you have identified and understood your enemy can you begin to fight against it in an effective manner.

 

The humans are the ones standing in the way of the elven people. That is a simple fact, and one that can only be changed in one of two ways; either the humans stop being such asshats, or the elves rise up and take the power that the humans have denied them for so long. Both scenarios are unlikely, and the latter would likely again result in social inequality, just skewed in the elves' favour instead of the humans'. It seems to me that until the humans start realising that it's pretty uncool to oppress everybody else, the Dalish have made the only reasonable choice. They still have to play by humanity's rules, but they have chosen to define their own existence as far as they possibly can. They stay away, avoid detection and look after their own. It's not exactly ideal, but they have done the best they could in a bad situation.

 

Finally, It really rubs me the wrong way when people imply that just admitting that oppression exists somehow takes power away from the oppressed. A factual analysis of an unfair situation gives power to the oppressed; not the other way around. The oppressors are the ones stealing other people's power, and one of the most effective ways of hiding that is by saying things like:

They ARE victims. That doesn't mean that they can't fight to change that situation. Pretending that the problem doesn't exist obscures the issue in a very sinister manner (that only benefits the oppressors), but it's still there, and people suffer because of it.

Actually we do choose who we become. We choose to be victims, or we do not. Choosing to not be a victim may often not end well if there really isn't much of an alternative, but the choice can be made. Choosing to not be a victim can cost a person everything else.

 

It is not denying nor ignoring victimization, nor pretending it is other than it is, to say that no one has to be a victim. There is more to being a victim than being less powerful.

 

But it is certainly true that enforcing your sovereignty from a position of weakness is unlikely to end in your 'winning' anything beyond personal sovereignty. If that last moment of defiance is what is most valued, then it can be achieved. The question is in what the person values. If you value family over yourself you can be made victim. If you love you can be made victim. But there you are choosing what you value more than you negatively value victimhood.

 

A person who would deny victimhood may have to either kill or die, or worse, let others die to prevent it, but that choice is still possible.

 

Of course oppression exists. It just doesn't exist in a vacuum. There are more parties than one to oppression. And yes there ARE victims, but it doesn't empower any victim to tell them they are not responsible for themselves. They ARE responsible for themselves. It may hurt to be responsible for your condition. It may be fatal. But unless you are responsible for your situation you have no chance to liberate yourself. Liberty often requires sacrifice. Liberty is seldom painless.

 

And so long as living beings are not identical there will be social inequality.

[OriginalTibs]

(to OriginalTibs) The city elves have chosen to rebel as seen with Halamshiral in the "Masked Empire" and in the Denerim Alienage in Origins and the former resulted in the elven slums being burned to the ground with the elves slaughtered and while the second one fared better, that was only in terms of more of the population surviving and mind you, it still resulted in an orphanage being massacred so brutally it left the Veil weakened.   

 

Individuals elves from the alienage have also tried to better things for themselves through hard work and savings even to the point some could afford to move outside the alienage but as brought up in the codex: "Sometimes a family gets a good break and they buy a house in the docks, or the outskirts of town. If they're lucky, they come back to the alienage after the looters have burned their house"

 

They are victims of racial oppression: "Racial oppression is burdening a specific race with unjust or cruel restraints or impositions"

There is racial oppression, but Elves do not have to be willing victims. They can follow the example of Cole and put turnips in the fire. They can fling their sabot into the machinery and bring the whole machine that would subjugate them to a grinding halt. Where the law is unjust they are not lawful. Even imprisoned and bound to red lyrium the elf mage in defiance chanted in an expression of liberty.

 

We are not victims unless we choose to be.

 

We can die rather than be victims... unless we have children. Then we mostly choose to be victims until they are grown, because we are clear in our values. Then we are used to comfort, and tend to grow into wrinkly bent victims.

[Junebug]

Actually we do choose who we become. We choose to be victims, or we do not. Choosing to not be a victim may often not end well if there really isn't much of an alternative, but the choice can be made. Choosing to not be a victim can cost a person everything else.

 

And yes there ARE victims, but it doesn't empower any victim to tell them they are not responsible for themselves. They ARE responsible for themselves. It may hurt to be responsible for your condition. It may be fatal. But unless you are responsible for your situation you have no chance to liberate yourself.

I cannot express the amount of "what" I have bottling up right now.

 

Alienage elves aren't responsible for being thrown into unsanitary, poor living conditions. Dalish clan elves aren't responsible for being ostracized from society thus being forced to live as nomads or risk of pissing off humans because "lol my papers say it's not ur land mate." Humans are responsible for both of these things and they have far more power to do something about it—to choose whether or not to be better allies. Living complacently with a positive outlook on life (aka willful ignorance) isn't going to solve your problems—and that's not what the elves are doing. They are very well aware of their own experiences, made evident during your quests especially in DA2. There's only so much "responsibility" elves can take and things they can do for themselves without the help of a higher power. Humans have that responsibility to extend equal rights to the elves since they are in a position of power—or have equal representation within their ranks. But there's such a strong prejudice against non-Humans because of Human unwillingness to relinquish that power. Short of starting a civil war, which will completely wipe out every elf, what else can they do?

[In Exile]

True but, like Fragifera said, that's pretty much done with after the Inquisition. There will still be some prejudice because social justice doesn't occur overnight but it's still far less damning to be a Human mage as you said.

 

That's not true anymore than it will be true that Orlais will stop looking at Ostwick nobles as provincials following the Winter's Ball. Human mages are mages first, humans second. That's not quite the same as being wholly excluded from a privileged group, but people too frequently confuse the overlapping levels of status that correlate with social power.

 

A village of illiterate human peasants won't kindly welcome a human mage like they would a human merchant just because Divine Victoria said that it wouldn't be an offence in the eyes of the Maker for that human mage to be in their village. 

[Junebug]

 

I don't think anyone was arguing against that Like I said, social justice doesn't happen overnight but the progress toward equality for (Human) mages happened far faster than it has (or hasn't) for elves—can't say the same for Qunari mages because they're cruel to their own but that is neither here nor there.

[Patient.Zero]

It just occurs to me that I haven't asked why elves are being subjugated in the first place. If Andraste, revered as she is was perfectly fine with elves (as seen by her forming a strong allegiance with Shartan and giving the Dales to the elves as a home) what could have justified the exalted marches for the Chantry? 

[Ashagar]

Well you have the Incident at the village that set off the powder keg of tensions stemming from the elves refusing to help stop the darkspawn and general religious tensions, and started the war between Orlais and the dales which went much better for the elves then the humans at first.

 

In fact the elves apparently had aggressively and quickly overrun half Orlais and sacked a number of cities including the capital at the beginning of the war before losing their momentum by stretching themselves too thin about the time the chantry got around to declaring holy war on the elves after which the elves got nailed by a religious remotivated enemy, a sizable number of whom had their homes sacked and burned by the elves. 

[In Exile]

It just occurs to me that I haven't asked why elves are being subjugated in the first place. If Andraste, revered as she is was perfectly fine with elves (as seen by her forming a strong allegiance with Shartan and giving the Dales to the elves as a home) what could have justified the exalted marches for the Chantry? 

 

A long time and a lot of political ill between between neighbouring countries. As to the religious bit, well, there was a reason the Chantry expunged references to Shartan. 

[OriginalTibs]

I cannot express the amount of "what" I have bottling up right now.

 

Alienage elves aren't responsible for being thrown into unsanitary, poor living conditions. Dalish clan elves aren't responsible for being ostracized from society thus being forced to live as nomads or risk of pissing off humans because "lol my papers say it's not ur land mate." Humans are responsible for both of these things and they have far more power to do something about it—to choose whether or not to be better allies. Living complacently with a positive outlook on life (aka willful ignorance) isn't going to solve your problems—and that's not what the elves are doing. They are very well aware of their own experiences, made evident during your quests especially in DA2. There's only so much "responsibility" elves can take and things they can do for themselves without the help of a higher power. Humans have that responsibility to extend equal rights to the elves since they are in a position of power—or have equal representation within their ranks. But there's such a strong prejudice against non-Humans because of Human unwillingness to relinquish that power. Short of starting a civil war, which will completely wipe out every elf, what else can they do?

What you have bottled up affects your perception. It is called emotional bias, and you are responsible for it.

 

What elves can do is to own responsibility for what they do and how they respond to the environment. Ghandi and later Martin Luther King demonstrated in reality what owning their responsibility can accomplish. They were not victims even though they were oppressed.

 

Bestowing responsibility for the elves on the humans asserts that only humans have the responsibility for free will and elves are no better than pets. I say elves have free will and the responsibility for themselves that free will requires.

[Addai]

The city elves hate them for a good reason...they weren't putting any effort...to help the elves being...enslaved...and living in poor conditions. I resent the same kind of people who act like that in real life. "Help yourself by getting yourself out of your bad situation by accepting to let us convert you before helping you" sounds like a step down from the Qun who physically step in to provide aid (but a step up from complete ignorance I guess). And if the elves they save don't want to convert to the Qun, it's perfectly fine.
 
Sundermount was literally north of Kirkwall.

I really don't get this. The Dalish are barely surviving themselves. City elves who flee to the Dalish and are willing to assimilate are allowed to join the clans. What else are they supposed to do?

I disagree that Humans are the root of the problem for Dalish clans and city elves. Humans may wish elves were mere victims, but the responsibility, a.k.a. 'root of the problem' for a people is ultimately who they have chosen to be. The humans can be a significant environmental variable, but not root cause.City elves could choose defiant rebellion. Dalish elves could choose to identify with their alienage brethren. Or choose better than I propose, but the point is they choose to be as they are.

The advantage is that they can therefore change, difficult and unlikely though that may be. Determining that humans are the root cause denies the elves the agency to choose differently. You steal their liberty with the theft of their responsibility.

The elves are not victims, they are simply differently flawed than humans.

If someone puts a gun to your head and pulls the trigger, have you chosen to be dead?