131 réponses à ce sujet

[SolNebula]

Hello folks

 

So the aim of this thread is to debate on which type of ammunition system would you prefer on ME:Next.

Would you prefer the classic overheating system? Or the thermal clips? Or maybe you have a new idea that you would like to share with the community?

 

I did a poll and look forward for your vote.

 

http://strawpoll.me/4148907

 

If you pick the third option please provide explanation for your choice.

 

Also feel free to leave a comment regarding your thoughts on the matter and why would you prefer one system over the other.

 

My take on the issue is that I would prefer the return to the old overheating system. I think it feels more sci-fi over the thermal clips ammunitions system. While I agree that end-game in ME1 with the right upgrades, the overheating system was broken, seeing how ME3 handled the Particle Rifle(PR) and the Lancer provided me hope they can still implement interesting and unique weapons while retaining the old overheating system. I admit these type of weapons in ME3 provided an unique feel of being more alienish (when referring to PR) or ME traditional feel (with the Lancer).

 

Since ME:Next seems to be about returning to the roots of old ME, I think this could be a nice opportunity.

Of course this does not mean they should outright abolish thermal clips but maybe having a mixed system with both type of weapons being around.

You could also justify the old type weapons reintroduction due to the losses and logistical problems after to the Reaper wars.

 

What do you think? Please vote to the poll and feel free to comment.

 

Thanks

[Ajensis]

I voted for ME1's heat system. It felt different and refreshing from the usual spend-ammo-find-ammo that almost every shooter has. However, I'd want it to be improved upon a lot, as it wasn't exactly perfect in ME1.

 

I'm also open to a hybrid system. Someone proposed such a thing on these forums and it sounded intriguing

[SolNebula]

I voted for ME1's heat system. It felt different and refreshing from the usual spend-ammo-find-ammo that almost every shooter has. However, I'd want it to be improved upon a lot, as it wasn't exactly perfect in ME1.

 

I'm also open to a hybrid system. Someone proposed such a thing on these forums and it sounded intriguing

 

I agree with you it opens new possibilities and variety in weapons, plus it would also free the dev from focusing on putting those damn ammo box into the right places when the players need them.

People using the Harrier know what I'm referring to.

 

An hybrid system wouldn't be bad either. Like instead of having ammo type (piiercing, cryo, inciendiary) as powers you have them as proper (and powerful) munition clips that you purchase or find around the game. Once they are depleted you return to the reliable (and less powerful) overheating system. I would welcome something like this. This will make munition type much more powerful and rare making it vital to use it at the right moment with the right enemy.

[Wulfram]

It'll be kind of ridiculous if all the people in this galaxy drop compatible thermal clips.

I think it'd be nice to see a variety of systems, allowing the player to choose. One could even make the ammo system a gun mod.

[CannotCompute]

All I know is if the next ME game will indeed take place in unexplored parts of the galaxy, it would make 0 sense if the enemies over there dropped compatible thermal clips.

 

It was already weird enough finding clips at places like the Collector's Base in ME2.

[Loufi]

I voted for the classic overheating system, I liked not having to worry about my ammo-consumption in ME1. And, as you said, it feels more sci-fi.

 

But ideally, I would opt for an hybrid system with both type of weapons, like in ME3.

[SolNebula]

It'll be kind of ridiculous if all the people in this galaxy drop compatible thermal clips.

I think it'd be nice to see a variety of systems, allowing the player to choose. One could even make the ammo system a gun mod.

 

That's a very valid point. Probably BW should explore to alternative ways of making weapons different. Alternative ammos, or weapons parts. I really would like each weapons to be different. I liked the Particle AR because instead of having ammo, it projected a beam which you need to keep active in order to be deadly. I would like more alienish type weapons not just in mere aesthetical sense but also in their use.

Seems to me most weapons were designed with a human mentality.

[BabyPuncher]

Seems to me most weapons were designed with a human mentality.

 

Humans are very creative at killing one another. You're not going to come up with many ideas that humans haven't thought of. All weapons come down to inflicting energy on an object in some form or fashion. There's only so many ways to do that.

[Vazgen]

I voted for another system. I'd prefer classic overheating system working alongside thermal clips. The time that gun will require to cool down will be increased, to about 10 seconds with the ability to cancel the cooldown by ejecting a thermal clip. The number of thermal clips will be limited to, say, 5 from the start. There will be possibility to either increase the number of available thermal clips or to reduce the cooldown time. Same weapon differences will still be present, though they will require some fine balancing. So a weapon like a Saber will overheat if you fire, say, 3 shots in quick succession but you'll need to shoot, say, 70 shots from Lancer for it to overheat.

[RedCaesar97]

I voted for the thermal clip system like ME2 and ME3.

 

I like it for a few reasons, but mainly, it allows for a greater variety of unique and (potentially) useful weapons.

 

Think of how guns are differentiated in games. They have characteristics like:

 - fire type (automatic, semi-automatic)

 - shot fired per trigger (single-shot, to-round burst, three-round burst, five round burst)

 - clip size

 - spare clips

 - fire delay

 - accuracy

 - stability

 

If you go to an overheating system, you are eliminating two characteristics: clip size and spare clips. Now the overheat mechanic is essentially "clip size", but it comes with another problem: what about single-shot weapons?

 

What about single-shot weapons such as the Mantis, Claymore, and Executioner pistol? How would the overheat mechanic work for those guns? The overheat in Mass Effect 1 was the same for all weapons. The overheat mechanic would essentially makes the Claymore useless. 

 

Reloading is faster than waiting for the gun to cool down. Snipers may not care so much if they have to wait for their Mantis to cool down after shooting it once, but reloading it is faster which means you can kill enemies faster. For non-single-shot weapons, reloading means you can fire more bullets in a shorter amount of time than you could with an overheat mechanic. Actually, this applies to all guns.

 

 

 

 

 

Another point to consider: Do the other game mechanics make more sense with overheating or thermal clips?

Consider:

 - In Mass Effect 1, most powers provided only crowd control. Enemies had a lot of health (and possibly shields) and a lot of organic enemies could activate immunity. This meant you needed a lot of ammo to kill enemies. The overheating mechanic made sense since it essentially gave you a lot of ammo to kill those enemies.

 - In Mass Effect 2, enemies how have less health and protections, and weapons had damage boosts to different protections. Some powers could deal a fair amount of damage, and other crowd-control powers (such as Pull and Cryo Blast) also provided damage boosts. This meant you needed less ammo. Also, powers cooled down much faster and were on a global cool down. All this meant that you were shooting a lot less so the overheat mechanic was not needed. 

 - In Mass Effect 3, powers cooled down even faster and power combos meant you were dealing even more damage to enemies with powers, if not killing them outright. You did not even need to fire your gun at all. Again, overheating was not needed and the thermal clips were a better system.

 

 

And one last observation: Cowardly snipers complained the most about the thermal clip system. (Waaaaaaah! I can't hid behind cover and snipe all day! Waaaaaaaaah!) Seriously, shotgunners loved the thermal clip system, especially the Vanguards.

[RedCaesar97]

I voted for another system. I'd prefer classic overheating system working alongside thermal clips. The time that gun will require to cool down will be increased, to about 10 seconds with the ability to cancel the cooldown by ejecting a thermal clip. The number of thermal clips will be limited to, say, 5 from the start. There will be possibility to either increase the number of available thermal clips or to reduce the cooldown time. Same weapon differences will still be present, though they will require some fine balancing. So a weapon like a Saber will overheat if you fire, say, 3 shots in quick succession but you'll need to shoot, say, 70 shots from Lancer for it to overheat.

 

BioWare actually had a hybrid system in ME2 during development. Ultimately I think a hybrid between the two systems sucks since it essentially ignores the penalties of both systems:

 - Oh no, i overheated! Oh wait, no I didn't!

 - Oh no, I ran out of clips! Oh wait, no I didn't!

[AsheraII]

Please yes for the classic overheating mechanic! It was an entirely unique flavor for a shooter, very much preferrable over the regular ammo mechanics that practically every other game already has.

[Vazgen]

BioWare actually had a hybrid system in ME2 during development. Ultimately I think a hybrid between the two systems sucks since it essentially ignores the penalties of both systems:

 - Oh no, i overheated! Oh wait, no I didn't!

 - Oh no, I ran out of clips! Oh wait, no I didn't!

That's why I suggested to limit thermal clips. If you run out of clips you are stuck with 10 second cooldowns on the weapons which sucks. Of course, this would also require not to have thermal clips dropped by every husk out there.

 

I would've removed pickups outright

[BabyPuncher]

the regular ammo mechanics that practically every other game already has.

 

Probably because it's simple, effective, and satisfying.

[AsheraII]

Probably because it's simple, effective, and satisfying.

As was the overheat system, but the overheat system also changed the mechanics of combat, changing the pace of the game and allowing it to stand apart from other games. Firing a gun was as much a matter of cooldown management as using an ability. Several encounters in ME1 required good timing of your weapon overheating, or you'd have to dive for cover and attempt the encounter again. ME2 & 3 were more spray&pray - quickscope - spray&pray some more.

[BabyPuncher]

Here's a quick and very simple question.

 

Is waiting several long seconds each time for your gun to cool down actually any fun? At all?

 

Remember, the overwhelming majority of combat in the game is not supposed to be difficult. It's 'popcorn fights,' as the developers call them. Combat that is not meant to seriously challenge the player. And therefore combat where the player is  unlikely to bother with any sort of tactical considerations because it's simply not needed.

[themikefest]

I voted for ME1 system. 

[BabyPuncher]

As was the overheat system, but the overheat system also changed the mechanics of combat, changing the pace of the game and allowing it to stand apart from other games. Firing a gun was as much a matter of cooldown management as using an ability. Several encounters in ME1 required good timing of your weapon overheating, or you'd have to dive for cover and attempt the encounter again. ME2 & 3 were more spray&pray - quickscope - spray&pray some more.

 

Just like how in pretty much every single shooter ever you can run out of ammunition and have to 'dive for cover' to reload? Just like how every other shooter you have 'magazine management' instead of cooldown management?

[SolNebula]

Probably because it's simple, effective, and satisfying.

 

On simple and effective I could agree on a developer standpoint, however is very unlikely that alien races would share the same weapon system and technologies. In real life turians, humans and salarians would have totally different technologies. ME made them having the same techs just for gaming designing sake.

I would like more reality in this regard. Why would a turian gun have the same clip as the human one?? Unless we are at a NATO level point of cooperation were every equipment is pretty much standardized.

 

The satisfying part is pretty much a personal issue. I don't find satisfying running out of ammo. In this regard your point is as good as mine.

[themikefest]

Here's a quick and very simple question.

 

Is waiting several long seconds each time for your gun to cool down actually any fun? At all?

 

If you fire in short bursts, the weapon would never overheat

[BabyPuncher]

On simple and effective I could agree on a developer standpoint, however is very unlikely that alien races would share the same weapon system and technologies. In real life turians, humans and salarians would have totally different technologies. ME made them having the same techs just for gaming designing sake.

I would like more reality in this regard. Why would a turian gun have the same clip as the human one?? Unless we are at a NATO level point of cooperation were every equipment is pretty much standardized.

 

I really doubt the technologies would be 'totally different.' Heat sinks are not complex technology, and it would be easy enough for a professional to modify that sort of thing.

 

But sure, you could have the player carry around a half dozen different kinds of ammo. The question is if that would really accomplish anything other than being a headache. It would also require guns to be spread more-or-less equally across races, with creates problems of it's own with art, modeling, animations, lore, and so forth. 

[God]

Here's a quick and very simple question.

 

Is waiting several long seconds each time for your gun to cool down actually any fun? At all?

 

Remember, the overwhelming majority of combat in the game is not supposed to be difficult. It's 'popcorn fights,' as the developers call them. Combat that is not meant to seriously challenge the player. And therefore combat where the player is  unlikely to bother with any sort of tactical considerations because it's simply not needed.

 

That's no fun at all. That's what you want. 

 

David, when are you going to learn that not everyone wants what you want?

 

Make the game difficult. Make it challenging. On gameplay and narrative decisions. Let the player be punished for making mistakes. 

[AsheraII]

Just like how in pretty much every single shooter ever you can run out of ammunition and have to 'dive for cover' to reload? Just like how every other shooter you have 'magazine management' instead of cooldown management?

That's one way to play: go all out, shoot like crazy untill your weapon overheats, then dive for cover.

Or, pace your shots with the weapons' cooldown and fire slower but more continuous, weaving other abilities into these short cooldown moments.

 

I wasn't too fond of wasting time backpedaling to replennish ammunition at the occasional respawning heatclip either, by the way. Same thing as waiting for a weapon too fully cool down. But somehow, the cooldown/overheat actually made me think about when to place my shots, where to place them, and what abilities to throw inbetween them. ME1 simply didn't have spammable attacks, spamming a button was punished quite severely by the overheating.

[Vazgen]

Uhm, yeah, like if you couldn't shoot for hours without even a hint of overheating in ME1... Frictionless Materials go a long way. Not to mention Marksman ability. ME1 combat in the endgame is shooting the bullet sponge until it dies without ever worrying about overheating.

[fraggle]

I voted Thermal Clips System, I just had more fun with it, even though I also liked the idea of weapons overheating.

To be honest I wouldn't mind having both types somehow included in the new game. If the focus is on exploring we could find different weapon types  according to the respective species on various planets. Some species could have developed the thermal clip system over the years, others overheating system. Everyone gets their wish