131 réponses à ce sujet

[StealthGamer92]

I actually think ammo collection should be more of an issue going forward. I liked playing Citadel on Insanity at the very beginning where all you have is a silencer pistol with limited ammo. It really makes you time your shots and play smart if you aren't a biotic or engineer. I think BioWare makes the experience far too easy when they just have rounds of ammunition laying all over the place to be picked up. It's also a major cue/indication when a big fight is about to come up.

No doubt. But honestly it depends on the player wether or not a hetsink system is op, like I always fire in 3-5 round burst with any gun so after I got past the beginer ME1 guns I never overheated a gun and I rarely overheated them before then anyway. I'd love it if they just modified the current system to disipate heat after a few seconds so heat sinks felt like heat sinks instead of magazines, and if you run out your gun would still shoot but each shot build up alot more heat than if you had a heat sink.

[kold213]

A combination of ME1's system AND ME2/3's system would be best. Heatsinks are interchangeable, but will gradually cool on their own.

[BabyPuncher]

Rail Extension lengthens the barrel so as to add a longer magnetic rail, whereas the the High Cal. Barrel destroys how ME guns work in the first place by letting the gun shoot larger projectiles than normal(which in lore is a metal shaving from an internal block about the size of a grain of sand). It's one of those lil details that matter to some(myself included).

 

They didn't say high caliber barrel. They said rail extensions vs barrel extensions.

[StealthGamer92]

They didn't say high caliber barrel. They said rail extensions vs barrel extensions.

Oh, then no real difference I know of except Rail Extension sounds cooler.

[BabyPuncher]

It does sound cooler.

[Dr. rotinaj]

I disagree because, again, an unlimited source of ammunition is one of the major reasons that broke ME1 combat. Yes, the shooter mechanics were atrocious and all Insanity difficulty offered was enemies with larger health bars that hit harder (I don't miss the Krogans in that game...). However, the ammunition equally contributed to bad gameplay that didn't make a lot of sense nor was it practical for balancing. When people have a limit to how much they can use a weapon, it changes how they approach the experience. There was no risk in ME1, especially once you leveled up all the weapons and maxed out your level. It actually became quite difficult to overheat some weapons by endgame.

 

But I don't believe that those were problems with the overheating concept. The overhearing was implemented into a game that required obscene amounts of ammunition. The balancing (or lack thereof) of weapon overheating was in line with the rest of the game's combat mechanics. Just as suddenly putting thermal clips and limited ammunition would not work in ME1, neither would direct adaptation of ME1's weapon overheating work in a faster paced shooter. A hybrid that I would propose would need to be balanced such that weapon overheating introduces a layer of tactical depth. Deciding to wait through longer cooldowns so you can save thermal clips for a boss, or spamming thermal clips so you can unleash a stream of gunfire on a specific enemy, or saving them for when you get jumped by a melee enemy, etc.

[Nitrocuban]

Unloading a clip without the fear of overheating is much more fun than exactly timing to stop and wait right before overheating imho.

Not saying I don't love my PPR, but sometimes I just want to spray a couple of Typhoon clips down a hallway without thinking about overheating and stuff.

[Pasquale1234]

Sometimes I want to spray a lot of shots down a hallway without worrying about conserving clips.

Or go through an entire mission without having to run around and look for replacement clips after every battle.

[Revan Reborn]

Sometimes I want to spray a lot of shots down a hallway without worrying about conserving clips.

Or go through an entire mission without having to run around and look for replacement clips after every battle.

That's why there is a Casual difficulty... More ammunition should be prevalent. For Insanity... people should actually have to play smart and time their shots wisely...

[Nitrocuban]

Was ammo ever a problem in Me2/ME3?

I honestly can't remember any mission even when using the Harrier.

 

Yeah it all depends on balance, level design and stuff, both weapon types could be done right and BW changed from speical-snowflake-mode to standard-shooter-mode.

 

What I'm saying is: don't restrict the players with, give them both. A couple of special weapons or a weapon mod (with some drawback like taking both mod slots or lowering the firing rate)...

Like the weapon type restrictions in ME1 vs. free weapon selection with cooldown penalty in ME3.

[KaiserShep]

I actually prefer ME1's cool-down system, though once you got the heatsink mod in your high level Spectre weapon, you could basically fire endlessly at just about any enemy and kill it long before the weapon overheated. Of course, this makes the weapon hugely overpowered. If I had a Harrier with a similar mod, not even the reapers could really stand in my way.

[Mr GravyTrain]

If I had to choose one or the other I would go with the ME1 version due to its uniqueness among shooters.  However, I would not mind if they included both types in the next game similar to the ME3 Lancer & Particle Rifle to give players more options.

[Pasquale1234]

That's why there is a Casual difficulty... More ammunition should be prevalent. For Insanity... people should actually have to play smart and time their shots wisely...

The need to reload and replenish thermal clips is not related to difficulty. Whether I am playing on casual (which I rarely do, because it's boring), Insanity, or somewhere in-between, I still try to conserve clips and hunt for replacements after every battle. That is an aspect of gameplay I do not find enjoyable at any difficulty level.

I could also argue that needing to manage weapon overheating without thermal clips puts more onus on the player to control one's rate of fire - thus adding to the difficulty.

[Mandalorkian]

I advoate an union of the two systems. Have the guns follow the ME1 system while allowing the player to spend a thermal clip to immediately refresh the heat sink as of ME2. This seems to make the most sense to me, as it's logical to imagine that the heat from a single shot wouldn't remain after a minute of no action. During the two years between ME1 and ME2, I can see why they thought that rapidly firing to build heat in the heat sink before ejecting the heat sink for a fresh one would allow battles to go quicker as soldiers wouldn't have to wait for their weapons to cool before continuing the life-and-death-situation. However, it is also viable to allow weapons to cool between battles and save the thermal clips for when stuck in the middle of a fierce battle with overheated weapons. I think this method is the most efficient and logical to happen in-universe. After all, why does it seem that thermal clips are never retrieved, cooled and reused?

[spinachdiaper]

ME1 ammo system with infrequent found clips that give a temporary cool down reduction

[Golden_Persona]

I liked how ME2 did the ammo system best. On insanity a lot of the challenge came from trying to find clips, which added an element of resource management which was awesome. If this is a region of space that's more hostile then having limited ammo would help build up the hostile tension. ME3 didn't have that tension because spare clips gave you more ammo, every enemy seemed to drop them, and even the Black Widow could get 40 something bullets in its mag which was OP.

 

There are ways to do an ammo system in the new region of space that can be used just as easily to handwave the heavier shooter elements of the game. Maybe all the guns you find and use are from the new galaxy because the MWG guns weren't effective on the Khet, the supposed main enemies of the next game. Would give our characters a reason to adapt to using new weaponry. Would also allow Bioware to get magnificently creative when it comes to weapon designs. It would also make sense if blueprints and crafting are indeed a real thing.

 

ME1's combat system is pure joy for me, and it really says something when my favorite gun in ME3 aside from the Black Widow is a gun meant to be a throwback to the first game, the Lancer. If they can bring ME1's cooldown system while giving us the full weapon list from ME3 I'll be very much content. I also kind of hope ME1 shotgun physics return because there is nothing like shooting someone point blank in the face with a shotgun and watching them fly across the room in comedic fashion.

[Heimdall]

While I appreciate the novelty of the cool down system, I generally felt the clip system was more fun to play with.

[Torgette]

I think if you're in a new untamed galaxy that you're not going to just find thermal clips laying on the ground! I think a mix of 1+2/3 would work, upgradeable thermal clips that get stored for re-use/re-cycling.

[RedCaesar97]

I have expressed my preference for the thermal clip system in the past and in this thread.

 

Now I am not against a return of the overheat system, but the crux of the argument for the overheat system seems to be "I do not like running out of ammo!" which I think is kind of dumb. It is certainly unique and I enjoy playing with the overheat system in ME1 from time to time. But ultimately I think it leads to less weapon variety.

 

Now the weapon overheat mechanic can work decently well with low damage, high rate-of-fire weapons like most assault rifles, pistols, and SMGs. These weapons tend to have large clip sizes, so an overheat mechanic could translate well if implemented. However, it becomes somewhat of an issue with other weapons, particularly weapons built around high burst damage. It would still work with some or most shotguns and sniper rifles, but it becomes a big issue with the outlier weapons.

 

Consider:

1. The Claymore and Raider. Two of my favorite guns. These guns are built around having low clip sizes or 1 and 2 shots respectively. These guns are meant to kill most enemies in 1-2 shots at close range, then reload as you move to your next target.

 

The overheat mechanic is meant to punish you for overheating your weapon by forcing you to wait several seconds for the weapon to cool down. An overheat mechanic would make the Claymore and Raider useless weapons, since you could kill one guy quickly but then have to wait 4+ seconds while your gun cools down; you can reload quicker than that with thermal clips.

 

I see two ways around this, but both bring significant problems to weapon balance:

Option 1: You reduce the cooldown time for certain weapons. 

 

This option essentially gives the Claymore/Raider cooldown times equivalent to reloading times. However this can create an issue where the Claymore/Raider become better than all other shotguns since they can simply kill more enemies faster than all other shotguns. 

 

Option 2: Give the Claymore/Raider a decimal point more than 1 or 2 shots before overheating. 

 

So instead of 1 shot to overheat the Claymore, give it a 1.1 to 1.9 shots before overheating. Same with Raider, give it 2.1 to 2.9 shots before overheating. I see this as the same problem as option 1 though, where it becomes about shoot > wait a short while > shoot > wait a short while... making it indisputably better than all other shotguns, and then we are back to the same problems.

 

 

2. One-shot sniper rifles.

 

Mantis, Widow, Javelin. Right now, other than weight, the only real difference between these guns is damage. With overheating, you are essentially going back to ME1-style tiered weapons where you have a hierarchy of Mantis > Widow > Javelin. Instead of trying to differentiate these guns in different ways, the overheat mechanic would essentially make the Mantis and Widow obsolete.

 

 

3. Chargeable weapons.

 

How would chargeable weapons work with an overheat mechanic? Arc Pistol, Chakram Launcher, Geth Plasma Shotgun. These guns do more damage when charged, and some use more ammo when charged.

 

How would this work with an overheat mechanic? When charging, does the heat stop at a certain point, or does it keep heating up until you fire or it overheats? 

 

 

4. Reload cancelling.

 

with the overheat mechanic, you could never reload-cancel anymore. A lot of players like reload cancelling, particularly with the low-shot weapons like the Claymore and Javelin.

 

 

 

 

This is why I want a thermal clip system. If you want to have some overheating weapons like ME3 did with the Prothean Particle Rifle, Collector SMG, and Lancer, I can live with that. (I would dislike it, but I can live with it if they feel balanced in some way like very low damage. Personally, I would like the ME3 Avenger and ME3 to switch stats -- and sound effects -- and make the Avenger overheat instead of use thermal clips).

 

 

And proposing a hybrid system, whereby weapons overheat but you can bypass the cooldown with thermal clips, is a dumb proposal. What you are essentially saying is "I do not want to ever run out of ammo or reload my weapon!" because... you suck at games? No seriously, why do you want that system? The overheat system is supposed to punish you for firing too much at once, while the thermal clip system is supposed to punish you for missing with a lot of shots or overly-relying on one weapon too much. You basically want all the perks of both systems but without the drawbacks of either system.

[We'll bang okay]

Both. like how it was going to be, you could reload or wait for the gun to vent 

[StealthGamer92]

 

 

And proposing a hybrid system, whereby weapons overheat but you can bypass the cooldown with thermal clips, is a dumb proposal. What you are essentially saying is "I do not want to ever run out of ammo or reload my weapon!" because... you suck at games? No seriously, why do you want that system? The overheat system is supposed to punish you for firing too much at once, while the thermal clip system is supposed to punish you for missing with a lot of shots or overly-relying on one weapon too much. You basically want all the perks of both systems but without the drawbacks of either system.

Can't speak for others but I just want the hybrid because it makes the lore work instead of breaking it like ME2&3's heat sink=magazine. In the description of ME2 it said we got the Thermal clips because we were firing more damage focussed less ballanced projectile, well this shouldn't have changed the way heat disapated except for the time it took to cool down because the guns still were useing heat sinks which were in ME1 guns just not ejectable.

[Pasquale1234]

I have expressed my preference for the thermal clip system in the past and in this thread.
 
Now I am not against a return of the overheat system, but the crux of the argument for the overheat system seems to be "I do not like running out of ammo!" which I think is kind of dumb.

My distaste for the thermal clip system has other bases:
-- I don't enjoy running around after every battle to pick up thermal clips. It breaks the urgency of the mission's pacing and is generally unfun.
-- Thermal clips seem out of place in some areas. It makes some of the levels feel more like... video game shooting galleries rather than natural environments.
-- Lorewise, it's a step backward.
-- Skillwise, it favors player aim over firing rate management.
-- Running out of clips or relying on clip availability at the mission site means my character does not properly prepare for the mission at hand. Role-playing actually matters to some people who are playing role-playing games.
-- Weapon cooldown goes hand in hand with power cooldowns - which also became ridiculously fast by ME3.
-- It also restricts some playstyles.

I'll try to explain that last bit: I sometimes play characters who won't rezz fallen squadmates. If squadmates fall in battle, I need to finish the battle alone. I get through most missions using only my primary weapon, but when squadmates fall, I often need to switch to a secondary and sometimes tertiary weapon. With ME3's weight system, I carry these weapons only as backups, and pay a price in power cooldowns - and it is entirely because of the thermal clip system (and my preference for not rezzing fallen squadmates).

I have fond memories of my first play of the Citadel DLC. Once my soldier found that Lancer, she carried nothing else for the rest of the game, and was delighted to once again have the challenge of managing weapon overheating without having to constantly chase thermal clips.
 

It is certainly unique and I enjoy playing with the overheat system in ME1 from time to time. But ultimately I think it leads to less weapon variety.

How so?

Properly designed, I see no difference in the potential weapon variety.
 

Now the weapon overheat mechanic can work decently well with low damage, high rate-of-fire weapons like most assault rifles, pistols, and SMGs. These weapons tend to have large clip sizes, so an overheat mechanic could translate well if implemented. However, it becomes somewhat of an issue with other weapons, particularly weapons built around high burst damage. It would still work with some or most shotguns and sniper rifles, but it becomes a big issue with the outlier weapons.

During my infiltrator run, I really wanted to use the Incisor as my primary weapon - but it's 3-shot bursts combined with low clip limits made that not work very well in some situations. With a cooldown rather than clip system, I could have enjoyed using it.

Your discussion of specific weapons are all things that can be dealt with in weapon design. Giving each weapon a unique value of heat generation per shot and cooldown per second can provide just as much weapon variety as set thermal clip limits.

My suggestion RE chargeable weapons is that they generate heat (causing heat buildup) while charging and retain that heat until fired, at which point the cooldown can commence.
 

This is why I want a thermal clip system. If you want to have some overheating weapons like ME3 did with the Prothean Particle Rifle, Collector SMG, and Lancer, I can live with that. (I would dislike it, but I can live with it if they feel balanced in some way like very low damage.

Very low damage? Why?
 

And proposing a hybrid system, whereby weapons overheat but you can bypass the cooldown with thermal clips, is a dumb proposal. What you are essentially saying is "I do not want to ever run out of ammo or reload my weapon!" because... you suck at games? No seriously, why do you want that system?

Or they could be, yanno, trying to find a compromise for players with mutually exclusive preferences.

Believe it or not, some people actually enjoy the challenge of dealing with weapons that can overheat, without the get-out-of-jail-free-now card that thermal clips provide.

In ME1, enemies could overheat your weapons, forcing you to change weapons or wait for cooldown. The thermal clip system made that mechanic irrelevant.
 

The overheat system is supposed to punish you for firing too much at once, while the thermal clip system is supposed to punish you for missing with a lot of shots or overly-relying on one weapon too much. You basically want all the perks of both systems but without the drawbacks of either system.

The thermal clip system punishes the soldier class for relying on firearms and having no other enemy damaging powers. Combined with ME3's weight system, it punishes anyone who carries extra weapons for backup in case you run out of clips.

Of course, some people play games for pleasure rather than punishment.

[Patchwork]

I think my ME1 was bugged, once overheated guns never cooled down until I returned to the Normandy   that was a lot of not fun and it colours my feelings about the overheat system.

 

That said I think a hybrid system where sidearms have infinite ammo hindered by cool downs/recharging while more powerful guns use thermal clips would work best. But I would have each character carry a personal clip stash -the basic number changing based on the difficulty setting and you can up the number throughout the game through various means- rather than the very lore breaking, especially if we're going to Andromeda, clips being everywhere. 

[RedCaesar97]

The thermal clip system punishes the soldier class for relying on firearms and having no other enemy damaging powers. Combined with ME3's weight system, it punishes anyone who carries extra weapons for backup in case you run out of clips.

Of course, some people play games for pleasure rather than punishment.

 

I play the games for pleasure, and I really enjoy playing the games. But I also want some level of difficulty or challenge associated with it.

 

The thermal clip system does not punish the Soldier class at all. You can play the entire game without firing a shot as a Soldier (with the exception of specific game-required instances), just like any other class.

 

As a Soldier, I have completed an entire playthrough using just the Claymore, and another one using the Mantis and later Kishock. I ran out of ammo a few times, but I had squadmates to pick up the slack, and I could also run around and melee enemies to death.

 

The weight system was poorly-implemented but the Soldier is hardly punished for it. The Soldier has access to all the same lightweight good weapons the other classes have. You only need one gun for the entire game, two if you really think you need a backup weapon. 

[RedCaesar97]

@Pasquale1234, thank you for the well-reasoned reply. You asked me a few questions. I will try to answer them as best I can.
 
 

Now I am not against a return of the overheat system, ...
 
It is certainly unique and I enjoy playing with the overheat system in ME1 from time to time. But ultimately I think it leads to less weapon variety.

How so?

Properly designed, I see no difference in the potential weapon variety.
...
Your discussion of specific weapons are all things that can be dealt with in weapon design. Giving each weapon a unique value of heat generation per shot and cooldown per second can provide just as much weapon variety as set thermal clip limits.

 
 
 
It is not just weapon variety. You can make a ton of unique weapons using either an overheating mechanic or a thermal clip system or any other type of system. What I want to see, is a unique and fairly-balanced set of weapons.
 
Making weapons unique is easy. Balancing those weapons is much harder, and I think even harder with an overheat system.
 
Generally speaking, in most shooters, powerful weapons tend to have low clip sizes, low spare ammo, and longer reload times. Low-damage weapons tend to have large clip sizes, very fast rates of fire, lots of spare ammo and fast reload times. DPS versus burst-damage.
 
With overheat, you are removing one balancing mechanism: spare clips. 
 
And as I tried to explain before, overheat is supposed to punish you, which is why you have to wait 4-6 seconds (or whatever it is) for the gun to cool down. Using a low-overheat weapon is now less attractive because you will likely spend more time waiting for it to cooldown than shooting. It becomes a 'DPS race' as I saw someone put it, where the more damage-per-second you can put out is better. Spending too much time waiting for weapon cooldown kills your DPS.
 
 
And as for trying to balance the cooldown per weapon... same issue as above, but it can have the opposite effect. Give a powerful weapon too much cooldown and it becomes useless/pointless to use. Give a powerful weapon too little cooldown and it outshines everything to the point that all other weapons are pointless. 
 
You could add weapon weight to the mix, but the developers are going to have to change it first, or just outright scrap it.
 
 
 

This is why I want a thermal clip system. If you want to have some overheating weapons like ME3 did with the Prothean Particle Rifle, Collector SMG, and Lancer, I can live with that.

Very low damage? Why?

 
 
Well if you want to go by lore (which you mentioned, [and yes you also mentioned that you hated it]), Shepard tells Conrad that they switched to Thermal clips so that guns did more damage. The codex also mentions that it also allowed for more sustained fire since reloading was faster than waiting for the weapons to cool down.
 
So if you want to go by lore, then overheat weapons would deal less damage than thermal clip weapons.
 
Also, high-damage thermal clip weapons would have to be reloaded more, while low-damage overheat weapons can be reloaded less. Even in ME3, SMGs have two mods that improve thermal clip usage: Clip size and Improved Heat Sink mods. You can fire a long time with those mods.
 
 
 

And proposing a hybrid system, whereby weapons overheat but you can bypass the cooldown with thermal clips, is a dumb proposal. What you are essentially saying is "I do not want to ever run out of ammo or reload my weapon!" because... you suck at games? No seriously, why do you want that system? The overheat system is supposed to punish you for firing too much at once, while the thermal clip system is supposed to punish you for missing with a lot of shots or overly-relying on one weapon too much. You basically want all the perks of both systems but without the drawbacks of either system.

 

Or they could be, yanno, trying to find a compromise for players with mutually exclusive preferences.

Believe it or not, some people actually enjoy the challenge of dealing with weapons that can overheat, without the get-out-of-jail-free-now card that thermal clips provide.

In ME1, enemies could overheat your weapons, forcing you to change weapons or wait for cooldown. The thermal clip system made that mechanic irrelevant.

 
But it is not a compromise though. You are combining two systems that remove the limitations/challenges of those systems. You might as well just make weapons that you never have to stop firing. Just hold the trigger and spray! Which is what you could do in ME1 and it was dumb. I once had an enemy Sabotage my weapon, but it refused to overheat because I had two Frictionless Material X mods and Master Marksman/Overkill activated.