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Which ammunition system would you prefer in ME:Next? (Poll inside)


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#101
RedCaesar97

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During my infiltrator run, I really wanted to use the Incisor as my primary weapon - but it's 3-shot bursts combined with low clip limits made that not work very well in some situations. With a cooldown rather than clip system, I could have enjoyed using it.


But as an Infiltrator you also have:
- Sabotage
- Incinerate
- Sticky Grenades
- bonus power
- Disruptor/Cryo Ammo.

 

You can still use the Incisor -- and only the Incisor -- and not run into any ammo problems.

I once used the Incisor briefly on a Vanguard. I hardly ever used it because it was too easy to just biotic explode everything to death. With the Infiltrator, you can just prime and detonate tech explosions and hardly ever use your weapon. Same thing with any class.

The weapon you use should be another tool in your arsenal, not your only tool.



#102
Malanek

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This is why I want a thermal clip system. If you want to have some overheating weapons like ME3 did with the Prothean Particle Rifle, Collector SMG, and Lancer, I can live with that. (I would dislike it, but I can live with it if they feel balanced in some way like very low damage. Personally, I would like the ME3 Avenger and ME3 to switch stats -- and sound effects -- and make the Avenger overheat instead of use thermal clips).

 

I agree with all of your post (and it was well written) except for this bit.

 

Why "very low" damage which will effectively make them unusable? Although strong none of the guns you mention are overpowered compared to other overpowered guns. I presume you wanted to switch the Avenger with the Lancer? The Avenger is weak because it is a starter weapon designed mainly for bronze, silver and the start of the game in SP. But the Lancer is not stronger than the Harrier or the Typhoon. They should be balanced of course, and you can do so by having lower damage, but not VERY low damage.

 

There are other ways as well, the heat up mechanic of the PPR is an excellent design idea imo but could have gone further. The damage should keep getting greater and greater the closer you are to overheating, really tests player skill when they want to get as close to 100% out of the weapon as possible.

 

I see the overheat mechanic as a relatively interesting twist that opens up a lot of design space and they are not too difficult to balance. There were plenty of different thermal clip weapons where I would never run out of ammo with anyway. Having infinite ammo is not a massive advantage over thermal clip ammunition when ammunition tends to be plentiful anyway.


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#103
Vazgen

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On my Stasis Sentinel playthrough, my squadmates got glitched when jumping out of the building during Priority Earth (didn't record it though). I had to do the section from 13:50 to 18:26 alone. I had no problems with it. Hell, I'm currently running a Soldier who uses Mantis as her only weapon and I very rarely find myself in need of specifically hunting for thermal clips. Usually I just pick them along the way :)

One thing I agree with Pasquale1234 is that having those clips lying around everywhere has a negative impact on player immersion. Not too much in my case, but it's there. 

I'm just having trouble imagining guns with overheating mechanic that are both 1) aplenty 2) unique 3) support different playstyles 4) balanced.


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#104
Pasquale1234

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As a Soldier, I have completed an entire playthrough using just the Claymore, and another one using the Mantis and later Kishock. I ran out of ammo a few times, but I had squadmates to pick up the slack, and I could also run around and melee enemies to death.
 
The weight system was poorly-implemented but the Soldier is hardly punished for it. The Soldier has access to all the same lightweight good weapons the other classes have. You only need one gun for the entire game, two if you really think you need a backup weapon.


I often choose to play solo rather than rezz fallen squadmates. Without them, you can end up in an untenable sitch - depending on the location. BioWare does like to put enemies in places the player cannot go, making melee impossible, and sometimes the distance makes shotgun use ineffective.
 

It is not just weapon variety. You can make a ton of unique weapons using either an overheating mechanic or a thermal clip system or any other type of system. What I want to see, is a unique and fairly-balanced set of weapons.

Making weapons unique is easy. Balancing those weapons is much harder, and I think even harder with an overheat system.


Okay, I gotta ask - why is balance so important in a single player game? Does it really matter if some specific weapon outshines the others? Or does your concern have to do with weapons used in MP?

Keep in mind, too, that weapon overheating in ME1 was similar to having your shields / barriers fully knocked down. Heat would normally dissipate at a specific rate unless the weapon actually overheated, in which case it would take a lot longer before the heat would start to dissipate. So, that's another factor that can be adjusted to balance the weapon design.
 

Well if you want to go by lore (which you mentioned, [and yes you also mentioned that you hated it]), Shepard tells Conrad that they switched to Thermal clips so that guns did more damage. The codex also mentions that it also allowed for more sustained fire since reloading was faster than waiting for the weapons to cool down.


Yeah, they did create that lore bit to explain and sell the new thermal clip system. If they choose to allow the return of weapons without thermal clips, they could pile another bit of lore on top.
 

But it is not a compromise though. You are combining two systems that remove the limitations/challenges of those systems. You might as well just make weapons that you never have to stop firing. Just hold the trigger and spray! Which is what you could do in ME1 and it was dumb. I once had an enemy Sabotage my weapon, but it refused to overheat because I had two Frictionless Material X mods and Master Marksman/Overkill activated.


Oh, I understand that a hybrid would not serve the purpose of either system, but I'm not willing to make any assumptions about the motives of those who have suggested it. I thought your response to them was unnecessarily harsh.

I've had weapons sabotaged in ME1. I don't use double doses of Frictionless Material X. There are different schools of thought about exploits - what they are, whether games should allow them, etc. One thing I did like about ME1's inventory system is that it didn't require you to min-max. You could continue to use lower-level weapons and mods as long as you like, which gives you a *lot* more leeway to set up the degree of challenge that best suits your personal preferences.
 

But as an Infiltrator you also have:
- Sabotage
- Incinerate
- Sticky Grenades
- bonus power
- Disruptor/Cryo Ammo.

You can still use the Incisor -- and only the Incisor -- and not run into any ammo problems.

I once used the Incisor briefly on a Vanguard. I hardly ever used it because it was too easy to just biotic explode everything to death. With the Infiltrator, you can just prime and detonate tech explosions and hardly ever use your weapon. Same thing with any class.

The weapon you use should be another tool in your arsenal, not your only tool.


I'm aware of the capabilities of the class. I'm not a fan of the power combo systems, as they tend to trivialize a lot of encounters - so to compensate, they build in more and more spawns of endless mindless mooks.

Truth be told, unless I'm playing a soldier, I get through a lot of encounters without firing a shot. I just finished a Vanguard play, and it's so easy to make biotic boom-booms with Liara, I rarely ever charged. Or fired.

But sometimes I want a different experience. Sometimes I want to shoot the weapon I want to shoot as much as I want to shoot it. As Wrex would say, "Why shoot something once when you can shoot it 46 more times?"

It's a tough balancing act for developers. By designing the limitations some people want because it provides them a certain type of challenge, they are, in some ways, telling all of us how to play - or in this case, how much we can shoot. When they plant thermal clips and drop rates, they've decided how much I get to shoot. I expected it in Fallout, since I needed to find or buy ammo, but did not expect it after ME1. And it's implementation was a disappointment to me.
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#105
Vazgen

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One of the drawbacks of cooldown system is that you can't cancel the cooldown. Personally I like to reload when I get a breathing room. Having to wait for the weapon to cool down is fixed. You'd either be forced to constantly control your rate of fire or get in cover and wait for the weapon to cool down. First restricts available playstyles (such playstyle will most likely be impossible with the cooldown system), second breaks the flow of combat - you'll have to spend more time in cover than you'll do reloading (it's especially true for weapons with quick reload speed, like Locust). 



#106
Pasquale1234

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Hell, I'm currently running a Soldier who uses Mantis as her only weapon and I very rarely find myself in need of specifically hunting for thermal clips. Usually I just pick them along the way :)


One of my many character flaws is that I *hate* running out of anything. I always fill up when I have a chance, so I'm always sure to have plenty, and tend to be miserly with anything that is in limited supply.

And frankly, I'm still chafing a bit from my first soldier play of ME2. It took me awhile to adapt to the sea change in combat mechanics, and I did, in fact, run out of ammo a couple of times. Apparently, I have transitioned successfully, as I did complete an ME2 playthrough on Insanity. Probably won't do it again, though.
 

One thing I agree with Pasquale1234 is that having those clips lying around everywhere has a negative impact on player immersion. Not too much in my case, but it's there. 
I'm just having trouble imagining guns with overheating mechanic that are both 1) aplenty 2) unique 3) support different playstyles 4) balanced.


I'd suggest having both types of weapons available, but it wouldn't solve the issue of thermal clips laying around. I suppose another option is to have a large pool of clips available at the beginning of a mission that must last through the entire mission.

#107
Vazgen

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One of my many character flaws is that I *hate* running out of anything. I always fill up when I have a chance, so I'm always sure to have plenty, and tend to be miserly with anything that is in limited supply.

And frankly, I'm still chafing a bit from my first soldier play of ME2. It took me awhile to adapt to the sea change in combat mechanics, and I did, in fact, run out of ammo a couple of times. Apparently, I have transitioned successfully, as I did complete an ME2 playthrough on Insanity. Probably won't do it again, though.

Should've mentioned that I play her in ME3 :)
 
 

I'd suggest having both types of weapons available, but it wouldn't solve the issue of thermal clips laying around. I suppose another option is to have a large pool of clips available at the beginning of a mission that must last through the entire mission.

I suggested a hybrid system. Low amount of clips with shared pool for all weapons. Players have the ability to either pop the clip out or wait for the gun to cool down. Optional upgrades that can either increase the number of available clips or reduce cooldown time. No (or very few) clip pickups. It's a rough draft though and will most likely have some issues that will need to be addressed.


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#108
Pasquale1234

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One of the drawbacks of cooldown system is that you can't cancel the cooldown. Personally I like to reload when I get a breathing room. Having to wait for the weapon to cool down is fixed. You'd either be forced to constantly control your rate of fire or get in cover and wait for the weapon to cool down. First restricts available playstyles (such playstyle will most likely be impossible with the cooldown system), second breaks the flow of combat - you'll have to spend more time in cover than you'll do reloading (it's especially true for weapons with quick reload speed, like Locust).


There's really no starting or canceling of cooldown. You don't have to wait until the weapon is completely cool before you can fire it again. At least not until it actually overheats - in which case there is a waiting period before cooldown will begin. Kind of like having your shields completely wrecked - it takes awhile for them to start regenerating.

Here are the factors to fiddle with in weapon overheating design:
-- amount of heat generated per shot
-- amount of heat dissipated per second
-- amount of heat buildup tolerated before entering overheated state
-- length of time the weapon remains overheated before cooldown starts
 

Should've mentioned that I play her in ME3 :)


You use Liara a lot, you mean? I do, too. Nice vids :)
 

I suggested a hybrid system. Low amount of clips with shared pool for all weapons. Players have the ability to either pop the clip out or wait for the gun to cool down. Optional upgrades that can either increase the number of available clips or reduce cooldown time. No (or very few) clip pickups. It's a rough draft though and will most likely have some issues that will need to be addressed.


How about a heat-resistant materials mod that would raise the temp at which the weapon enters overheated status? Sort of like ultralight materials to reduce weight.

Some might not like the hybrid, because it doesn't punish players for overheating their weapons. It gives you the easy out of popping the clip, and moving on.

I like the idea of no clip or grenade pickup during missions. Whatever supply you start out with is what you have available for the entire mission.

#109
Para-Cord43

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Thermal Clips. Although the endless ammo is quite amusing and very unique, the thermal clips feel more natural and make battles more challenging. But that's just how I feel, and I'd be up for anything as long as it means I'm learning new information about the next Mass Effect.



#110
Vazgen

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There's really no starting or canceling of cooldown. You don't have to wait until the weapon is completely cool before you can fire it again. At least not until it actually overheats - in which case there is a waiting period before cooldown will begin. Kind of like having your shields completely wrecked - it takes awhile for them to start regenerating.

Here are the factors to fiddle with in weapon overheating design:
-- amount of heat generated per shot
-- amount of heat dissipated per second
-- amount of heat buildup tolerated before entering overheated state
-- length of time the weapon remains overheated before cooldown starts

Yes, but the shields go down/weapon overheats faster if you take damage/fire without the shields/heat bar full and it forces some limits on fire rate. Which is not good IMO. 

The problem with the factors you brought is that they have quite rigid limits. Make the gun cool down too fast and you'll get people not caring about cooldowns, make it too slow and waiting for the gun to cool down becomes a chore. Similar to being Sabotaged by enemy engineers in ME1 - annoying.
 

You use Liara a lot, you mean? I do, too. Nice vids  :)

Usually, I don't, but the stagger from her Singularity is too useful not to use  :D
 

How about a heat-resistant materials mod that would raise the temp at which the weapon enters overheated status? Sort of like ultralight materials to reduce weight.
 
Some might not like the hybrid, because it doesn't punish players for overheating their weapons. It gives you the easy out of popping the clip, and moving on.
 
I like the idea of no clip or grenade pickup during missions. Whatever supply you start out with is what you have available for the entire mission.

Yeah, that's better, still keeps the same cooldown duration as punishment. 

That's true, and the potential of breaking the game and ending up overpowered is also bigger. It does punish the players though. If there are no thermal clip pickups, I'd think twice before using a thermal clip. Of course, it depends on the numbers. If I have 20, I won't bother :D

I think that overheat system was part of ME1 vision of exploration. You can't really dump thermal clips all over uncharted planets. I assume a similar issue will be present for ME:Next. 



#111
StealthGamer92

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Speaking of ammo who thinks a Tech mine count would be cool for tech classes? Like you have 15-20 Tech Minies on mission start 1 is used for the powers like Overload, Incenerate/Cryo, and Drone(not turret), also your Omni-tool would "Minifacture" Tech Mines over time. Bring back Omnitool models like ME1 with bonuses to Minifacturing speed, Shield effeciency, and maybe Turret recharge or Effeciency in varrying degrees by model and level(Bio-Amps too but with Biotic Buffs).

I like the idea of no clip or grenade pickup during missions. Whatever supply you start out with is what you have available for the entire mission.

Maybe have suits list Ammo pouches/compartments/storage so a bulkier suit has high clip capacity while thin suits have minimum but give power cooldown for biotics and tech gets more mine capacity.


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#112
o Ventus

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ME2 and 3's way of doing it, just because it can't be so easily abused like it could in ME1.

 

Spectre Weapon level 10 + Frictionless Materials = hold down the trigger or mouse button forever and ever and never overheat.


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#113
StealthGamer92

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ME2 and 3's way of doing it, just because it can't be so easily abused like it could in ME1.

 

Spectre Weapon level 10 + Frictionless Materials = hold down the trigger or mouse button forever and ever and never overheat.

My ME1 soldier had the following loadout that works best imo and the infinite fire is non existant try it if you haven't it's great.

 

(All Specter but worked with any X-level guns of same type)

 

AR=Scram Rail X-Frictionless Material X- Sledghammer Rounds X

 

SR=Scram Rail X(x2)-High Explosive Rounds X

 

SG=Scram Rail X-Frictionless Material X-Sledgehamer Rounds X

 

Pistol=Scram Rail X(x2)-Sledgehamer Rounds X

 

God I missed Sledgehamer rounds post ME1. :(



#114
o Ventus

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My ME1 soldier had the following loadout that works best imo and the infinite fire is non existant try it if you haven't it's great.

 

I only ever play Soldier in ME1 (because I detest the way powers work in ME1), and I can go through literally the entire game using only my assault rifle.

 

Level 60 + Spectre assault rifle level 10 + Frictionless Materials + Tungsten Rounds = Hold RT/R1/mouse button down for the entire game and kill everything practically as soon as it appears. 

 

The only things that don't fall over immediately are the krogan battlemasters and bosses (and the geth overtures/colossi, but those always appear during vehicle segments, so I just ignore them). The only power I'll ever even consider needing is Overkill for the final Saren battle.



#115
Guest_PaladinDragoon_*

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I like the Thermal Clips system the best. I did like that there was a few weapons that use the overheat system. In short a mix of thw two is fine with me.



#116
Cknarf

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A combo of both would be ideal.

 

You've got a bullet hose for as long as you've got thermal clips. When you run out, it reverts to either a semi-automatic mode, burst, or automatic w/reduced rate of fire.



#117
StealthGamer92

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I only ever play Soldier in ME1 (because I detest the way powers work in ME1), and I can go through literally the entire game using only my assault rifle.

 

Level 60 + Spectre assault rifle level 10 + Frictionless Materials + Tungsten Rounds = Hold RT/R1/mouse button down for the entire game and kill everything practically as soon as it appears. 

 

The only things that don't fall over immediately are the krogan battlemasters and bosses (and the geth overtures/colossi, but those always appear during vehicle segments, so I just ignore them). The only power I'll ever even consider needing is Overkill for the final Saren battle.

Ok so you use the mechanich(I call it an exploit but Potato Pototo for some) you dislike, or it sounds like you dislike it, because? I mean I only ran Soldier my first 2 playthroughs so I'd have a Soldier in ME2 since I didn't know they'd have the reset class function, but this loadout was powerful but still a challenge so I thought I'd share if anyone was interested. Every other playthrough was either Engineer or Infiltrator because Tech is awesome in ME1, best powers in any game I've ever played.



#118
RedCaesar97

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Okay, I gotta ask - why is balance so important in a single player game? Does it really matter if some specific weapon outshines the others? Or does your concern have to do with weapons used in MP?

 

Several reasons.

 

I think mostly it boils down to finding weapons I like and want to use, not because they are clearly better than other weapons, but because they fit my particular playstyle.

 

I also think weapon balance is important so that all weapons feel useful, or that they have a purpose in the game. And I think weapons are just as much a part of making your chosen class unique as much as the powers (and power evolutions) you use on that class. 

 

For example, do you take the Widow for one-shot-one-kill, or do you take the Raptor that deals less damage but can kill two enemies (or possibly more) before you need to reload or take cover? Which sniper rifle works best with your current playstyle or power set? If you have a weapon that kill in one shot and has multiple shots per clip, why use the Widow or Raptor, and why then would the developers even bother designing the Widow and Raptor if there was clearly a better weapon in the game?

 

 

I thought Mass Effect 2 had some good (but obviously not perfect) weapon balance. They gave the weapons a role: pistols anti-armor, SMGs anti-shields, shotguns anti-shields but close range, sniper rifles anti-armor but long range, assault rifles all-around. And within each category, each weapon worked differently, but were at least somewhat balanced. I thought shotguns, pistols, and SMGs were balanced well, but assault rifles and sniper rifles had some duds.

 

Mass Effect 3 had a lot of weapons, but a lot of the vanilla weapons were garbage. Some of the weapon balance changes pushed the imbalances even further, and then a bunch of the DLC weapons dropped all illusion of balance. For example, no real good reason to use any SMG except the Punisher since it is clearly superior to all other SMGs... and most assault rifles for that matter.


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#119
o Ventus

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Ok so you use the mechanich(I call it an exploit but Potato Pototo for some) you dislike, or it sounds like you dislike it, because?

 

Because that's the only way to play a soldier in ME1? By using guns? Almost all of their powers revolve around buffing their weapons.

 

How else do I play a class balanced around weapons, if I don't use weapons?

 

And in what way is anything I've described an exploit?



#120
o Ventus

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Mass Effect 3 had a lot of weapons, but a lot of the vanilla weapons were garbage. Some of the weapon balance changes pushed the imbalances even further, and then a bunch of the DLC weapons dropped all illusion of balance. For example, no real good reason to use any SMG except the Punisher since it is clearly superior to all other SMGs... and most assault rifles for that matter.

Yeah. The M7 Lancer, as much as I adore the weapon, was the only thing you ever needed in ME3, no matter what class you were. If you had the Lancer and it was upgraded to level 10, you would never, ever need to use any powers or other weapons. It was both lightweight and packed a hefty punch. Just equip the magazine size upgrade and the armor-piercing mod and not a single encounter in the entire game would be a challenge, even on Insanity (I know this firsthand because that's how I play ME3 now on Insanity, just rush through with the Lancer and destroy everything).



#121
StealthGamer92

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Because that's the only way to play a soldier in ME1? By using guns? Almost all of their powers revolve around buffing their weapons.

 

How else do I play a class balanced around weapons, if I don't use weapons?

 

And in what way is anything I've described an exploit?

The no heat setup isn't the only way, it's the easy way. There is a difference. Doubled frictionless materials shoudn't have stacked in ME1, or any mod for that matter. That was just wierd. I know from the loadout I use that's a bit hypocritical, but my loadout was not an infinite ammo one also.



#122
Silver Souls

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I accidentaly voted for the ME2 clips, but I want the ME1 heat thing. But  it would be cool if they combined them in the next game



#123
Farangbaa

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Frictionless materials were so unneccesary in ME1. I just slapped on those heat/damage increasing mods, two of 'em, and juggled the heat meter.

Always used assault rifles btw, on everything.

Don't really care what BW decides to do, but they should come up with a system that doesn't make certain weapons so good it trivializes all others (ME1: Spectre Weapons ME3: Lancer), cause that just means there's a lot of worthless guns in the game.
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#124
Pasquale1234

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Yes, but the shields go down/weapon overheats faster if you take damage/fire without the shields/heat bar full and it forces some limits on fire rate. Which is not good IMO. 
The problem with the factors you brought is that they have quite rigid limits. Make the gun cool down too fast and you'll get people not caring about cooldowns, make it too slow and waiting for the gun to cool down becomes a chore. Similar to being Sabotaged by enemy engineers in ME1 - annoying.


Yes, tuning equipment is a process. They'll typically start out by setting some values, and constantly tweak them until the gear works as desired.

Saren was my arch-nemesis for multiple reasons. He'd usually overheat my weapon a couple of times in that final battle.
 

I think that overheat system was part of ME1 vision of exploration. You can't really dump thermal clips all over uncharted planets. I assume a similar issue will be present for ME:Next.


I'm hoping they agree with us. I'd hate to see every environment where a fight might take place littered with thermal clips.

#125
SolNebula

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I'm hoping they agree with us. I'd hate to see every environment where a fight might take place littered with thermal clips.

 

Especially considering we are exploring an alien galaxy with alien techs and environments.....to see crates of thermal clips in an alien base would be the cause of a massive facepalm.

The overheating system in this environment is simply more convenient and practical.


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