2122 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I can't see the logic in bringing either of them.

Didn't realize preventing genocide needed logical reasoning. 

[ZipZap2000]

Actually most versions of the theory has all but an Asari skeleton crew in stasis pods for the duration of the journey.

 

That makes the evolved Krogan implausible but forgivable because they look mean as hell. 

[ElitePinecone]

Given the hoops people are jumping through here to make this ark / andromeda theory work and be plausible it's baffling why the simple option of a canonised ending is not preferable.
Going to andromeda leaves so many plot holes or retcons to be done why not just take the easier option?

 

Going to Andromeda really doesn't require as many contrivances as people here suggest. They're being deliberately nitpicky and obtuse. 

 

To me, it's preferable to a canonised ending. Pretty much anything is preferable to a canonised ending. 

 

Setting a canon is a fundamentally terrible thing for the series, and I expect Bioware agrees with that stance for the most part.

[AlanC9]

What's terrible about it?

[ElitePinecone]

What's terrible about it?

 

It creates a precedent whereby even the biggest player choices can be disregarded if later the developers decide that they're too difficult to implement. I know this is something that other game developers do all the time, but Bioware like to argue that their games aren't like other developers'. 

 

For a game series that makes a claim to be unique and special because of its commitment to letting the player decide the shape of the narrative, doing this to the ending of ME3 would be a bad look.

 

BW acknowledged that they wrote themselves into a corner with the Suicide Mission and having to account for dead squadmates in ME3, but they went ahead and did their best to account for those choices anyway. Where possible, they've always pushed for more responsiveness to player choices and less railroading. Canonising the endings would turn that design philosophy on its head.

[Iakus]

Sorry I lost faith in Bioware's dedication to "let the player decide the shape of the narrative" years ago.

But in any case if a story fracks up so badly you have to crumple up an entire galaxy and throw it away like a piece of paper with some lines crossed out, maybe it'seems time to tinker with the story a bit.

[Drone223]

Going to Andromeda really doesn't require as many contrivances as people here suggest.

That's because it is contrived since there is no build up to it and comes out of nowhere and contrivances are things writers should avoid.

[MrFob]

That's because it is contrived since there is no build up to it and comes out of nowhere and contrivances are things writers should avoid.

 

If it were built into the lore somehow, I would be ok with it, even if it is contrived (which it really has to be, unless they spend a whole new novel setting it up).

 

I had this idea today of a scenario, where the Leviathans may have sent a prototype relay for intergalactic travel to Andromeda during their own reaper war. Took a billion years but now that relay has arrived and we can use it's local counterpart to get there. However, as it was a prototype (much like the Prothean's conduit was) it also only goes one way.

 

It needs some fleshing out but it would solve the tech problem (as that relay would only need to be hurled at Andromeda with about 1/40th of light speed). Of course it would still be contrived but at least it would use familiar and established plot elements to set up the new scenario.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

If it were built into the lore somehow, I would be ok with it, even if it is contrived (which it really has to be, unless they spend a whole new novel setting it up).

 

I had this idea today of a scenario, where the Leviathans may have sent a prototype relay for intergalactic travel to Andromeda during their own reaper war. Took a billion years but now that relay has arrived and we can use it's local counterpart to get there. However, as it was a prototype (much like the Prothean's conduit was) it also only goes one way.

 

It needs some fleshing out but it would solve the tech problem (as that relay would only need to be hurled at Andromeda with about 1/40th of light speed). Of course it would still be contrived but at least it would use familiar and established plot elements to set up the new scenario.

The Mass Relays weren't built by the Leviathans though. They were built by the Reapers. 

[Drone223]

If it were built into the lore somehow, I would be ok with it, even if it is contrived (which it really has to be, unless they spend a whole new novel setting it up).

I had this idea today of a scenario, where the Leviathans may have sent a prototype relay for intergalactic travel to Andromeda during their own reaper war. Took a billion years but now that relay has arrived and we can use it's local counterpart to get there. However, as it was a prototype (much like the Prothean's conduit was) it also only goes one way.

It needs some fleshing out but it would solve the tech problem (as that relay would only need to be hurled at Andromeda with about 1/40th of light speed). Of course it would still be contrived but at least it would use familiar and established plot elements to set up the new scenario.

Even then it'd still suffer the same problem as LP and crucible, they come out of nowhere and when that happens it just makes the whole thing jarring. If the whole concept was developed throughout the trilogy then I'd probably have a much easier time accepting it. But given how there's no proper build up for such a concept its going to be very jarring and it's going to be easy to notice.

[MrFob]

@Hanako Ikezawa: Where is that established? AFAIK, this is only said by Sovereign (who apparently lies all the time about everything) and the codex (which is written by the current races and contains wrong information, e.g. Citadel built by the protheans, etc.). On the other hand, the Levaithans, according to their own statements controlled the entire galaxy long before they were converted to reapers. Hence, it makes sense to me that they would have built the network. They already had to get around somehow.

 

@Drone223: Well, as I said, it is still contrived. If the rumors are true, there is no way to avoid coming up with something out of the blue because there is simply no established way to get there, so they have to invent something. If they do it, I would at least like it to be based in something familiar that follows up on things that are already established, rather than just saying "We found a worm hole and now you are there". Ideally, you'd want to have a novel or something to come before such a game, that can set up the scenario properly and connect it to the series as it exists so far. However, I think we'd be very lucky to get something like that.

 

Keep in mind, I am not saying that I would be super happy if they went down this road, I just think that something like this could be better than doing what the writing team did a lot before and just not explain or connect anything at all.

[dlux]

ME4 sounds a lot more like a spinoff set in the Mass Effect universe than an actual Mass Effect game. Completely redesigning beloved game series from the ground up seems to be a trendy thing to do at Bioware EAWare nowadays. Not to mention that the gameplay sounds pretty MMOish... Maybe they should call it Dragon Age: Inquisiton in space... 

 

Anyway, there are at least 100 billion planets in the milky way, hundreds of millions of them potentially habitable, >99% of the milky way in the Mass Effect trilogy is unexplored... Yet the Andromeda Galaxy needs to be colonized. Sounds like the plot came straight out of a trashy Flash Gordon movie or something. 

Why even the Andromeda galaxy anyway? There are numerous (dwarf) galaxies which are much closer than Andromeda. Sounds like everyone is going to Andromeda in ME4 simply for some s**ts and giggles.

[wolfhowwl]

It creates a precedent whereby even the biggest player choices can be disregarded if later the developers decide that they're too difficult to implement. I know this is something that other game developers do all the time, but Bioware like to argue that their games aren't like other developers'. 
 
For a game series that makes a claim to be unique and special because of its commitment to letting the player decide the shape of the narrative, doing this to the ending of ME3 would be a bad look.
 
BW acknowledged that they wrote themselves into a corner with the Suicide Mission and having to account for dead squadmates in ME3, but they went ahead and did their best to account for those choices anyway. Where possible, they've always pushed for more responsiveness to player choices and less railroading. Canonising the endings would turn that design philosophy on its head.

 
Are setting a canon and moving to another galaxy that different?
 
1. BioWare can't handle accounting for ME3's player choices or being responsive to them so they will set a canon slate for future games so they don't have to deal with the different outcomes.
 
2. BioWare can't handle accounting for ME3's player choices or being responsive to them so they will move to a new setting so they don't have to deal with the different outcomes

 

No matter what you aren't getting any consequences for your choices. 

[Drone223]

@Drone223: Well, as I said, it is still contrived. If the rumors are true, there is no way to avoid coming up with something out of the blue because there is simply no established way to get there, so they have to invent something. If they do it, I would at least like it to be based in something familiar that follows up on things that are already established, rather than just saying "We found a worm hole and now you are there". Ideally, you'd want to have a novel or something to come before such a game, that can set up the scenario properly and connect it to the series as it exists so far. However, I think we'd be very lucky to get something like that.

Keep in mind, I am not saying that I would be super happy if they went down this road, I just think that something like this could be better than doing what the writing team did a lot before and just not explain or connect anything at all.

Pretty much, if they go foward with the concept they should at least build it up before the game is released so it sounds believable and people can have an easier time processing it. Like you I'd be happy to be pleasantly surprised but I'd hate to see such an interesting setting bioware crafted end up being nothing but wasted potential it'd be nice to return to such places in future titles.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

@Hanako Ikezawa: Where is that established? AFAIK, this is only said by Sovereign (who apparently lies all the time about everything) and the codex (which is written by the current races and contains wrong information, e.g. Citadel built by the protheans, etc.). On the other hand, the Levaithans, according to their own statements controlled the entire galaxy long before they were converted to reapers. Hence, it makes sense to me that they would have built the network. They already had to get around somehow.

Here: https://youtu.be/Yvta3K0aqlU?t=17m23s

 

Leviathan: It directed the Reapers to create the Mass Relays -- to speed the time between cycles for greatest efficiency. 

 

 

So the Leviathans got around somehow, but the Mass Relays were not the means they did it. 

[MrFob]

Here: https://youtu.be/Yvta3K0aqlU?t=17m23s

 

Leviathan: It directed the Reapers to create the Mass Relays -- to speed the time between cycles for greatest efficiency. 

 

 

So the Leviathans got around somehow, but the Mass Relays were not the means they did it. 

 

Oh, didn't remember that line. Fair enough. I stand corrected.

 

Could still work though, if they did it in secret during the early cycles.

[j_huarte]

I personally would have gone with canonising an ending, I don't mind them doing that if it means we get to see again the galaxy we came to love ( citadel, omega, terminus.) But I can see this having a lot of potential and fitting into the story.

Here is my wild guess:

 

During the reaper war and seeing that complete extermination is a likely possibility the council decides to send an ark containing a selection of individuals to the nearest galaxy (Andromeda) to begin a new civilization.

 

Because FTL travel is only possible through the relays this trip will take hundreds or thousands of years, the occupants of the ark are preserved in stasis.

 

BUT the reaper war is won, and reaper technology can be accessed in all 3 endings, giving the galaxy the possibility of FTL.

 

By the time the Ark arrives the winner's descendanst  of the reaper war have already gotten there and started a new civilization (Thus the evolved krogans we saw)

[wright1978]

 
Are setting a canon and moving to another galaxy that different?
 
1. BioWare can't handle accounting for ME3's player choices or being responsive to them so they will set a canon slate for future games so they don't have to deal with the different outcomes.
 
2. BioWare can't handle accounting for ME3's player choices or being responsive to them so they will move to a new setting so they don't have to deal with the different outcomes

 

No matter what you aren't getting any consequences for your choices. 

 

In the second scenario your choices are intact is not directly seen, whereas in the former they are ripped up and burned in front of you.

[The Arbiter]

Going to Andromeda really doesn't require as many contrivances as people here suggest. They're being deliberately nitpicky and obtuse. 

 

To me, it's preferable to a canonised ending. Pretty much anything is preferable to a canonised ending. 

 

Setting a canon is a fundamentally terrible thing for the series, and I expect Bioware agrees with that stance for the most part.

Why would setting a canon be fundamentally terrible? they did it with ME1 AND ME2 so why stop there? unless if they totally want to end Mass Effect with 3 which they do then I see your point.

 

Here let me show it to you

 

MASS EFFECT 1 Canon beginning -> Shepard is born hero of the alliance. Canon ending -> Saren dies no matter what and Sovereign explodes no matter what you do in between

 

MASS EFFECT 2 Canon beginning -> Normandy SR1 Explodes, Shepard dies and gets reborn, colonies attacked. Canon ending -> Reaper forces appear from dark space no matter how many crew member dies or what you do in between.

 

Mass Effect 3 Canon beginning-> Earth, Palaven, The Milkyway is attacked by the Reapers no matter what you do in the past two installments.

 CANON ENDING -> NEON CAT APPEARS with rainbows and unicorns

[Grieving Natashina]

Mass Effect 3 Canon beginning-> Earth, Palaven, The Milkyway is attacked by the Reapers no matter what you do in the past two installments.

 CANON ENDING -> NEON CAT APPEARS with rainbows and unicorns

 

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

I couldn't help it.   My mind goes to weird places after 2am.  

[ZoliCs]

Why would you invite Quarian exiles (low-life scum) or Geth (despised synthetic race assumed to be hostile) at all?

It's an Ark. For the same reason Noah included "Nopes" on his Ark. Preservation of life.

[ElitePinecone]

 Are setting a canon and moving to another galaxy that different?
 
1. BioWare can't handle accounting for ME3's player choices or being responsive to them so they will set a canon slate for future games so they don't have to deal with the different outcomes.
 
2. BioWare can't handle accounting for ME3's player choices or being responsive to them so they will move to a new setting so they don't have to deal with the different outcomes

 

No matter what you aren't getting any consequences for your choices. 

 

The first option is the only one that disregards player choices, though. 

 

A canon ending means that whatever some people (or everybody?) picked in the finale of ME3 never happened. 

 

Moving to Andromeda doesn't change a thing about the endings. They still happened, and the galaxy is different because of those choices, but we just don't get to see it. Whatever people imagined about the future of the Milky Way in their ending, and whatever the Extended Cut implied for the endings, can still happen.

 

I think that's a really important distinction, even though they might look outwardly similar. 

 

That's not even considering that, as some people suggest, they could re-integrate the Milky Way into the Andromeda setting in a limited way through quantum-entanglement communicators and some dialogue differences based on the choices players made - which would mean they're not ignoring player choices at all. 

[Tonymac]

 

 

I couldn't help it.   My mind goes to weird places after 2am.  

Get some sleep.  2 AM is no time to be awake.

 

Or, be like me, at work at 5:30 to catch up on the boards.  And find coffee.

[ElitePinecone]

Why would setting a canon be fundamentally terrible? they did it with ME1 AND ME2 so why stop there? unless if they totally want to end Mass Effect with 3 which they do then I see your point.

 

Here let me show it to you

 

MASS EFFECT 1 Canon beginning -> Shepard is born hero of the alliance. Canon ending -> Saren dies no matter what and Sovereign explodes no matter what you do in between

 

MASS EFFECT 2 Canon beginning -> Normandy SR1 Explodes, Shepard dies and gets reborn, colonies attacked. Canon ending -> Reaper forces appear from dark space no matter how many crew member dies or what you do in between.

 

Mass Effect 3 Canon beginning-> Earth, Palaven, The Milkyway is attacked by the Reapers no matter what you do in the past two installments.

 CANON ENDING -> NEON CAT APPEARS with rainbows and unicorns

 

You're confusing regular story events with player decisions, and this doesn't make any sense. 

 

Saren always dies at the end of ME1 because players don't get a choice. It's always canon that this happens. If we'd had an option to leave him alive then he turned up dead in ME2 regardless, that would have been an example of the developers canonising player choices rather than respecting them. I have no problem with the writers dictating that some stuff always happens, because this is a narrative game and it's impossible to give the player complete control over events. 

 

(In fact, I reckon they could've avoided a whole lot of controversy and disappointment by just killing the Reapers at the end of ME3 and killing off characters as a result of Shepard's choices and achievements, rather than entire civilisations. It would've made it a heck of a lot easier to make an ME4 that was set in the Milky Way, and we wouldn't be having this conversation.)

 

Shepard gets to decide the future of an entire galaxy by picking one of three radically different alternatives. Each of those alternatives has been presented as a valid ending for the series. If Bioware move forward and decide that some of or all of them didn't actually happen, that would be an example of a terrible precedent to set for how the series deals with big player choices.

[Grieving Natashina]

Get some sleep.  2 AM is no time to be awake.

 

Or, be like me, at work at 5:30 to catch up on the boards.  And find coffee.

This is my normal hours, actually.  Gotta love the overnight shift.  My allergies are acting up, and so is my insomnia.   Even the non-drowsy cold meds make me kinda loopy sometimes.  I appreciate the thought though.  

 

I wasn't trying to be dismissive with my derail, only wanted to interject a little random humor.  I'm going back to mainly lurking in this thread.  It's interesting to see the theories, perspective and ideas folks have after years of thinking about the ME setting.