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[The Arbiter]

You're confusing regular story events with player decisions, and this doesn't make any sense. 

 

Saren always dies at the end of ME1 because players don't get a choice. It's always canon that this happens. If we'd had an option to leave him alive then he turned up dead in ME2 regardless, that would have been an example of the developers canonising player choices rather than respecting them. I have no problem with the writers dictating that some stuff always happens, because this is a narrative game and it's impossible to give the player complete control over events. 

 

(In fact, I reckon they could've avoided a whole lot of controversy and disappointment by just killing the Reapers at the end of ME3 and killing off characters as a result of Shepard's choices and achievements, rather than entire civilisations. It would've made it a heck of a lot easier to make an ME4 that was set in the Milky Way, and we wouldn't be having this conversation.)

 

Shepard gets to decide the future of an entire galaxy by picking one of three radically different alternatives. Each of those alternatives has been presented as a valid ending for the series. If Bioware move forward and decide that some of or all of them didn't actually happen, that would be an example of a terrible precedent to set for how the series deals with big player choices.

player decisions are influenced with THE STORY OF THE DEVS. I don't give a crap about my decisions if it involves my decisions then I would be making my own game then for crying out loud! I WANT A GOOD STORY TOLD BY OTHERS NOT MY OWN STORY!!! god maybe Mass Effect is just not for me!

 

BIOWARE should re-take their own game and TELL it how it should be told IN THEIR PERSPECTIVE PERIOD. Yes we can influence the game with our decisions but ultimately there must be a LINE DRAWN between the devs/writers and US! No more HERE FANS HAVE YOUR game it is based on your decisions! NOW LOOK AT WHERE WE ARE? OBLIVION

[Tonymac]

This is my normal hours, actually.  Gotta love the overnight shift.  My allergies are acting up, and so is my insomnia.   Even the non-drowsy cold meds make me kinda loopy sometimes.  I appreciate the thought though.  

 

I wasn't trying to be dismissive with my derail, only wanted to interject a little random humor.  I'm going back to mainly lurking in this thread.  It's interesting to see the theories, perspective and ideas folks have after years of thinking about the ME setting.  

 

Ahhh, a night critter - much like myself.  I don't think we are derailing.

 

I'm just hanging back - doing the lurk myself.  The mods are apparently watching me a little too close because I don't sugar coat my opinions.  Leaving the Milky Way is a terrible idea and admittance of their defeat.  Artistic Integrity is now biting them as they desperately try to un-fustercluck the MEU.

 

They spent the series trying to carry over the ideas of consequence and continuity - but they missed the forest for the trees. They got it right with refund man, Conrad (sort of) and a few other not so important characters, but they borked the entire Milky Way Galaxy - and now continuity and consequence has them on the ropes.

 

Bad writing begets more bad writing to try to fix the original bad writing, and it all swirls down the toilet bowl.   So, we trashed the whole Milky Way.....  I've got an idea - lets be Galactic Invaders and go trash another Galaxy. 

[ZoliCs]

Bad writing begets more bad writing to try to fix the original bad writing, and it all swirls down the toilet bowl.   So, we trashed the whole Milky Way.....  I've got an idea - lets be Galactic Invaders and go trash another Galaxy. 

 

It has nothing to do with the quality of the writing. An interactive story just can't go on forever. It's hard enough to write an ending for a linear story like a book as it is.

[The Arbiter]

It has nothing to do with the quality of the writing. An interactive story just can't go on forever. It's hard enough to write an ending for a linear story like a book as it is.

Maybe you are right. It's our fault for pushing Bioware and the writers to "I want this ending" "I want these choices" = we fuc*ed ourselves

[Display Name Owner]

Most of this sounds very cool imo, but yeah, it is a shame to be leaving the Milky Way behind, if true. I don't know how they could've handled the endings, mostly because of Synthesis, which is a tad aggravating as someone who doesn't even like Synthesis being there. Control and Destroy could've been mashed into one vague future imo. Anyway, I'd have liked to see future Tuchanka or future Rannoch, actually visit Palaven and Dekuuna, but several of those worlds would be wildly different depending on your choices so it probably wasn't practical. Still a shame though. I mean, personally I could have lived with any canonised ending, yes, even Syinthesis, which I reiterate - I don't like.

 

The issue is indeed that this seems to mean the Milky Way is done with forever now, which is a crying shame. There were places there I wanted to see more of and issues I'd have liked to deal with, like the Batarian Hegemony.

 

Still, the leak does sound very cool. I guess we might have to accept that it's an entirely new era of Mass Effect.

 

Edit: One thing that does make me a bit apprehensive is the fact that we clearly seem to be working for human interests alone. As in, we're working for the Alliance again, establishing human colonies. One, I don't know why other species would be involved in that, and two, it's not exactly what I'd hoped for tbh. Being an Alliance goon in ME3 was a bit annoying, it was all about Earth Earth Earth. In ME1, when being a Spectre felt important, it was about preserving peace in for all of Council space, regardless of species. That was much better imo.

[Tonymac]

It has nothing to do with the quality of the writing. An interactive story just can't go on forever. It's hard enough to write an ending for a linear story like a book as it is.

 

I get you there - and it cannot keep going.  You are 100% on the money with that.  However, the MEU as we know it is completely trashed with a divergence.  The writers have written themselves into a corner with those endings. Quality of writing ALWAYS has something to do with it. 

 

I don't want to leave the Milky Way, as it had (HAD!) a lot left to offer.  I don't want to be an invader in another galaxy.

[pdusen]

player decisions are influenced with THE STORY OF THE DEVS. I don't give a crap about my decisions if it involves my decisions then I would be making my own game then for crying out loud! I WANT A GOOD STORY TOLD BY OTHERS NOT MY OWN STORY!!! god maybe Mass Effect is just not for me!

 

BIOWARE should re-take their own game and TELL it how it should be told IN THEIR PERSPECTIVE PERIOD. Yes we can influence the game with our decisions but ultimately there must be a LINE DRAWN between the devs/writers and US! No more HERE FANS HAVE YOUR game it is based on your decisions! NOW LOOK AT WHERE WE ARE? OBLIVION

 

...one wonders why you even play Bioware games.

[KaiserShep]

I'm just really curious as to how this would work without mass relays, though I have this aching suspicion that this won't be quite what people are fearing it will be.

[MrFob]

I'm just really curious as to how this would work without mass relays, though I have this aching suspicion that this won't be quite what people are fearing it will be.

 

Well, if the leak is correct, then everything seems to take place in one cluster (apparently a really dense one, if there are hundreds of planets to explore). So then you don't need relays, you can just fly everywhere with FTL.

[The Arbiter]

...one wonders why you even play Bioware games.

good. Because I too don't know. I just like the characters and the story this might be my last though. However, the point is still there: Give all the fans they want and all you get is a broken arse game when it comes to narrative. The devs in ME 1 and ME 2 had more control over their game then the whining starts, No more Mako, No More scanning planets, Choices this choices that...

 

and then...

 

[Iakus]

Maybe you are right. It's our fault for pushing Bioware and the writers to "I want this ending" "I want these choices" = we fuc*ed ourselves

It's our own fault for demanding our choices extend beyond the games in order to "have meaning"  Like enjoying the game in the first place is somehow not enough

 

So Bioware pushed the big red "Awesome" button so we change everything in the galaxy. (whether we wanted to or not)

 

And now we're still demanding that choice be "respected" even if it means making the lore of the setting even squishier than it already is.

 

[Iakus]

Well, if the leak is correct, then everything seems to take place in one cluster (apparently a really dense one, if there are hundreds of planets to explore). So then you don't need relays, you can just fly everywhere with FTL.

 

Which pretty much makes this game 'Mass Effect" in name only.

 

I mean mass relays are practically the logo of the setting

[dreamgazer]

It's our own fault for demanding our choices extend beyond the games in order to "have meaning"  Like enjoying the game in the first place is somehow not enough
 
So Bioware pushed the big red "Awesome" button so we change everything in the galaxy. (whether we wanted to or not)
 
And now we're still demanding that choice be "respected" even if it means making the lore of the setting even squishier than it already is.
 

Yup. The ending could've been the greatest piece of literature ever written, but if it involved any kind of significant divergence through an ending choice (just like ME1 and ME2), it would have to be controlled and course-corrected via imposed canon (whether it's a vague leap into the future or blunt discreditation of other paths) for a future game to take place in the same setting. Writing quality really has nothing to do with it.

[CronoDragoon]

I'm just hanging back - doing the lurk myself.  The mods are apparently watching me a little too close because I don't sugar coat my opinions.  Leaving the Milky Way is a terrible idea and admittance of their defeat. 

 

Yes to the latter, no to the former. Any decision to move forward in the ME verse was going to be a Catch-22 with some section of the fanbase. Staying in the Milky Way and canonizing a decision would - to me - be an even more obvious white flag than going to another galaxy.

[Iakus]

Yes to the latter, no to the former. Any decision to move forward in the ME verse was going to be a Catch-22 with some section of the fanbase. Staying in the Milky Way and canonizing a decision would - to me - be an even more obvious white flag than going to another galaxy.

There are no good options, I agree with that.  But I think staying in the milky Way is the less bad option.  Yes, it's tacitly admitting that the endings were a mistake.  But I think that's something that can be agreed on whether you liked the endings or not.  As you pointed out, there is simply too much divergence to continue.

 

But moving to another galaxy is, to me a greater surrender.  Not only is it admitting that we can never go forward, it's throwing away an enormous area  of space as "off limits" and relocating to another area which this cycle has no business being in order to continue milking the franchise

[ElitePinecone]

Yup. The ending could've been the greatest piece of literature ever written, but if it involved any kind of significant divergence through an ending choice (just like ME1 and ME2), it would have to be controlled and course-corrected via imposed canon (whether it's a vague leap into the future or blunt discreditation of other paths) for a future game to take place in the same setting. Writing quality really has nothing to do with it.

 

ME3 was always intended to be the last game chronologically in this setting though - if we go back and read what Mike Gamble and Mac were saying before launch, they said they could put in those big choices precisely because they'd never need to import them into anything else. 

 

It seems they changed their plans in response to fan feedback and are setting the next game after ME3, but they'll have to twist themselves through loops if they don't want to deal with the consequences of those choices. I think it's a bad situation that could've easily been avoided, but BW either didn't think enough about the last game or were too willing to change their plans to follow fan suggestions afterwards. Casey originally expressed a preference for a prequel or sidequel, but that isn't what we're getting and it seems fan feedback is the cause.

 

(For instance, I would expect a great many people who expressed a desire for a sequel meant it as a direct continuation of the series with Shepard and/or that cast of characters, which they definitely aren't going to get. So BW are catering to a bunch of people who are probably going to be disappointed by what they turn out even if it technically takes place chronologically after the third game.)

[The Arbiter]

ME3 was always intended to be the last game chronologically in this setting though - if we go back and read what Mike Gamble and Mac were saying before launch, they said they could put in those big choices precisely because they'd never need to import them into anything else. 

 

It seems they changed their plans in response to fan feedback and are setting the next game after ME3, but they'll have to twist themselves through loops if they don't want to deal with the consequences of those choices. I think it's a bad situation that could've easily been avoided, but BW either didn't think enough about the last game or were too willing to change their plans to follow fan suggestions afterwards. Casey originally expressed a preference for a prequel or sidequel, but that isn't what we're getting and it seems fan feedback is the cause.

 

(For instance, I would expect a great many people who expressed a desire for a sequel meant it as a direct continuation of the series with Shepard and/or that cast of characters, which they definitely aren't going to get. So BW are catering to a bunch of people who are probably going to be disappointed by what they turn out even if it technically takes place chronologically after the third game.)

for once can you tell the devs to stop responding to their fans? because the fans does not know what they want. IT SHOULD END AT 3... FINISH. MAKE THE NEXT GAME NOT RELATED TO 3 AT ALL even if it takes Restarting the franchise because right now, We can not unfuq ourselves

[Iakus]

ME3 was always intended to be the last game chronologically in this setting though - if we go back and read what Mike Gamble and Mac were saying before launch, they said they could put in those big choices precisely because they'd never need to import them into anything else. 

 

It seems they changed their plans in response to fan feedback and are setting the next game after ME3, but they'll have to twist themselves through loops if they don't want to deal with the consequences of those choices. I think it's a bad situation that could've easily been avoided, but BW either didn't think enough about the last game or were too willing to change their plans to follow fan suggestions afterwards. Casey originally expressed a preference for a prequel or sidequel, but that isn't what we're getting and it seems fan feedback is the cause.

 

(For instance, I would expect a great many people who expressed a desire for a sequel meant it as a direct continuation of the series with Shepard and/or that cast of characters, which they definitely aren't going to get. So BW are catering to a bunch of people who are probably going to be disappointed by what they turn out even if it technically takes place chronologically after the third game.)

And since it is not going to be the final game chronologically, does it not make sense to go back and retcon that which makes it impossible to continue?

[CronoDragoon]

And since it is not going to be the final game chronologically, does it not make sense to go back and retcon that which makes it impossible to continue?

 

It makes - at best - as much sense as moving to another galaxy. And in this case tie goes to the setting that doesn't invalidate the trilogy.

 

So you'd be fine with Destroy being made canon to stay in the Milky Way?

[Iakus]

It makes - at best - as much sense as moving to another galaxy. And in this case tie goes to the setting that doesn't invalidate the trilogy.

 

So you'd be fine with Destroy being made canon to stay in the Milky Way?

 

Why does moving to another galaxy make sense, when it's not possible with technology as described?  Especially since so little has been done with this galaxy?

 

As I've said, I'd rather a "noncanon canon" be made to avoid charges of favoritism.  An outcome impossible to achieve through RGB, Refuse, or by modding the ending (such as MEHEM)

[LinksOcarina]

for once can you tell the devs to stop responding to their fans? because the fans does not know what they want. IT SHOULD END AT 3... FINISH. MAKE THE NEXT GAME NOT RELATED TO 3 AT ALL even if it takes Restarting the franchise because right now, We can not unfuq ourselves

 

then the fans would ****** that they aren't being heard.

 

I am just going to say it, you all made your own bed on this one. 

[LinksOcarina]

And since it is not going to be the final game chronologically, does it not make sense to go back and retcon that which makes it impossible to continue?

 

And once again, who said there is a retcon going on?

[dreamgazer]

And once again, who said there is a retcon going on?

Nobody, yet, but there's only so far folks can go with these details, which again haven't divulged a time period.

[wright1978]

There are no good options, I agree with that.  But I think staying in the milky Way is the less bad option.  Yes, it's tacitly admitting that the endings were a mistake.  But I think that's something that can be agreed on whether you liked the endings or not.  As you pointed out, there is simply too much divergence to continue.
 
But moving to another galaxy is, to me a greater surrender.  Not only is it admitting that we can never go forward, it's throwing away an enormous area  of space as "off limits" and relocating to another area which this cycle has no business being in order to continue milking the franchise

Personally I think ark in andromeda is the best solution to the self inflicted problem they created. Think staying in the Milky Way and ripping up all choices is vastly worse option.
Don't agree that new area is a place this cycle has no place being. Guess all the races should have stayed on their home worlds & not expanded by that logic.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

And once again, who said there is a retcon going on?

Basically:

If it is before or during the Reaper War, our cycle doesn't have the technology so the lore is retconned. 

If it takes place after the Reaper War, our choices regarding the endings will be ignored and retconned.