836 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

What if Shepard never was told about the ARK Pathfinder Project cause he was way to close un contact with REeaper tech and the council feared he gets indoctrinated and not only dooms plan A (Crucible) but also plan B?

But they have no problem telling them of the Reaper killing device? Why keep "Hey, we are going to have some people run and hide" more closely guarded from possible Reaper ears than "Hey, we have a way to kill all of them." Plus the Ark Project would dwarf the Crucible project, so there will be leaks and those leaks will be heard by the Reapers. The only reason the Reapers didn't destroy the Crucible is because it was a trap and/or test from them. 

[AlanC9]

No matter how they do it, be it developing some new drive (in a few mo9nths), retro-engineering reaper tech (which we cannot really do without being indoctrinated and also in that time frame) or conveniently finding a worm whole, just in the nick of time (if it were found before the war, it would have been big news, so they would have had to find it just now), all of those possibilities are very contrived, IMO.

Would a wormhole necessarily have been big news? Say it's a one-way phenomenon, which is necessary to contrive in some fashion for the plot anyway. In the absence of a Reaper invasion such a thing would be of no practical use to anybody. After a few centuries would anybody except astrophysicists remember it?

[MrFob]

What if Shepard never was told about the ARK Pathfinder Project cause he was way to close un contact with REeaper tech and the council feared he gets indoctrinated and not only dooms plan A (Crucible) but also plan B?

 
And plan C (Liara's time capsules). I guess that would make sense. Let's face it, the fact that the reapers never attacked the crucible under construction is a miracle as it is. I mean, they had Udina in their pocket, they had one of the guys who knew everything there was to know about it.
 
But then, I guess as a councilor, Udina would also have known about any ark project, right?
 

Would a wormhole necessarily have been big news? Say it's a one-way phenomenon, which is necessary to contrive in some fashion for the plot anyway. In the absence of a Reaper invasion such a thing would be of no practical use to anybody. After a few centuries would anybody except astrophysicists remember it?

AFAIK, there has never been a wormhole described in the ME universe and the only known means of instant long range travel are the mass relays (which are always big news, whenever something is going on with them). So yea, It sure would have been, especially when it leads to another galaxy of all things.

[Iakus]

Maybe the Relay to Andromeda is a Relay secretly constructed by the Protheans or some other race & not connected to the Citadel? The Protheans knew how to build the Conduit, so I guess such a thing wouldn't be impossible.

 

Just thinking out loud here, though.

Except the COnduit was their first prototype relay.  

[wright1978]

What if Shepard never was told about the ARK Pathfinder Project cause he was way to close un contact with REeaper tech and the council feared he gets indoctrinated and not only dooms plan A (Crucible) but also plan B?

To me it's quite simple. Shep's at risk of indoctrination from all the time he/she has spent with reaper artefacts. In me2 he/she is consorting with Cerberus a group the council disaprove of, by me3 that group has gone loony indoctrinating it's own troops. Then there's the sheer fact shep is going to the front lines to face the reapers and therefore is at risk of being captured and interrogated.
Makes complete sense he/she is kept completely out of the loop regarding contingency planning.

[Jaquio]

"wow we have found a wormhole - we don't know where it's going, but we do know it will collapse in a month or so.. looking for volunteers to go through!!"

 

You really got to have pioneering spirit in order to sign up for something like that.

 

To be fair, 200,000 people signed up for the Mars One project, which is basically a one way death march to a dead planet.

[dreamgazer]

The entire galaxy is at risk of being exposed to indoctrination.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

[CronoDragoon]

1. The fact that you were very limited in RPing Shep in ME3 was one of the issues, most criticized by fans from the get-go (buzzword: auto-dialogue). Especially things like the "we fight or we die" line. If they use this to justify the contrivances of the next game, they are just rubbing it in the fans' faces. I wouldn't like that.

That'd be a very uncharitable reading of what would essentially be self-deprecation, since BW were the ones who wrote that dialogue. Of course some fans would feel that way, since some fans feel like playing the victim in such scenarios regardless of intent.

But I'd like to elaborate a bit and clarify that I don't think this is an ME3 role-playing issue. You can never role-play Shepard in any game outside of wishing to stand up and fight against the Reapers. That's a part of his or her character, plain and simple. It makes him/her arrogant, stubborn, and seemingly foolish, right up until the Crucible fires. I just think the Council not trusting Shepard to deliver is consistent with their relationship from the original trilogy.
 

2. I have no problem with the idea that the council has such a program and no one else knows. My problem is with them having the technology to pull it off and no one else knows. No matter how they do it, be it developing some new drive (in a few mo9nths), retro-engineering reaper tech (which we cannot really do without being indoctrinated and also in that time frame) or conveniently finding a worm whole, just in the nick of time (if it were found before the war, it would have been big news, so they would have had to find it just now), all of those possibilities are very contrived, IMO.

Anything they do will feel contrived, honestly. If it comes down to a matter of plausibility of construction, then I think BioWare has already won, since the vast majority of players will be willing to accept that.

[Iakus]

To me it's quite simple. Shep's at risk of indoctrination from all the time he/she has spent with reaper artefacts. In me2 he/she is consorting with Cerberus a group the council disaprove of, by me3 that group has gone loony indoctrinating it's own troops. Then there's the sheer fact shep is going to the front lines to face the reapers and therefore is at risk of being captured and interrogated.
Makes complete sense he/she is kept completely out of the loop regarding contingency planning.

Except Shepard is entrusted with things like

Sending personel and supplies to the Crucible,

Investigating what the Catalyst is,

Escorting the turian primarch to a summit,

Helping get the krogan into the war,

The salarian Councilor is willing to entrust Shepard with information about the coming Cerberus coup,

Shep's the one entrusted with the location of the Prothean beacon on Thessia...

As well as the location of the Ardat-Yakshi temple

And Shepard leads the assault on Kronos station as well as the final assault on Earth.

 

THese are all highly sensitive, even vital missions Shepard is entrust with details on.  Why clam up about this?

[wright1978]

Except Shepard is entrusted with things like
Sending personel and supplies to the Crucible,
Investigating what the Catalyst is,
Escorting the turian primarch to a summit,
Helping get the krogan into the war,
The salarian Councilor is willing to entrust Shepard with information about the coming Cerberus coup,
Shep's the one entrusted with the location of the Prothean beacon on Thessia...
As well as the location of the Ardat-Yakshi temple
And Shepard leads the assault on Kronos station as well as the final assault on Earth.
 
THese are all highly sensitive, even vital missions Shepard is entrust with details on.  Why clam up about this?

Because the above are all about finding a way to fight the reapers, something shep has shown himself/herself to be the most adept at. Why bring him/her into the loop on an operation that he/she is a liability to if he/she is captured or succumbs to indoctrination & to which they don't add any discernible benefit.

[dreamgazer]

Yeah. Although it's stretching that no one mentioned this to Shepard, I'm starting to come around to the idea that this was a secret Council project. As I said the Citadel DLC established that the Council always believed Shepard that Sovereign was a Reaper, and continued to even though they told Shepard otherwise. The counter was always "then why didn't they freaking do anything?" Well, assuming they didn't want to incite panic, keeping an Ark Contingency secret from the public makes some amount of sense, and not telling Shepard about it in ME2 at least makes some amount of sense given his Cerberus connections.

Seems viable enough, I suppose, though saying the government decided to back an escape plan instead of using the time given to the galaxy by the Protheans to prepare and research isn't exactly encouraging.
 

Let's also be real here: if this was the Council's plan, it makes a hell of a lot more sense than what Shepard was doing in ME3. If the Council takes the claim of billions of years of harvests seriously, then the only conclusion should be to find a way to run instead of fight.

My objection boils down to a few simple questions: Why wouldn't the Reapers keep the galaxy's chaos contained to the Milky Way? Why wouldn't they follow? Why would folks assume that they can get away by flying into darkspace?
 

Does all this take some headcanon and sketchy logic about why none of this is brought up during ME3? Sure.

Absolutely.
 

But you could also have the Council say that Shepard wouldn't listen anyway and was too stubborn and deadset on fighting, which is actually pretty consistent with virtually every way you can RP Shepard in ME3. I'd be amused at such a dig from BioWare at their own writing, as well.

"He told us his plan was that we fight or we die! I mean, what an idiot!"

Yeah, I don't see that going down very well.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Seems viable enough, I suppose, though saying the government decided to back an escape plan instead of using the time given to the galaxy by the Protheans to prepare and research isn't exactly encouraging.

Exactly. If we can somehow develop a ship capable of intergalactic travel, then that technological time and energy could have been spent creating a way to defeat the Reapers since we apparently have technology on par with them. But instead the galactic leaders essentially sign the galaxy's death warrant in order to save an immeasurably small percentage of them.

[wright1978]

And plan C (Liara's time capsules). I guess that would make sense. Let's face it, the fact that the reapers never attacked the crucible under construction is a miracle as it is. I mean, they had Udina in their pocket, they had one of the guys who knew everything there was to know about it. But then, I guess as a councilor, Udina would also have known about any ark project, right? 

As far as I'm aware there is no proof udina was indoctrinated. He's just an idiot from me1 through to 3.

[Iakus]

Because the above are all about finding a way to fight the reapers, something shep has shown himself/herself to be the most adept at. Why bring him/her into the loop on an operation that he/she is a liability to if he/she is captured or succumbs to indoctrination & to which they don't add any discernible benefit.

Like finding equipment and personnel to help with that?  

 

Edit:  Besides which, if hHepard is a liability due to potential indoctrination or whatever, why trust SHepard to the things he/she was entrusted wtih?

[Pasquale1234]

Could CON maybe mean colonization?

How about...

PCNext commands the Tempest and is associated with some project called ARKCON. In the last days of ME3, s/he is recalled to be part of shield in the final push to deliver the Crucible to the Citadel. When Shepard fires the Crucible, the energy blast opens a wormhole that envelopes several of the sword and shield ships. The wormhole quickly collapses.

Or ARKCON could be something they form after arriving in their new destination.

It would allow you to have any number of ships and members of species present in sword / shield transported to the new location.

[Fiery Phoenix]

I highly doubt traveling to Andromeda would be through a relay. As others have suggested in earlier discussions, something akin to a wormhole seems like it's the best bit right now.

 

Not even a mass relay could pull Andromeda's distance of 2.5 million light years from the Milky Way. (For perspective, the Milky Way is only 100,000 light years across.)

[wright1978]

Like finding equipment and personnel to help with that?

If the project was being quietly worked on behind the scenes since the end of ME1 as an emergency contingency they likely would have such things in place and its far more important to maintain the secrecy, which bringing shep in on would endanger.

[ElitePinecone]

Plus being a dig at Shepard would be an insult to the fans who can "make Shepard their own" according to Bioware. It'd be like telling you "Ha Ha, you plated as a stubborn idiot." 

 

I think you're taking a light-hearted and self-referential joke a bit too seriously here.

[CronoDragoon]

Seems viable enough, I suppose, though saying the government decided to back an escape plan instead of using the time given to the galaxy by the Protheans to prepare and research isn't exactly encouraging.

Maybe, but building one exploration ship wouldn't raise the same questions that stockpiling fleet and weaponry would (again, assuming the Council wants to keep this under wraps from the public, or set up red herrings why they are building what they are). And I don't think there's anything in the trilogy that specifically precludes the notion that the Council was researching the Reapers on the side: indeed Sovereign's data being present in their secret archives may suggest the opposite.
 

My objection boils down to a few simple questions: Why wouldn't the Reapers keep the galaxy's chaos contained to the Milky Way? Why wouldn't they follow? Why would folks assume that they can get away by flying into darkspace?

It's already been established that the Reaper's Eye isn't infallible - as Ilos, Javik, and the Crucible plans escaped their detection. We also know it's possible for the Reaper IFF to allow ships to pass unnoticed, though it would take some explaining how the Council gained this tech from the Normandy.
 

Yeah, I don't see that going down very well.

Oh, they'd never do that line specifically. But the general line of thought is that Shepard was already dedicated to fighting the Reapers, and that he wouldn't really be of any help with a contingency plan to escape.

[MrFob]

As far as I'm aware there is no proof udina was indoctrinated. He's just an idiot from me1 through to 3.

 

I may be mistaken, but doesn't it say so in the codex entry about the coup? Not sure though. I am also not sure if that codex entry was supposed to be fact or if it was supposed to just be a theory. If it was not entirely established, than I take back that complaint (although, even than, the fact remains that everyone and their dog seems to know about the crucible anyway).

[Merkit91]

Not even a mass relay could pull Andromeda's distance of 2.5 million light years from the Milky Way. (For perspective, the Milky Way is only 100,000 light years across.)

 

Is there any mentions of relay reach limits in the lore somewhere? We know the one Saren tried to open in ME1 leads deep into the dark space.

[ZoliCs]

It's already been established that the Reaper's Eye isn't infallible - as Ilos, Javik, and the Crucible plans escaped their detection. We also know it's possible for the Reaper IFF to allow ships to pass unnoticed, though it would take some explaining how the Council gained this tech from the Normandy.

Citadel DLC Normandy maintenance?

[Fiery Phoenix]

Is there any mentions of relay reach limits in the lore somewhere? We know the one Saren tried to open in ME1 leads deep into the dark space.

Not that I recall, but a relay to Andromeda would mean there is now somehow an intergalactic network of mass relays rather than just an interstellar network within a single galaxy.

 

Also, at 2.5 million light years, it would be hugely impractical... unless of course BioWare doesn't care about maintaining a certain degree of believability anymore.

[Pasquale1234]

Like finding equipment and personnel to help with that?  
 
Edit:  Besides which, if hHepard is a liability due to potential indoctrination or whatever, why trust SHepard to the things he/she was entrusted wtih?

When it comes to classified information, there is a concept called "need to know".

Even if an individual has a top secret security clearance, they are generally only apprised of things they need to know in order to accomplish the tasks assigned to them.