102 réponses à ce sujet

[Darkstarr11]

Not a fan of characters that just accept everyone and go out of their way to be uber inclusive.  I want that, I'll read Questionable Content.

 

No, seriously, everyone has flaws.  Her issues with Tevinter?  Bull, Cassandra, Solas...wow, you know, there is a pretty long list of characters that have an issue with Tevinter.  Most eventually cut Dorian some slack, but it takes time.  Just, accepting people 'because' makes little sense.  Humans don't work that way.   We'd like them to, but...they don't.  We're tribal by nature.  

 

The lie about the Fade?  Not shocking.  People are in a state of panic.  They are clinging to hope like drowning rats.  Tearing that hope away from them would be foolish.  Part of the job of the Inquisition is providing stability.  That's politics.  Even Josephine advises the soft touch, and to occasionally lie to keep the peace.  You might not like it, but let's face it:  That's how it works.  Thedas, reality...brutal honesty and harsh truths are things we might SAY we want, but most will happily accept the lie instead of accepting a terrible truth.  

 

Does it suck?  Yeah, but it's human.  We all WISH for a better nature, but if we can't be accepting, honest, and tolerant of everyone else no matter what they think, feel, or believe...how can we expect others to be as well.  If we dislike Giselle for her soft touch pragmatism, we have to loathe it from EVERY character who indulges.  I'm more comfortable with that...than with Sera's constant verbal beatdowns on the Dalish.  Unless Viv is in the party.  That's when it's just funny to have her around.

[turuzzusapatuttu]

 

[ModernAcademic]

Then you shouldn't have recruited him. You knew he was Tevinter before you recruited him ( esp, If you met with the Mages before choosing a side.) Mind you, I think it sucks that we can't outright kick any companion after recruitment.  However, you've been given enough info to decide to recruit before recruiting. 

 

Then according to your line of thinking, no one should recruit him at all. That's a possible conclusion you can derive from what was pointed out concerning newcomers (especially foreigners) joining the Inquisition. 

[ModernAcademic]

Once back in Tevinter, Dorian might think sharing a bit of information about the Inquisition won't do any harm, when in fact it could end up providing your enemies with just the information they need. Suppose a friend of his proves to be less than reliable after he's been paid a handome amount of gold to repeat Dorian's words to the wrong ears? A lot of harm can derive from innocent intentions. 

[ModernAcademic]

Even if your Inquisitor comes to trust him, you can never be sure what his role is or how reliable his behaviour will be after you part ways, unless you spy on him, which I'm sure Leliana does without your explicit knowledge. That is, after all, her role, since you cannot fully trust what people tell you. Otherwise, there would be no need for spies in war and politics.

[Hazegurl]

Then you shouldn't have recruited him. You knew he was Tevinter before you recruited him ( esp, If you met with the Mages before choosing a side.) Mind you, I think it sucks that we can't outright kick any companion after recruitment.  However, you've been given enough info to decide to recruit before recruiting. 

 

Then according to your line of thinking, no one should recruit him at all. That's a possible conclusion you can derive from what was pointed out concerning newcomers (especially foreigners) joining the Inquisition. 

You're confusing your own thinking with mine.  I never cared about Dorian being a foreigner.  Or from Tevinter for that matter.  My only concern was whether he worked for the Venatori.  If so, I'd rather have him near and let Leliana deal with him if he became a problem.  I also liked him enough to take a chance with him. 

 

You are the one who mistrusts him based on him being a foreigner and if that is enough to make you extremely suspicious of him then then why on earth would you recruit him?  That's just poor decision making. Why rely on Giselle and an angry mob to do what you couldn't?

 

I decided not to recruit IB in my canon worldstate because he's a Qunari spy.  I kick Sera out in my canon due to how she could possibly ruin the Inquisition's standing with nobility. (Although she's starting to grow on me and I may just keep her in my canon, those damn roof cookie feels. ). 

 

Seriously, none of the optional companions should be recruited if you don't trust them beforehand.  Sadly, we don't have the option to kick them all out whenever we feel like it, if we think we've made a mistake.  But you are given enough info to decide if you want them in your organization.

[Phoe77]

Even if your Inquisitor comes to trust him, you can never be sure what his role is or how reliable his behaviour will be after you part ways, unless you spy on him, which I'm sure Leliana does without your explicit knowledge. That is, after all, her role, since you cannot fully trust what people tell you. Otherwise, there would be no need for spies in war and politics.

 

How is that not true of every one of your companions?  Any one of them could say or do something that damages the Inquisition.  It's not like the Inquisition only has enemies in Tevinter.

[Bob Walker]

Mother Giselle just has a big mouth (literally).

[CathyMe]

Any shred of respect I had for her, I lost it when she tried to whitewash the Chantry's f*** up at the dales (and not only was my quizzie dalish, but she didn't get the option to call her out on it or argue, or b****-slap her), and I started to hate her when she made the crowd sing the chant to my dalish, the same chant that sister Amity sang while destroying the last of the dales, and again the quizzie just stares like a retard, after she blatantly disregards my quizzie's (lack of) belief.And not to mention the cherry-picking regarding the existence of the Maker.  By the time we reach skyhold and tries to get rid of Dorian I hate her too much to say it has any impact on my (low) opinion of her.

[SwobyJ]

I don't hate her as a character. I'm an agnostic athiest and she tickles both my 'hopeful inspiration' side of my opinions on religion, but just as easily hits my 'cherrypicking manipulator' side. Sometimes I lean more to one side than another, and that's how I treat her - sometimes with respect, sometimes with annoyance. But regardless, she played a formative role in the Inquisition, and I'm fine with that. I'd probably be frustrated with her as a person, but still prefer her over the competition in the Chantry...

[thanotos omega]

Did anyone else lose all respect for Mother Giselle shortly after arriving in Skyhold? She spread negative rumors about Dorian, tried to lead him into a trap, constantly spoke badly of him, and tried to make the Inquisitor suspicious of him, all because she feared losing influence. Before Skyhold she seemed like a kind, moral, upstanding woman, only to show her true colours once the evil Tevinter arrived. Honestly, she's just as bad as the rest of the Chantry, and I wish I could kick her out.

 

Almost hate her as much as Diane Allers.

I lost all respect for her when she basically spat in my face like a passive aggressive jerk and the game bent over backwards to say she was right, I hate her on a level no other single character has ever reached,

[MoonDrummer]

She's Orlesian, I never had any respect for her.

[Iakus]

 

Did anyone else lose all respect for Mother Giselle shortly after arriving in Skyhold?

 

No. She was just doing her job to protect the Inquisitor from a foreigner whose true intentions he certainly hid from the Inquisition, no matter how much he pretended to be harmless and fight for justice.

 

I'd say she was the victim of her own good intentions.

 

basically she fell victim to the prejudices most southerners (especially those of the southern Chantry) have against Tevinter.  As such, she had an instinctive prejudice against him, reinforced by the rumors going about concerning him.

 

I do respect her for recognizing the truth of it if you call her on it.  She apologizes and actively works to squash the rumors.

[Phoe77]

I lost all respect for her when she basically spat in my face like a passive aggressive jerk and the game bent over backwards to say she was right, I hate her on a level no other single character has ever reached,

 

Can I ask when she does this?  I don't remember it, so I'm wondering if I missed something with her.  Admittedly, I rarely bother to talk with her once I get to Skyhold even though I don't have a problem with her as a character.

[thanotos omega]

Can I ask when she does this?  I don't remember it, so I'm wondering if I missed something with her.  Admittedly, I rarely bother to talk with her once I get to Skyhold even though I don't have a problem with her as a character.

During the stupid song scene,

[CathyMe]

During the stupid song scene,

Did you pick "I still don't believe" dialogue option. While I wouldn't go so far as saying she spits in your face, I definetly found her reply annoying and a bit self-entitled.

[Deztyn]

Any shred of respect I had for her, I lost it when she tried to whitewash the Chantry's f*** up at the dales (and not only was my quizzie dalish, but she didn't get the option to call her out on it or argue, or b****-slap her), and I started to hate her when she made the crowd sing the chant to my dalish, the same chant that sister Amity sang while destroying the last of the dales, and again the quizzie just stares like a retard, after she blatantly disregards my quizzie's (lack of) belief.And not to mention the cherry-picking regarding the existence of the Maker. By the time we reach skyhold and tries to get rid of Dorian I hate her too much to say it has any impact on my (low) opinion of her.

1) I understand why the conversation about the Exalted March would make any Dalish inquisitor mad. Mine was pretty upset too, and she's a rather progressive/Heretical First who thinks the Dalish need to stop living in the past and just accept that the humans aren't going anywhere.

But it's worth noting that Giselle isn't actually wrong. A true Exalted March would involve all the Andrastian nations coming together against a common enemy. But the Exalted March on the Dales didn't have the support of Fereldan, Nevarra the Free Marches etc. It was an entirely Orlesian War that featured Orlesian troops fighting what was initially a very real threat to Orlais that happened to get a stamp of approval from the Orlesian Chantry.

And the Chantry only gave that Stamp of approval after the Dalish had already sacked Montsimmard and were about to attack Val Royeaux, the home of the Divine herself. It didn't start as a holy war to crush the nonbelievers who were all innocently minding their own business in Halamshiral, even if that's how the Dalish prefer to remember it.

Giselle could have been more sensitive about it, considering the long term effect it had on the Elves. But what she says IS true and she also makes it clear that she believes an Exalted March should only be called when there is a real threat to all of Thedas.



2) The song has nothing to do with your Inquisitor's faith, really. It's about inspiring the Inquisition after they've had their spirit crushed. No matter what your Inquisitor believes it's an organization that is comprised almost entirely of the faithful, who have just seen the Andrastian equivalent of the devil rise up from hell to destroy them. The people need something to cling to-- desperately. Circumstances dictate that regardless of your own beliefs that person is you.

When everyone sees the Devil in the flesh it is NOT the time for the person they think was sent by God to deliver them from his evil to laugh in their faces and tell them their God isn't real.

Giselle would definitely prefer you were a believer, and she does try to convert you, but in the absence of true belief she would at least like you to not actively try to destroy the faith of the people you want to take with you to fight the Devil.

That's not evil or wrong or spiteful to a Dalish Inquisitor. That's just good sense. Solas gets it. The Inquisitor should too. Or she has no business being Inquisitor.

[Phoe77]

I agree about the song scene.  She's not singing for the Inquisitor's benefit and what the Inquisitor personally believes isn't important in that moment.  

 

As to how she presents Chantry history, I think it's obvious that she does her best to cast the Chantry in as positive a light as she can.  She also seems willing to acknowledge that mistakes have been made and that the organization has its shortcomings.  Other characters tend to behave somewhat similarly in regards to their own favorite factions.  

[Korva]

I love The Dawn Will Come, and I especially like the fact that although it is clearly meant to inspire those among the survivors who are faithful, it is still an "inclusive" gesture because it isn't a religious song. A Revered Mother like Giselle is bound to know dozens of explicitly religious hymns for any occasion, yet when she knows something must be done to raise the spirits and morale of both the common folks and the leadership, she picks a simple secular folk song that everyone in this situation can relate to, instead of clubbing them over the head with Maker this, Andraste that. It's a song about being lost and desperate in the dark, which is exactly what all these people are right in that moment, and about nonetheless finding the strength to stand your ground and carry on because the night won't last forever. This scene is one of the biggest reasons why the whole In Your Heart Shall Burn story arc is so fantastic and by far the emotional and narrative climax of the main story. (Unfortunately. The endgame, which I had high hopes for since surely it would be even better, is as pathetic and nonsensical as IYHSB is fantastic.)

 

 

As for the original question: no, not at all. Sure, on a personal level I was not impressed, but from a narrative POV I approve of it, for the same reasons that others have already stated:

 

1) It is perfectly reasonable and in fact sensible to be initially wary of a Tevinter mage who just happens to appear on your doorstep in the middle of a war with Tevinter supremacist mages and their Tevinter supremacist mage would-be god whose actions caused the world-devouring threat of the Blights.

 

2) As much as I like Giselle, she kind of needed some moments in which is a little less "perfect", so being a bit overzealous about those very reasonable suspicions is fine. And as far as flaws go, this is a minor one that she eventually apologizes for, so it's not the end of the world and doesn't come close to outweighing her positive aspects.

 

If anything, it's disappointing that the people's suspicions only ever come up in this conversation with Mother Giselle and in Dorian's own words at the victory party. It's an issue that should be more prominent and that the Inquisitor should be able to get involved in, because both managing people's concerns AND ensuring that everyone is treated fairly are part of being a good leader. And it's not just Dorian who should be getting the side-eye either, but also Solas, Sera and especially Iron Bull. (And Cole, of course, though he's a special case since hardly anyone sees or remembers him.)

 

I did want to have a follow-up private talk with Mother Giselle about it, though. What she did was not acceptable, possible good intentions for a sundered family aside. If my people have concerns, I want and need to hear about them directly.

[Daerog]

Nah, she's alright. She helps out a lot of people, for selfish or selfless reasons, she still aides the refugees and such.

 

She's better than Solas, anyway.

[Darkstarr11]

I also noticed that Giselle never actually attempts to put forward her own name for Divine.  In a way, she seems to aware that she isn't one who should be leading the Chantry.  Someone that IS aware that she has her own biases, and isn't the best person to take the Chantry forward.  Even if your Inquisitor ISN'T of the faith, she puts you up as someone to lead it.  Though she does favor Cassandra to take the Chantry forward, perhaps because it's what she sees as the best path, she doesn't seem to oppose Leland (that I could find at any rate).  She seems to be a kind, but firm woman who is trying to do the best she can, while being aware (as is possible) of her own faults.  Not perfect, and aware of it.  Plus, the fact is she supports you.  I haven't found a situation where she leaves, even when some of your companions MIGHT due to your decisions...that counts for something.

[CathyMe]

1) I understand why the conversation about the Exalted March would make any Dalish inquisitor mad. Mine was pretty upset too, and she's a rather progressive/Heretical First who thinks the Dalish need to stop living in the past and just accept that the humans aren't going anywhere.

But it's worth noting that Giselle isn't actually wrong. A true Exalted March would involve all the Andrastian nations coming together against a common enemy. But the Exalted March on the Dales didn't have the support of Fereldan, Nevarra the Free Marches etc. It was an entirely Orlesian War that featured Orlesian troops fighting what was initially a very real threat to Orlais that happened to get a stamp of approval from the Orlesian Chantry.

And the Chantry only gave that Stamp of approval after the Dalish had already sacked Montsimmard and were about to attack Val Royeaux, the home of the Divine herself. It didn't start as a holy war to crush the nonbelievers who were all innocently minding their own business in Halamshiral, even if that's how the Dalish prefer to remember it.

Giselle could have been more sensitive about it, considering the long term effect it had on the Elves. But what she says IS true and she also makes it clear that she believes an Exalted March should only be called when there is a real threat to all of Thedas.



2) The song has nothing to do with your Inquisitor's faith, really. It's about inspiring the Inquisition after they've had their spirit crushed. No matter what your Inquisitor believes it's an organization that is comprised almost entirely of the faithful, who have just seen the Andrastian equivalent of the devil rise up from hell to destroy them. The people need something to cling to-- desperately. Circumstances dictate that regardless of your own beliefs that person is you.

When everyone sees the Devil in the flesh it is NOT the time for the person they think was sent by God to deliver them from his evil to laugh in their faces and tell them their God isn't real.

Giselle would definitely prefer you were a believer, and she does try to convert you, but in the absence of true belief she would at least like you to not actively try to destroy the faith of the people you want to take with you to fight the Devil.

That's not evil or wrong or spiteful to a Dalish Inquisitor. That's just good sense. Solas gets it. The Inquisitor should too. Or she has no business being Inquisitor.

First I want to clarify that I used the way she acts towards a dalish because my first and most of my quizzies are dalish.
1. I could rant about how the chantry/humans have no excuse for what they did to the elves and neither does she have one for her whitewashing, but that would really derail the thread.

2. Whenever I hear the " but the people believe!" makes me think " is my inquisitor important, or is she just a breach sealer to these people". I get that they believe but they also need to accept that the inquisitor might not. One-sided compromises will breed resentment. If BW wanted to do some hope-bringer musical they could've made her sing around the fire and people joining her, or smth like that.

[TheRevanchist]

First I want to clarify that I used the way she acts towards a dalish because my first and most of my quizzies are dalish.
1. I could rant about how the chantry/humans have no excuse for what they did to the elves and neither does she have one for her whitewashing, but that would really derail the thread.

2. Whenever I hear the " but the people believe!" makes me think " is my inquisitor important, or is she just a breach sealer to these people". I get that they believe but they also need to accept that the inquisitor might not. One-sided compromises will breed resentment. If BW wanted to do some hope-bringer musical they could've made her sing around the fire and people joining her, or smth like that.

 

The Dalish were equally responsible for their fate as much as the humans were. This game makes that very clear. It's time the elves stop trying to blame all of their problems on the evil humans. Blame is never a one sided affair. 2. There's a reason Power is called a Burden. Personal sacrifices are expected from those who have power. Always keep that in mind. Positions of power are often considered a Service to the People, there is a reason for this terminology. 

[Korva]

I also noticed that Giselle never actually attempts to put forward her own name for Divine.  In a way, she seems to aware that she isn't one who should be leading the Chantry.

True. Ironically, she's the one I want to lead the Chantry, the one who I was absolutely certain was being built up by the story as the next Divine. She still makes a whole lot more sense to me than the three candidates we do get.

[Oxytocin_Alice]

I liked the role she played. Dorian is my LI and siding with him against her brought us closer together. The rumour mongering was a surprise layer to her character. I felt she really stooped herself. It's good writing. I guess I default don't like the Chantry so I wasn't surprised she turns out the way she did. I think there's a level of mistrust with all the party members ('cept maybe Varric, but that's because we know him from DA2 - your Quizzy doesn't know him at all). Everyone has an agenda. I like that we get to decide how the party dynamic works.