380 réponses à ce sujet

[Handsome Jack]

So I loved Dragon Age, within the first few minutes of game-play I was hooked. Then came Dragon Age II, I was excited and played through the whole game, while hugely disappointing, I did finish it twice.

 

Now that I've finally found a bit of free time, I picked up Dragon Age Inquisition. It is so boring I can't bring myself to play it. While the game is pretty looking and smooth (PC) Its damn bland, there hasn't been a "hook" for me. I feel bad having spent the money and not even enjoying the game. 

 

I'm not sure if anyone else has had this experience with DAI. I find none of the characters interesting, or worth spending time with. I typically love Bioware games, so somehow I feel this might be just me, but I can't get over it.

 

I'm a die-hard, longtime fan of Origins, and I play it frequently to this day. I gave 2 a try and forced myself through it, because for all its faults it was at least exciting. Then Inquisition came and I got a refund on it after 2 hours of playing it. I was feeling actively tired and painfully bored from it.

[Thandal N'Lyman]

@Handsome Jack;  Yet you hangout on, and post to, a forum dedicated to the very game you returned after two hours...

That's exactly why people say, "Haters gonna hate." 

[iceman228433]

I hear you op I just can't get into DAI, I have tired but it is just not happening.  I can say this, DAI makes me really appreciate how good Dragon Age 2 was, that game is way better compared to this one lol.

[Majestic Jazz]

Yeah it was a disappointment for sure

 

very short and lacking story, a million fetch quests, bland protagonist etc.

there are just too many problems with the game

 

DAI was a serious letdown and I think the problem was that they [Bioware] tried to hard to capture that Skyrim experience and it just didn't translate well into DAI. Asside from the technical limitations that DAI had (it had to be made on last gen consoles as well), I believe that when ME4 comes out and you put them side by side, ME4 would be seen as the better game in terms of characters, locations, execution of story, execution of open world exploration, and cinematic experience. Hell, even the multiplayer may be steps above DAI.

[Marshal Moriarty]

Its a strange argument that some people are making here, saying the War Table missions offer credible reasons for your inquisition gaining strength. Because the War Table doesn't add power, it adds influence. The War Table is where you deploy the forces and resources you have acquired in useful ventures, and ways that will inspire others to assist you. The War Table is about using power you already have, to acquire political connections and influence. But Power, the measure of the Inquisition's actual on hand forces and ability to act on the ground, can only be acquired by the unlikely means I set out earlier - i.e you and 3 friends traipsing about, doing odd jobs for people.

 

So don't lecture me that the War Table describes how the Inquisition becomes so powerful, because it doesn't do anything of the sort. It describes how you convert your Inquisition's existing 'On the Ground' strength and ability to act,,into actual troop deployments and commitment of resources to various theaters of war. The Inquisition's personal resources and troops are not measured by the Influence stat - that measures how much *outside* support you can call on, and what exotic avenues of resources and allies you can draw upon when needed, as well as assigning value when you inflict particularly severe defeats to Corypheus' forces and schemes etc. When you save a town, or ally with a faction, they don't actually become members of the Inquisition. They don't work for you, they are simply motivated now to work *with* you. Influence is the reward for thrifty and sensible use of the strength you already had, to show others are content and impressed with how you are using that power. It all adds to the Inquisition's effective strength and sphere of influence of course, but we are talking about 2 different kinds of strength here.

 

I have no issues with the War Table, and have said many times that whatever other problems I have with this game, I think the War Table was a broadly acceptable means to show how you were affecting the wider world around you. It is simply lamentable that the parts of the game where you are acting yourself, the actual meat of the game, is not as well handled. Because the fact remains that the Inquisition's actual day to day resources, its own troops, corps of labourers, diplomats, engineers, its basic abiltity to tangibly contribute to and address a situation with resources and manpower etc, are measured by Power. And this is acquired by performing utterly trivial and unendingly boring fetch and carry quests, as well as peforming all manner of bizarrely small time tasks. All of which are performed by you. *All* of them. Its utter nonsense. Did Charlemagne go around unblocking people's drains and bringing in the cows from the top fields, to amass his armies? Did Napoleon mow people's lawns and ride out with a small posse of vigilantes and bring small time crooks to justice to fund his campaigns? 

 

You need something to do, and we need to see how the Inquisition is acquiring its raw materials, its troops etc. But having the answer be that you personally are going out and gathering all this stuff yourself, and recruiting everyone yourself is absurd. Obviously your forces are doing this too, but they do not and cannot contribute to the actual Power score, only you can. So it feels like the Inquisition is gaining its resources and manpower, purely through your actions, roaming about. Which is just daft.

 

And saying that not seeing large spectacle in the war scenes, not seeing your (somewhat) hard won allies in action, is because 'the game isn't about that...' Well, if that;s the case, tell Bioware to stop making large wars the main focus of their games! Winning wars without actually having to fight them, makes it feel like nothing is actually happening. It undermines the idea that you are supposed to be in a dire situation, taking decisions which could decide the fate of tens of thousands. They do not sell the scale of the threat, and they never do in any of their games. And they are always told this, yet they never listen.

 

 

We're not asking for very much here. All we want is for the story's central premise to be given the respect it should command, to be able to see often and in well written, dramatically powerful ways, reasons why we need to do all of this in the first place. Don't just have 1 scene and say 'That's that, get to it' and then let it slide until the very end, when you win in about half a hour or less - you know, like they *always* do! And at least give our characters the chance to do things which feel like they would actually help, and which require special attention from you. The majority of the 'content' in this game, is stuff, which whilst some of it is important, it could just as easily be handled by your troops, by your scouts.

 

IMO, this game would have worked better if it had emulated old games like the original Dune game on the PC. A mix of your character and his team going on small missions to important locations, mixed with resource management and war game style troop deployment etc. You could still roam about your base in that game and talk to all your advisors, so it didn't skimp on the small scale, and it delivered on the large scale too. Its a very old game, and I;m not saying it should have been a like for like replacement.

 

But drowning us in these utterly trivial tasks, all in service of amassking an army that we never get to command, in a war we never see, against enemies we know basically nothing about and see only a couple of times... How can that be the answer?!

[Majestic Jazz]

Its a strange argument that some people are making here, saying the War Table missions offer credible reasons for your inquisition gaining strength. Because the War Table doesn't add power, it adds influence. The War Table is where you deploy the forces and resources you have acquired in useful ventures, and ways that will inspire others to assist you. The War Table is about using power you already have, to acquire political connections and influence. But Power, the measure of the Inquisition's actual on hand forces and ability to act on the ground, can only be acquired by the unlikely means I set out earlier - i.e you and 3 friends traipsing about, doing odd jobs for people.

So don't lecture me that the War Table describes how the Inquisition becomes so powerful, because it doesn't do anything of the sort. It describes how you convert your Inquisition's existing 'On the Ground' strength and ability to act,,into actual troop deployments and commitment of resources to various theaters of war. The Inquisition's personal resources and troops are not measured by the Influence stat - that measures how much *outside* support you can call on, and what exotic avenues of resources and allies you can draw upon when needed. When you save a town, or ally with a faction, they don't actually become members of the Inquisition. They don't work for you, they are simply motivated now to work *with* you. Influence is the reward for thrifty and sensible use of the strength you already had, to show others are content and impressed with how you are using that power. It all adds to the Inquisition's effective strength and sphere of influence of course, but we are talking about 2 different kinds of strength here.

I have no issues with the War Table, and have said many times that whatever other problems I have with this game, I think the War Table was a broadly acceptable means to show how you were affecting the wider world around you. It is simply lamentable that the parts of the game where you are acting yourself, the actual meat of the game, is not as well handled. Because the fact remains that the Inquisition's actual day to day resources, its own troops, corps of labourers, diplomats, engineers, its basic abiltity to tangibly contribute to and address a situation with resources and manpower etc, are measured by Power. And this is acquired by performing utterly trivial and unendingly boring fetch and carry quests, as well as peforming all manner of bizarrely small time tasks. All of which are performed by you. *All* of them. Its utter nonsense. Did Charlemagne go around unblocking people's drains and bringing in the cows from the top fields, to amass his armies? Did Napoleon mow people's lawns and ride out with a small posse of vigilantes and bring small time crooks to justice to fund his campaigns?

You need something to do, and we need to see how the Inquisition is acquiring its raw materials, its troops etc. But having the answer be that you personally are going out and gathering all this stuff yourself, and recruiting everyone yourself is absurd. Obviously your forces are doing this too, but they do not and cannot contribute to the actual Power score, only you can. So it feels like the Inquisition is gaining its resources and manpower, purely through your actions, roaming about. Which is just daft.

And saying that not seeing large spectacle in the war scenes, not seeing your (somewhat) hard won allies in action, is because 'the game isn't about that...' Well, if that;s the case, tell Bioware to stop making large wars the main focus of their games! Winning wars without actually having to fight them, makes it feel like nothing is actually happening. It undermines the idea that you are supposed to be in a dire situation, taking decisions which could decide the fate of tens of thousands. They do not sell the scale of the threat, and they never do in any of their games. And they are always told this, yet they never listen.


We're not asking for very much here. All we want is for the story's central premise to be given the respect it should command, to be able to see often and in well written, dramatically powerful ways, reasons why we need to do all of this in the first place. Don't just have 1 scene and say 'That's that, get to it' and then let it slide until the very end, when you win in about half a hour or less - you know, like they *always* do! And at least give our characters the chance to do things which feel like they would actually help, and which require special attention from you. The majority of the 'content' in this game, is stuff, which whilst some of it is important, it could just as easily be handled by your troops, by your scouts.

IMO, this game would have worked better if it had emulated old games like the original Dune game on the PC. A mix of your character and his team going on small missions to important locations, mixed with resource management and war game style troop deployment etc. You could still roam about your base in that game and talk to all your advisors, so it didn't skimp on the small scale, and it delivered on the large scale too. Its a very old game, and I;m not saying it should have been a like for like replacement.

But drowning us in these utterly trivial tasks, all in service of amassking an army that we never get to command, in a war we never see, against enemies we see only a couple of times... How can that be the answer?!

Well said

[Marshal Moriarty]

lol!

 

It just doesn't make any sense that the only stat which counts in terms of your ability to tackle the Main Quests, is Power, and that Power is acquired through such absurdly unlikely means. I like the idea of the World Map, and it is satisying to apply your forces to the various problems, But the stat you get - Influence - counts for *nothing^ in the narrative. All the text from the completed operations leads you to believe that doing these missions has made the world safer, the Enemy weaker, the Inquisition stronger.

 

But that isn't the reality in game at all. The only way to progress the Main Quests is acquire Power. Influence never comes into it, so all these victories you are winning on the War Table count for *nothing*. You might as well not even have done them for all they matter to the game's story! Liberating cities from demons, killing enemy forces, rooting out spies, opening trade routes and making powerful allies... None of it makes the slightest difference to anything. Even at the end of the story, making Influence less important than Mass Effect 3's EMS stat bar! Now that's an achievement!.

 

It just leaves you thinking 'Why did I do any of that stuff in the War Room, again?' Why, for the Perks of course! Big fricking deal! I don't know why its so hard for them to understand that endings like that of Dragon Age Origins, and Obsidian's Fallout: New Vegas, that take all your decisions into account and give you satisfying closure, not to mention a huge range of different possible scenarios for each of them. That's how it should be done. Not some 10 second roundup of the Main Quest stuff, which ignores everything else!

[Eterna]

The story was adversely affected by the semi open world. If this is what we have to sacrifice for said open world then I never want them to do it again. 

[Majestic Jazz]

The story was adversely affected by the semi open world. If this is what we have to sacrifice for said open world then I never want them to do it again.

I am a big advocate for open world games as they give the player a bigger playing space and freedom to approach the story in their own manner. Open world also adds for better replay value. Problem with DAI wasnt the open world but they style of gameplay which was more like an offline MMO where the critical path was like only 10% of the missions. There were a few maps that only had one critical path missions and many other maps had no critical path missions, just 100% side quest!

[Sylvius the Mad]

I am a big advocate for open world games as they give the player a bigger playing space and freedom to approach the story in their own manner. Open world also adds for better replay value. Problem with DAI wasnt the open world but they style of gameplay which was more like an offline MMO where the critical path was like only 10% of the missions. There were a few maps that only had one critical path missions and many other maps had no critical path missions, just 100% side quest!

Unless the critical path missions can be done in any order, I question the value of an open world if the content there isn't mostly optional.

Personally, I think DAI gets the proportions juat about perfect. 2 Inquisitors might have very different paths through the game.

[Lebanese Dude]

 I got a refund on it after 2 hours of playing it. I was feeling actively tired and painfully bored from it.

 

This....explains so much.

 

I mean I could tell from your posts really but this just confirmed it.

[Lebanese Dude]

 

IMO, this game would have worked better if it had emulated old games like the original Dune game on the PC. 

 

Your post had a couple of reasonable points, but I'm just gonna zero in on this particular quote in response to most of what you said.

 

You want the game to be something it's not. That's fine, but it doesn't make the game itself flawed. 

 

I liked most aspects of DAI, just as I dislike many aspects of other games that a few people here routinely put on a pedestal as a comparison.

[Marshal Moriarty]

The fact that the game isn't how I would wish it to be, is not the issue really. You have quoted one small off the cuff remark there. My point there was simply that if Bioware insist on keeping this focus on large scale warfare as the backdrop, and even go so far as to put in de facto charge of an actual army this time, then Dune offered a useful insight into how a game like this could have incorporated such into its gameplay.

 

I'm perfectly willing to accept games on their own merits, rather than what I hoped they would be. If I didn't, then I wouldn't be able to play many games at all! Mass Effect 2 is a case in point. I think its probably Bioware;s most complete product in terms of serviceable (though by no means great and really quite silly at times) narrative, great production values, decent cast of characters, acceptable dialogue etc etc. I know its a great game, but it is in no way the game I wanted it to be, and the change in tone from Mass Effect 1's hard sci-fi to more pulpy film noir/sci fi ripping yarn adventure, was extremely dispiriting for me. I have no problem with the latter (in fact I like it very much), but I would have preferred something more tonally consistent with the first game. It was exchanging one thing I like for another thing I like, but at the expense of continuity and immersion in the continuing storyline etc,

 

But I could deal with it, so long as I just considered them seperate entities. And if that was all that Inquisition had against it, then I would have no problem here either. I could just take this game for the experience it was offering and though I still wouldn't exactly be happy with this new direction, it wouldn't bother me because the decision has been made and you've just hot to make your peace with it. Same with my love of Resident Evil - its an action franchise these days, but I still love the world of RE, so I've had to swallow my reservations and just deal with it. Alas, that isn't the case here. Having a new direction is one thing, but doing it as badly as this is quite another. The large areas with nothing of interest, the deluge of trivial busy work, the fumbled narrative, the terrible new system where you don't have close ups of the people you're speaking to. I mean we all know (whether you agree with them or not) what the main sticking points are by now for people who don't like the game.

 

Basically, the fact that game is so different wasn't ideal, but not in itself the problem, The problem is that it just isn't a good game, its new ideas are badly implemented, and at best add nothing to the game, whereas other issues (the abstracted interactions with companions, the generally lacklustre quests, the fetch and carry hell of it all) wear down even some of the most ardent DA fans.

 

But its that lack of a reason to care that stings the most. When you stop in the middle of one these huge zones, and think 'Why on earth am I doing this - I'm not enjoying it at all!' When you realize you simply don't care about any of it. You don't want to fight this war for the vague reasons they are giving, you have no sense of connection to your character, to the story, your companions or to the main villain. That all that awaits you in the coming hours is yet more slogging around, gathering herbs and assorted odds and ends, for quests that have almost no substance whatsoever. At those times, I felt nothing but despair in a series that usually brings me great joy to play.

 

And yes, banging on about it will probably upset those who did like it. And I don't frequent this board much anymore, because I don't see the point in repeating this day in and day out for the next couple of years. But every so often I do drop back in, because I do care about this series and Bioware in general. And I like others who feel the same, desperately want Bioware to rethink this new course. Because if their subsequent games in DA or Mass Effect are like this, then we are going to drop out entirely - which we *do not want to do!* We love Bioware, but bad games are bad games. Bad decisions are bad decisions, Yes, its all just opinions, but opinions are all any of us have to express how we really feel about these things we care about.

[CronoDragoon]

I have no issues with the War Table, and have said many times that whatever other problems I have with this game, I think the War Table was a broadly acceptable means to show how you were affecting the wider world around you. It is simply lamentable that the parts of the game where you are acting yourself, the actual meat of the game, is not as well handled. Because the fact remains that the Inquisition's actual day to day resources, its own troops, corps of labourers, diplomats, engineers, its basic abiltity to tangibly contribute to and address a situation with resources and manpower etc, are measured by Power. And this is acquired by performing utterly trivial and unendingly boring fetch and carry quests, as well as peforming all manner of bizarrely small time tasks. All of which are performed by you. *All* of them. Its utter nonsense. Did Charlemagne go around unblocking people's drains and bringing in the cows from the top fields, to amass his armies? Did Napoleon mow people's lawns and ride out with a small posse of vigilantes and bring small time crooks to justice to fund his campaigns? 

 

Power is mostly not gained through fetching. Sometimes a fetch quest will produce Power if it makes sense (like supply caches) but the overwhelming majority of the Power you get in the game comes from Rifts, camps, Keeps, Dragons, companion quests, etc.

 

Now, it's clear that BioWare wanted to work in a bit more of the war as you describe here. Keep defenses, for example, were cut because they wouldn't work on old-gen systems. And Mark Darrah has stated that one of their regrets in general was not allowing you to use the Inquisition more as a force in the world.

 

Certainly, that would have improved the game. But you're drastically overstating the degree to which the game asks you to complete small quests in exchange for Power. It's a trivial task to complete the entire game without doing a single fetch quest. I know because I just did it on my second playthrough.

[Das Tentakel]

Power is mostly not gained through fetching. Sometimes a fetch quest will produce Power if it makes sense (like supply caches) but the overwhelming majority of the Power you get in the game comes from Rifts, camps, Keeps, Dragons, companion quests, etc.

Now, it's clear that BioWare wanted to work in a bit more of the war as you describe here. Keep defenses, for example, were cut because they wouldn't work on old-gen systems. And Mark Darrah has stated that one of their regrets in general was not allowing you to use the Inquisition more as a force in the world.

Certainly, that would have improved the game. But you're drastically overstating the degree to which the game asks you to complete small quests in exchange for Power. It's a trivial task to complete the entire game without doing a single fetch quest. I know because I just did it on my second playthrough.

However, this is something many players only realise after an initial playthrough, when you can evaluate the game and assess what you need to reach the end more properly.
There’s also the argument (that I would make) that all the excess fluff shouldn’t have been in the game at all, given the role of the Inquisitor and the overall storyline. Moreover, the ‘fluffy’ content is the bulk of the content in terms of wasting time, even if it’s not necessary to do (all) of it.
It’s a more general problem with a lot of open-worldy games, but the dissonance between your character’s role and the actual nature of the bulk of the content is exceptionally painful and obvious in the case of DA:I. I can understand why it ended up this way – mechanically, the Dragon Age games (and many other cRPG’s) aren’t well suited for this kind of story. But…my conclusion would be to 1. change / don't do that kind of story, or 2. drastically change the mechanics, meaning get mechanics into the game that simulate warfare and diplomacy much better.

We’ve had strategy / RPG hybrid games for quite a while now (Age of Wonders et al), but none of those would quite work with a fully 3D environment (not without drastic changes).
There is an old exception, however. Aeons ago, on the humble ZX Spectrum, the late Mike Singleton programmed two games – Lords of Midnight and Doomdark’s Revenge – in which you actually control characters in a 3D landscape AND direct armies. The ‘Singletonian’ approach would need some work. For instance, in the Midnight games battles occured when forces ran into each other, but the actual fighting took place after you ended your turn (the Midnight games were turn-based), was abstracted and the outcome calculated by the computer.

[Lebanese Dude]

However, this is something many players only realise after an initial playthrough, when you can evaluate the game and assess what you need to reach the end more properly.
There’s also the argument (that I would make) that all the excess fluff shouldn’t have been in the game at all, given the role of the Inquisitor and the overall storyline. Moreover, the ‘fluffy’ content is the bulk of the content in terms of wasting time, even if it’s not necessary to do (all) of it.

 

This is extreme hyperbole.

 

The bulk of the relatively simple quests occur in the Hinterlands when they make most sense.

At that point the Inquisition is relatively young. At that point you are still an agent of the Inquisition who is gathering influence and power for your organization by any means necessary. It's relatively simple to know what quests have "content' as opposed to those that don't.

After the Hinterlands, each zone has only one or two true fetch quests that still have some context that allows degrees of roleplaying, like the two fetch quests in Exalted Plains that are given by a Gaspard and Celene soldier.

 

Even so, many people here completely undermine the importance those little fetch quests have on shaping the character of your Inquisitor. Sure, fulfilling a random woman's wish to release her son's ashes at the edge of the Emerald Graves may seem a trivial task, but it's still a task undertaken by your Inquisitor to realize a characteristic you have assigned for them.

 

In one playthrough, my Andrastian warrior did it out of respect for the Maker. In another, my elven mage pitied the woman despite not believing in the Maker. In a third, my dwarven rogue scoffed at the idea of doing this menial task and moved along.

 

They're even recognized by your characters. Incremental relationship changes as they see a side of your Inquisitor.

 

Honestly it feels that many people here who claim to want immersion don't even bother to do so, failing to even attempt to involve themselves in the quests as trivial as they seem.

 

You claim that the "bulk" of the quests are fetch quests. Ignoring the fact that everything can be classified as a fetch quest if you try hard enough, you'd see that this is not the case.

 

Most of your time spent in DAI is:

 

1) Exploring the areas

2) Developing relationships with your companions, advisors, and major NPCs via dialogue and action.

3) Completing the main missions of the zones (including the temple exploration)

4) Completing the main quest chain intermittently throughout the game.

5) Sealing rifts

6) Collecting materials for crafting / crafting and improving Skyhold

7) Completing trivial side content

 

It's arguable that 1) takes a significant portion of gameplay time. A lot of people here tout that they spend a lot of time doing "fetch quests" when what they're actually doing is traveling throughout the zones in order to complete them. There is literally almost no grinding in the game for completing those quests. They're simply there to guide you throughout the area as you complete the more plot-critical missions. If there are any "grindy" quests, they all occur in the Hinterlands.

Just take the Fallow Mire as an example. You have to find the missing soldiers. While doing that you can clear the marsh of undead by completing a VERY hard kill quest chain to purge the undead influences. You can find and defeat a renegade mage who wrecked havoc on the local populace. etc... You do all that WHILE exploring to find the missing soldiers. 

 

A very significant amount of time is spent speaking to those you know. How much time do you go back to Haven/Skyhold to talk to your allies? How much time do you spend assisting them? True there are some "fetch quests" involved in attempting to make them like you, but  those are purely meant to give a bump to your relationship. They take the role that "gifts" had in DAO, except they're far more nuanced and interesting. There is not much character-building by giving Alistair a runestone, but an Anti-Circle mage might take issue with helping Vivienne recover tomes for the Circle. Someone who despises running errands for people would not help Blackwall, etc..

 

Every zone you enter has a main mission to complete. You go to the Emerald Graves to cleanse the "cult" that is forming there. You go to the Exalted Plains to assist the soliders and that takes a LOT of your time, from clearing out the undead-infested barricades to saving Celene's soldiers from a trap-ridden Elven fort. The questlines in this area heavily relate to the ones in Emerald Graves, so there's some inter-zone story going on here.

Also in the Exalted Plains, you can either develop a symbiotic relationship with the Elven clan or you can go out of your way to **** them over in every shape or form from killing their sacred creatures, to plundering their structures in the name of loot, to giving the Chantry the true account of what happened at the Red Crossing. 

 

The main quests speak for themselves. 

Sealing rifts is the "primary" purpose of your Inquisitor. Complaining about doing those is similar to complaining about driving in a racing game. You're here to stop demons, so stop demons.

 

Crafting takes a major role in Inquisition, offering the character ways to develop their squad in an alternative way. This part is integrated with exploration since you normally collect materials while exploring. Still, you go out of of your way to acquire materials and schematics to upgrade your character and take an active hand in developing your character.

You can upgrade potions and grenades for various effects and purposes. Many times those upgrades are integrated into character development. Is it not better that they are separated?

While exploring, you can collect materials in order to craft those upgrades. Speaking as an RPG player, when I found the first "Crystal Grace" I was happy as hell and went back to Haven to get the upgrade for a potion I wanted.
Crafting gear acts as an alternate form to acquire upgrades for your character. You can develop them in any way you wish and create your own unique style. 

 

Only after all this do I consider the time spent on fetch quests. Even the most basic of "fetch quests" from unlocking astrariums to collecting shards have relevance. The former gives you detailed codex entries regarding previously unknown lore and history, while the latter gives you character upgrades in a concentrated location to serve as some game-spanning mystery to solve. What's the deal with Solasan?

 

Is anyone going to claim that fetch quests took MOST of their gameplay time? They're lying. In fact I'd make the bold claim that the same people who call DAI a "fetch quest extravaganza" also dislike exploration and would prefer linear quest chains like in DAO.

 

That's fine, but DAI was marketed as an exploration-heavy game. As I said before in a previous post, this is how the game is. It's not a fault, so either deal with it since you bought it, or move on to another game that is more aligned to your interests.

[CronoDragoon]

However, this is something many players only realise after an initial playthrough, when you can evaluate the game and assess what you need to reach the end more properly.

That's true to an extent. Certainly the ability to skip shards and the Oasis in totality is a bit counterintiutive, for example. But I would think it's fairly obvious at the very latest once you get to Skyhold what types of activities will gain you Power, and more importantly that Power is almost obscenely abundant considering how much you are asked to use.

Now, we could have a discussion about whether gating missions through Power was a good decision. I'd argue it was, as the story's narrative doesn't hold much weight unless you are actually building the Inquisition through (to be frank) conquest mixed with a type of colonialism. At the same time, I can understand how it would be frustrating for players who only want to experience the story.
 

There’s also the argument (that I would make) that all the excess fluff shouldn’t have been in the game at all, given the role of the Inquisitor and the overall storyline. Moreover, the ‘fluffy’ content is the bulk of the content in terms of wasting time, even if it’s not necessary to do (all) of it.
It’s a more general problem with a lot of open-worldy games, but the dissonance between your character’s role and the actual nature of the bulk of the content is exceptionally painful and obvious in the case of DA:I. I can understand why it ended up this way – mechanically, the Dragon Age games (and many other cRPG’s) aren’t well suited for this kind of story. But…my conclusion would be to 1. change / don't do that kind of story, or 2. drastically change the mechanics, meaning get mechanics into the game that simulate warfare and diplomacy much better.

The War Table handles diplomacy pretty well, I think. It makes sense that most of this is going to be done through proxies and letter-writing. The missions also do well giving you multiple outcomes with varying degrees of success based on how you read the situation. As far as simulating warfare: I agree I'd like to see more of it. The Suikoden games actually feature these gameplay systems: it's largely a traditional JRPG but at various points in the story you'll partake in battles that represent potential turning points in the war or key victories. I think this may have been what the Keep system was supposed to be before it was cut. That's a shame since it sounded like such a cool idea.

As for your character's role, there are a few ways we could go here. But I'd suggest it makes as much sense if not moreso for your character to be closing Rifts around Thedas as opposed to formulating and executing grand military strategy. Indeed, that's how I largely role-play my characters: I'm here to close Rifts in these areas, and anything I accomplish along the way is gravy. Since Rifts are evenly distributed over zones, you gain a ton of EXP, Influence, and Power playing the game this way. It's certainly not the only enjoyable way to play the game, of course, but I'd posit that those who enjoyed playing the game happened to finish quests while they were exploring zones, establishing camps, and closing Rifts, instead of actively thinking of their time being spent as "trivial tasking." In my experience, Inquisition rarely asks you to backtrack through zones (shards are an exception, reason #34 to say screw em) so going through zones tends to involve killing 9-10 birds with one zone. By the time the map is been fully, er, mapped, you should have effectively completed 97% of the content in the zone.

Of course, I love the combat in this game, so closing Rifts never got old. But I could sympathize with a criticism that suggests there should be less Rifts per zone, but make them more threatening with more varied encounter design. I could get behind that.

A lot of people here tout that they spend a lot of time doing "fetch quests" when what they're actually doing is traveling throughout the zones in order to complete them.

Sealing rifts is the "primary" purpose of your Inquisitor.

I see we agree on these points.

In fact I'd make the bold claim that the same people who call DAI a "fetch quest extravaganza" also dislike exploration and would prefer linear quest chains like in DAO.

I know that's true for me. I tend to grow bored of openish world games, and it's kind of a miracle that Inquisition got me to enjoy exploring zones. At the same time, I still prefer linear experiences. And while that's certainly not Inquisition's fault, I also have no problem letting it known that I'd probably prefer DA4 to be more like the first two games in terms of game structure.

[RedLens37]

Honestly it feels that many people here who claim to want immersion don't even bother to do so, failing to even attempt to involve themselves in the quests as trivial as they seem.

 

I think getting that first 4(?) points of power to get to Val Royeaux is one of the most fun parts of the game. How does my inquisitor's character start to develop? What does he see as most important when first arriving in the Hinterlands? Find meat? Locate supplies? Close a rift? This is building the foundation for what my character will become. "Fetchy" quests? I guess, but no one is forcing me down a particular path. I don't have to go kill 10 rams, but if my character decides to do it, what's the big deal?

 

It's understandable I guess that some need their "immersion" spoon-fed to them, but calling DAI boring just intimates a lack of imagination.

[Das Tentakel]

That's true to an extent. Certainly the ability to skip shards and the Oasis in totality is a bit counterintiutive, for example. But I would think it's fairly obvious at the very latest once you get to Skyhold what types of activities will gain you Power, and more importantly that Power is almost obscenely abundant considering how much you are asked to use.

At some point yes - you'll see that you have more Power than necessary. By that time, however, a new player will have spent considerable time going through some of the, erm, least inspired content in DA:I. That's not really a smart design decision in my view, regardless of how one judges the final product. And don't underestimate the completist urge in many players, which will make some of them HATE the game...
 

Now, we could have a discussion about whether gating missions through Power was a good decision. I'd argue it was, as the story's narrative doesn't hold much weight unless you are actually building the Inquisition through (to be frank) conquest mixed with a type of colonialism. At the same time, I can understand how it would be frustrating for players who only want to experience the story.

That was not my perception, to be honest (and I don't think I'm the only one here). After the prolog, you're definitely the Inquisition's main asset and one of its de facto leaders, even if your formal elevation has to wait until Skyhold.
It makes sense that you close rifts - accompanied by an escort, I might add, that should be more substantial than some of the Inquisition's other main assets - but eliminating camps X, Y, Z, clearing out dungeons, gathering resources? I admire some people's ability to 'head-canon' around it, but it didn't work for me. And frankly, giving an in-game 'reason' to do something doesn't cut it either; those reasons have to make some sense in the wider context because otherwise you're doing stuff because 'reasons'.
Having the ability to close rifts? Check. Closing rifts? Check. Sweeping areas clean of Templars, Mages, cultists, tax collectors, smurfs, barghests and mutant carrots from planet X on my own (albeit with the aid of a small party?). Duh...

 

I certainly didn't have the feeling I 'conquered' territories. I was slaughtering extras so I could fulfil the conditions necessary to 'pacify' (or should I say 'cleanse') areas, but it didn't feel like conquest. I'm probably old-fashioned, but conquest in my mind involves moving and leading armies, not four guys engaging in mass murder followed by mere handfuls of easily slaughtered extras occupying some small encampments.
 

The War Table handles diplomacy pretty well, I think. It makes sense that most of this is going to be done through proxies and letter-writing. The missions also do well giving you multiple outcomes with varying degrees of success based on how you read the situation.

Agreed, although personal diplomacy by the Supreme Honcho aka the Inquisitor, certainly in some of the more high-level sounding missions, is very easy to envision. What's more, many of those missions sound far more interesting and appropriate than many of the non-necessary or even companion quests. But I think this is more of a 'Pity BioWare didn't...' thing than a real problem for me.
 

As far as simulating warfare: I agree I'd like to see more of it. The Suikoden games actually feature these gameplay systems: it's largely a traditional JRPG but at various points in the story you'll partake in battles that represent potential turning points in the war or key victories. I think this may have been what the Keep system was supposed to be before it was cut. That's a shame since it sounded like such a cool idea.

I don't think many people expected Total War meets Dragon Age, particularly because technology would have forced a major 'scaling down' (the same problem Oblivion and Skyrim had, with major fights involving only small numbers of combatants). Or you have to turn it into a linear dungeon mixed with some cutscenes, like

Spoiler

the assault on Adamant,

but that is probably very expensive in terms of resources and has another problem: Again, why is the Inquisitor risking his / her neck (you could put a rift in each fortress or city taken, but that gets old - fast)? Maybe they could have shifted some resources towards making a number of (interactive?) cutscenes to show battles or the bloody and grisly aftermath of them, in order to give the armed struggle some visual / narrative 'body'? Right now, only the

Spoiler

attacks on Haven and Adamant

really give something of the impression that there is an actual war going on*.

 

Mind you, a lot of this is stuff why, for instance, the civil war in Skyrim also fell flat with me and others have made mods to partially solve this problem. The world is burning, but mechanically and technologically the game just can't simulate this properly.

 

In the end, I will probably agree that the ability to 'oversee' it, 'head-canon' it or whatever may make a big difference how one sees DA:I's narrative. But there is a lot in the game that actively works against it, and I think people should not underestimate that, no matter how much people may personally like / love the game.
 


*Yes, there are abandoned field fortifications etc., but that kind of static stuff quickly becomes some kind of 'background clutter' while you kill things and loot their bodies. A cutscene of mangonels pummeling city walls and soldiers breaking through the gaps and proceeding to massacre the population works a lot better...

[Majestic Jazz]

snip

 

This guy explains it better:

 

 

 

You need something to do, and we need to see how the Inquisition is acquiring its raw materials, its troops etc. But having the answer be that you personally are going out and gathering all this stuff yourself, and recruiting everyone yourself is absurd. Obviously your forces are doing this too, but they do not and cannot contribute to the actual Power score, only you can. So it feels like the Inquisition is gaining its resources and manpower, purely through your actions, roaming about. Which is just daft.

 

 

 

 

[CronoDragoon]

It makes sense that you close rifts - accompanied by an escort, I might add, that should be more substantial than some of the Inquisition's other main assets - but eliminating camps X, Y, Z, clearing out dungeons, gathering resources? I admire some people's ability to 'head-canon' around it, but it didn't work for me. And frankly, giving an in-game 'reason' to do something doesn't cut it either; those reasons have to make some sense in the wider context because otherwise you're doing stuff because 'reasons'.
Having the ability to close rifts? Check. Closing rifts? Check. Sweeping areas clean of Templars, Mages, cultists, tax collectors, smurfs, barghests and mutant carrots from planet X on my own (albeit with the aid of a small party?). Duh...

So why not just close Rifts, establishing camps on the way? Why isn't it viable to role-play an Inquisitor solely concerned with their role as Rift-closer? Ignore quests that don't contribute towards this. Those quests are mostly for people not nearly as concerned with why the Inquisitor is doing normal RPG content; ie the majority of players.
 
 

I certainly didn't have the feeling I 'conquered' territories. I was slaughtering extras so I could fulfil the conditions necessary to 'pacify' (or should I say 'cleanse') areas, but it didn't feel like conquest. I'm probably old-fashioned, but conquest in my mind involves moving and leading armies, not four guys engaging in mass murder followed by mere handfuls of easily slaughtered extras occupying some small encampments.

The Inquisition is ostensibly an independent military faction that is establishing bases of Power and influence in several areas of several countries, and your camps and Keeps don't disappear once the Rifts are closed; the Inquisition could and does do whatever it wants in many of these areas, from extracting revenue through the local economy (including natural resources) to recruiting. Part of why I said it's conquest mixed with colonization is because many of these areas are either abandoned or being freed of a hostile takeover (Venatori, for example) but it's not like the Inquisition simply leaves after it's done driving out Corypheus's forces. And there are a variety of activities the Inquisitor starts besides killing dudes, such as building or repairing towers and occupying them (Emprise), rebuilding bridges, conquering Keeps, driving out darkspawn, etc etc etc. In many ways they are now responsible for the well-being of the areas they now inhabit, which is supported by the fact that by the time you're done mapping a zone there are Inquisition soldiers/personnel EVERYWHERE. One of the interesting political angles for the DAverse going forward is if the codex decides to address how Ferelden and Orlais will deal with the Inquisition having such a strong foothold in its territories now that the immediate threat has passed. The Inquisition, after all, has poured a lot of resources into rebuilding these areas, and I doubt they'll simply fork them over to King Alistair (for example) now that Ferelden is done cowering from Corypheus.
 
 

I don't think many people expected Total War meets Dragon Age, particularly because technology would have forced a major 'scaling down' (the same problem Oblivion and Skyrim had, with major fights involving only small numbers of combatants). Or you have to turn it into a linear dungeon mixed with some cutscenes, like

Spoiler

the assault on Adamant,

but that is probably very expensive in terms of resources and has another problem: Again, why is the Inquisitor risking his / her neck (you could put a rift in each fortress or city taken, but that gets old - fast)? Maybe they could have shifted some resources towards making a number of (interactive?) cutscenes to show battles or the bloody and grisly aftermath of them, in order to give the armed struggle some visual / narrative 'body'? Right now, only the

Spoiler

attacks on Haven and Adamant

really give something of the impression that there is an actual war going on*.

In the Suikoden example it's an entirely separate battle system constructed specifically for the large-scale battles, a type of mini-RTS. The Inquisition analogue would probably be a super-zoomed in, interactive War Table map of the battle that you can direct. I wonder to what extent that would have helped the macro scene of the war.

[Lebanese Dude]

This guy explains it better:

 

 

Do you go out and get food for your soldiers? Do you craft every soldier's armor?

 

Are you implying that clearing a rift is going to magically provide a bushel of wheat for your Inquisition? Is your power and influence the only factor here?

 

Are you also implying that your power is somehow reduced when you take on a mission? Why isn't it completely recovered when the mission is completed?

 

Why are you limited to one upgrade every time your influence increases at a specific increment? Why not more? Realistically, growth should be exponential not linear.

 

The resource "Power" is simply a game mechanic, with the total power accrued throughout the game to be a representation of the actual power your Inquisition gains via your actions and decisions.

 

It's simply a resource to spend and you'll have a surplus throughout most of the game. There's nothing daft about it. You are the figurehead so your actions resonate the most. Your actions and decisions give the Inquisition power and influence, especially early on when you and a few others are the only agents the Inquisition has.

This doesn't mean that the entire Inquisition's structure rests on your shoulders. It doesn't.

 

I'm fairly sure that Josephine handles diplomacy, Cullen handles military, and Leliana handles intelligence.

 

What's your job then? Well it is to lead the entire structure (post-Haven) while also serving from the front with an elite band of operatives. You handle the development of that squad. 

 

Isn't that expected from RPGs? 

 

How do you advise (and command post-Haven) the Inquisition as a whole? You do so via the war table of course, a function many scoff at because of its passive nature while ignoring the fact that implementing it in a more active form would take an impossible amount of resources to do so. It serves its purpose pretty well as is.

 

Are you also implying that the player should not be collecting their own materials?

 

To put things into perspective, some people found the automatic potion restocking to "suck". Do you honestly think that giving the Inquisitor and the party free access to all the materials for crafting to be an actually good idea? Where's the player input there? Is this a simulation? Why can't the development of your party's gear and supplies be in your hands as well? Go out and explore and find those super rare items. You can buy the relatively simpler materials anywhere. You're not going to find Dragon Bone at your local market.

 

Your Inquisitor and party use highly specialized gear and supplies that massively differs from what the Inquisition as a whole uses. You are your own entity. Control your own party.

 

Seriously...think before you talk...or quote for that matter.

[Sylvius the Mad]

That was not my perception, to be honest (and I don't think I'm the only one here). After the prolog, you're definitely the Inquisition's main asset and one of its de facto leaders, even if your formal elevation has to wait until Skyhold.

At Haven, I see the Herald as a junior member of the team. The Inquisition's elite team, but still just one of a group.

It makes sense that you close rifts - accompanied by an escort, I might add, that should be more substantial than some of the Inquisition's other main assets - but eliminating camps X, Y, Z, clearing out dungeons, gathering resources?

I don't get the impression that the Inquisition is that big an operation prior to Skyhold. Who else would do it?

Of course, even small as it is, that base of operations at Haven will consume considerable resources. The other people there will be collecting food and equipment constantly just to keep the place running. What you do is on top of that.

[jds1bio]

At Haven, I see the Herald as a junior member of the team. The Inquisition's elite team, but still just one of a group.
I don't get the impression that the Inquisition is that big an operation prior to Skyhold. Who else would do it?

 

The herald is definitely a juinor member of the team at the start.  Some don't even want him/her around, seeing him/her as a necessary evil because of the ability to close rifts.  The herald isn't even expected to handle the major planning of closing the breach, i.e. which of the mages/templars to ask for help, but has to step in because the advisors can't decide amongst themselves.  There's a conflict that concludes the first major part of the game, and even there the herald only plays a supporting role, up to a certain point.  In DAI you definitely need to earn your status as Inquisitor, and even after that people still won't necessarily approve of you.