23 réponses à ce sujet

[sammyz]

So, I'm curious.. I can understand the whole situation with the Chargers dying or you losing the Qun as an ally due to Bull's quest.  However I can't help but wonder why on Earth (Thedas?) you don't use The Blades of Hessarian to save the chargers; assuming you don't, I haven't gotten to that point on a playthrough where I've recruited them, thus I don't know.  I mean they're already there en masse, it would take just as much time for you to get to your position as it would them if you informed them of what you wanted before you went on your way.  Even if it could only be a couple squads I feel adding them to the Chargers for the fight would be enough to at least let the Chargers live AND for them to keep holding the area.

 

Really, you already have a decent sized force there, the Vents sure as hell wouldn't "See the Inquisition coming" if they were silly enough to do something with the Blades already there.  It seems weird to me to not use an obviously skilled force to help the operation.  It'd just take a few words from the Herald of Andraste (quotes maybe?) to get at least a couple squads into action and mobilized to the Charger's hill.  After all, it isn't like you and yours couldn't hold out long enough if they decided to come your way instead of toward the Blades-Charger controlled hill.

 

It just feels forced between a black and white decision.  You put in the extra leg work to get the Blades, why the balls can't you put them to actual use here?  Or can you?  If you can then I suppose this topic is without purpose, huh?  If that is the case then I apologize.  I did look around the nets a bit, I just found no option like that mentioned anywhere.

[berelinde]

Good point, sammyz. I hadn't considered it myself, but it stands to reason that you should be able to deploy a few BoH patrols along the coast regardless of whether or not you want to save the Chargers. I mean, yeah, I understand why Gatt doesn't want to use the main Inquisition forces. They'd be visible from orbit. But the Blades patrol the coast all the time in small groups. Yeah, the Venatori probably wipe up small Blades patrols all the time, too, but all the Chargers really need is just a few extra swords.

 

But yeah, I think they were deliberately trying to prevent you from being able to have an "everybody lives" outcome.

[In Exile]

The Qunari wouldn't let you. The whole thing is set up as a loyalty test for the IB: he has to either abandon the Qun or let the chargers done. It was a bit heavy-handed but the reason everything is contrived is that it's meant to be contrived. 

[sammyz]

The Qunari wouldn't let you. The whole thing is set up as a loyalty test for the IB: he has to either abandon the Qun or let the chargers done. It was a bit heavy-handed but the reason everything is contrived is that it's meant to be contrived. 

 

There is literally no reason they wouldn't let you without them outright saying "we want the Chargers to die."  It would increase the chance of success for the mission, would increase the chance that the Dreadnought would be unharmed, and it would increase the chance that everyone walks away happy.  Not to mention that Bull's Chargers are essentially agents of the Qun anyway, even if they don't know/aren't told it.  Bull does as he's ordered, more or less, that's the whole reason why him, and his Chargers, wanted to sign up with the Inquisition in the first place.

 

The only reason I can think of to not include the Blades would be that the devs wanted it to be yet another are you a "super lovey fluffy" Inquisitor or a "dark gritty pragmatist batman "this is why I work alone"" type Inquisitor choice.  Just because it's meant to be contrived does not mean that it has to be.  If there's an alternate choice, even if it means more legwork on our part, then we should get it.  There's nothing quite like the feeling of averting a terrible decision because of the extra work we decided to do four chapters back, so to speak.

 

Still, I appreciate your feedback and pov on the whole issue.  So thanks for the time.  I still believe it should be a viable option, yet you pose an interesting stance.  It would be even more so if they outright said they wanted the Charges to die.  

[Cha0sEff3ct]

Or like I did for Sutherland's group I jumped god-damned cliffs and mountains to save them. The Charger's weren't that far. The Inquisitor is very resilient as far as falls. Just use a potion if needed. When close enough have a mage cast barrier assuming Dalish is a crappy mage that doesn't have barrier. It's a must and the first choice in the rift skill tree. Geez, Dalish learn how to spend your skill points wisely. They fought Giant spiders, Sylvans, etc. in the past. No excuse to be unable to take out 6 venatori!

But yes the Blades could've helped. They're pretty much useless after you ally with them. I just love going into the camp and having them call me your worship!

[berelinde]

The Qunari wouldn't let you. The whole thing is set up as a loyalty test for the IB: he has to either abandon the Qun or let the chargers done. It was a bit heavy-handed but the reason everything is contrived is that it's meant to be contrived. 

The only problem I have with that is that the Qunari are said to waste nothing. I'm surprised they'd place that big a wager (a dreadnaught and all the qunari on it) on a single wavering spy.

 

Ah well, it's just one quest.

[sammyz]

Good point, sammyz. I hadn't considered it myself, but it stands to reason that you should be able to deploy a few BoH patrols along the coast regardless of whether or not you want to save the Chargers. I mean, yeah, I understand why Gatt doesn't want to use the main Inquisition forces. They'd be visible from orbit. But the Blades patrol the coast all the time in small groups. Yeah, the Venatori probably wipe up small Blades patrols all the time, too, but all the Chargers really need is just a few extra swords.

 

But yeah, I think they were deliberately trying to prevent you from being able to have an "everybody lives" outcome.

 

Yeah, it's true that they probably wipe up the Blades pretty frequently. Yet with a couple extra squads added to the Charger's skill and ability they'd have a much better time of the whole ordeal and it would increase the likelihood of success, imo.

[In Exile]

There is literally no reason they wouldn't let you without them outright saying "we want the Chargers to die." It would increase the chance of success for the mission, would increase the chance that the Dreadnought would be unharmed, and it would increase the chance that everyone walks away happy. Not to mention that Bull's Chargers are essentially agents of the Qun anyway, even if they don't know/aren't told it. Bull does as he's ordered, more or less, that's the whole reason why him, and his Chargers, wanted to sign up with the Inquisition in the first place.

The only reason I can think of to not include the Blades would be that the devs wanted it to be yet another are you a "super lovey fluffy" Inquisitor or a "dark gritty pragmatist batman "this is why I work alone"" type Inquisitor choice. Just because it's meant to be contrived does not mean that it has to be. If there's an alternate choice, even if it means more legwork on our part, then we should get it. There's nothing quite like the feeling of averting a terrible decision because of the extra work we decided to do four chapters back, so to speak.

Again, they literally DO want the Chargers to die. The concern is that the IB is far too distanced from the Qun to be a valuable operative. Everything we hear from him is about doubt. He believes it will be bad for Thedas if his people invade. He thinks Seheron and Par Vollen are horrid and emotionally draining places to be in. He outs himself as a spy from the beginning. The events of Demands of the Qun are a purity test, all designed to have him abandon his personal bonds.

The point isn't the mission. Stopping the Venatori is entirely unrelated to dealing with the IB. That's the actual goal for the Qunari. That's why they're risking their assets. They come up with every possible excuse not to have the Inquisition use its own resources.

So, again, no, it has nothing to do with making the choice contrived for the player.

[In Exile]

The only problem I have with that is that the Qunari are said to waste nothing. I'm surprised they'd place that big a wager (a dreadnaught and all the qunari on it) on a single wavering spy.

Ah well, it's just one quest.

It's not a waste. The Inquisition is the greatest social and political change in Thedas in the last few centuries. The Qunari will want to invade. Having an agent inside the Inquisition is worth far more for the purposes of the invasion than a dreadnought.

But to know they can rely on that agent when they invade they need to see that the IB will pick the Qun over all of his existing personal ties.

They're playing the long game.

[sammyz]

Or like I did for Sutherland's group I jumped god-damned cliffs and mountains to save them. The Charger's weren't that far. The Inquisitor is very resilient as far as falls. Just use a potion if needed. When close enough have a mage cast barrier assuming Dalish is a crappy mage that doesn't have barrier. It's a must and the first choice in the rift skill tree. Geez, Dalish learn how to spend your skill points wisely. They fought Giant spiders, Sylvans, etc. in the past. No excuse to be unable to take out 6 venatori!

But yes the Blades could've helped. They're pretty much useless after you ally with them. I just love going into the camp and having them call me your worship!

 

I probably shouldn't be using "quote" as the "reply" button.  But.. details.  Anyway, exactly!  I mean what kind of mage doesn't have at least basic barrier?  Sure in DA:O it was more of an "energy prison" than a barrier, yet now it's fairly useful.  It literally lets anyone jump off the face of the world and land safely on the other side.. as long as the barrier doesn't expire before they land.  They shouldn't have had as much difficulty with them, but even if the devs wanted a "warm fluffy" choice or a "gritty pragmatist" choice there should have been a middle choice if you went out of your way to recruit the blades instead of slaughter them all.

 

And who doesn't like being called "Your Worship?!"

[sammyz]

It's not a waste. The Inquisition is the greatest social and political change in Thedas in the last few centuries. The Qunari will want to invade. Having an agent inside the Inquisition is worth far more for the purposes of the invasion than a dreadnought.

But to know they can rely on that agent when they invade they need to see that the IB will pick the Qun over all of his existing personal ties.

They're playing the long game.

 

You bring up some really good points.  Sure, it's, technically, a waste.  But it's a sacrifice for the greater good, for the longer game, so to speak.  It's one pawn for a king, to use an overused chess analogy.  Yet they don't say that, that's my problem.  They're very upfront with IB and you.  When it comes to it I can't see them not at least inferring that what you say is true.  Instead ..what's his name again?  The Qun agent?  Anyway.. instead, that guy gives you a clear objective and only says you can't use inquisition forces.  That doesn't leave out the Blades.  There's absolutely zero reason the Blades couldn't be used in that scenario.  Plus IB still having the chargers as his "agents" would only further the ideal out of the spotlight that he's just a mercenary captain, not an agent of the Qun or the like, which could possibly damage relations with nobles and kingdoms that don't already know of IB's true status.

Modifié par sammyz, 20 avril 2015 - 11:20 .

[Gileadan]

But aren't they also sabotaging their own plan at that moment too? Because the Inquisitor sees that IB chooses the Qun over the Chargers, and how trusted will IB be after that?  If anything, IB deciding to kill the Chargers would serve as a warning that he would act in favor of the Qun again if there's ever a conflict with the Qunari, making it less likely that IB will ever gain the full trust of the Inquisition.

 

Of course, technically speaking the Inquisitor is making the decision, so either outcome really means that IB does as the Inquisitor tells him.

[Big I]

The Blades aren't there for the same reason the Inquisition army isn't there, so as not to scare off the Venatori.

[Cha0sEff3ct]

The Qunari wouldn't let you. The whole thing is set up as a loyalty test for the IB: he has to either abandon the Qun or let the chargers done. It was a bit heavy-handed but the reason everything is contrived is that it's meant to be contrived. 

From the looks of it I do feel like the Ben-Hassrath really did set-it up so that Iron Bull had to give up the chargers. I think blocking off the lyrium shipping supply line was minor than what Gatt made it out to be. That dreadnought could've been fodder for the Benn-Hassrath. I truly think they wanted to test Bull's loyalty as he has strayed a bit too far from the Qun with his chargers.

 

I probably shouldn't be using "quote" as the "reply" button.  But.. details.  Anyway, exactly!  I mean what kind of mage doesn't have at least basic barrier?  Sure in DA:O it was more of an "energy prison" than a barrier, yet now it's fairly useful.  It literally lets anyone jump off the face of the world and land safely on the other side.. as long as the barrier doesn't expire before they land.  They shouldn't have had as much difficulty with them, but even if the devs wanted a "warm fluffy" choice or a "gritty pragmatist" choice there should have been a middle choice if you went out of your way to recruit the blades instead of slaughter them all.

 

And who doesn't like being called "Your Worship?!"

 

I forgot that barrier was an energy prison in DA:O. It was basically useless. Sure it made my mage or whoever invincible but they couldn't do sh*t but stand there frozen. I like that you have to weaken the barriers instead. Dalish was right, when she said I'm not a mage. Can't even cast a barrier on top of Krem's guard assuming Krem is tanking.

 

I don't know, about some middle choice. Maybe I'm just cold-hearted but I couldn't careless for the Chargers. Nothing made me want to keep them. Their song wasn't that inspiring neither were their personalities. Sutherland started from a busboy to an inspiration for the inquisition. Always eager to prove himself and the rest of his company too. I love saving them and what my quizzy says "...of course I would come help you. You're MY people" or some thing to that effect. Brings a tear to my eyes.

 

As I mentioned in another thread a while ago Krem and the chargers seem like free loaders... Krem just hopping up and down on his chair and chugging beer...

 

Quizzy: What can the Chargers do for me right now?

Krem: *takes a big gulp of Garbolg's Backcountry Reserve or Sun Blonde Vint-1 or whatever Cabot is selling* I don't know but I'll tell you when I think of something.

Quizzy: I have to go.

Krem: *takes another big gulp* Later, inquisitor.

 

Get off your ass and charge something. "Horns Up" my @ss!

 

I personally like Gatt and interested to see more of him and I love that I can get some war table missions with Tallis even if no cameo appearance!

[sammyz]

The Blades aren't there for the same reason the Inquisition army isn't there, so as not to scare off the Venatori.

 

The thing is.. the blades are always there. They were there before you even allied with them.  They're always patrolling, as someone upthread said.  So they'd be a common sight.  This makes them perfect for this operation because the Vents wouldn't expect them to be helping the Chargers out, or at least wouldn't be concerned with them until they were.

 

Stuff.

 

I didn't like them too much, either. But what I didn't like even more was being given only two choices on how the quest would end - death or violent explosion.  Now while I usually like violent explosions, as the Inquisitor obviously that'd be a bad idea if it stopped an alliance with the Qun.

 

But.. on the same note.. it just seemed obvious to me to use the Blades since they're always there and can mobilize immediately and be where you want them to be after everything is too far for the Vents to really retreat.

 

However, yeah.. Barrier in DA:O was... interesting. Personally I found it amusing and awesome at the same time.  Especially since you could cast it on friend or foe.  I generally used it to trap the toughest mob and just handle the rest while he stood there, unable to move, and watched me slaughter all of his comrades then gather around him and just wait with evil grins for the barrier to drop.

 

At least that's how I pictured it in my head.

 

IIRC it also wiped all threat to that character while they were barriered.  That allowed you to lead mobs away then have the character run or heal up more easily once the barrier popped.  IIRC there was also a talent or something that made it so when it did explode it paralyzed all enemies around it.  So.. that was pretty fun, too. 

 

It had its uses, though they sure weren't the same as the current barrier. XD

[In Exile]

Can y'all stop using "literally" to reinforce your points? kthxbai.

I literally can't stop using "literally" in the sense of "figuratively".

[Dai Grepher]

Short answer: for the same reason you can't use Inquisition troops for reinforcement, the Vints would see them coming.

 

I like the concept of the Qunari setting it all up as a test for The Iron Bull, but there's just a few things that don't work. The Vints were the ones shipping red lyrium from the coast. The Qunari couldn't have set that up. They were responding to a threat. But let's say they turned it into an opportunity to test The Iron Bull. They would still have to put their own loyal Qunari at risk, as well as a dreadnaught. Seems like a waste, and it would be. Also, The Iron Bull is the one who brought the Chargers and split them up as he did. It was all his fault. The Qunari could not have controlled that.

 

But I do think there should have been more options, such as use the Blades as backup anyway, resulting in a failed mission perhaps, or splitting the groups up differently. Or just plain old using archery to help the Chargers pick off a few of the baddies from across the way.

[sammyz]

Short answer: for the same reason you can't use Inquisition troops for reinforcement, the Vints would see them coming.

 

This has been addressed already.  The Blades are /always/ there anyway.  The Vents are still doing operations in the area with them there so they obviously don't care about their presence.  That makes the Blades perfect for use in reinforcing the Chargers because the Blades are already there, doing patrols, etc.  This means the Vents wouldn't really expect them to suddenly join up with a mercenary group.  If they cared about the Blades they'd go elsewhere to do their smuggling, they obviously don't.  So I can't really see that being a viable answer to as to why you can't use them.  Your troops?  Sure.  You'd have to mobilize them and when you march everyone notices.  But the Blades?  Nah.  Just some fanatics that patrol the shores, at least to most people.  So there's still no good reason you can't use them other than "because the dev said."

[Dai Grepher]

But the Blades only go out in small groups. In order to attack in force, all patrols would have to be recalled. In which case the Vints would get suspicious at their sudden disappearance from the usual routes. Also, the Vints may have had scouts watching the Blades camp.

[Dai Grepher]

The thing I don't get is why the Vints would even bother with the Chargers. Why wouldn't they just attack the dreadnaught first and then go after the Chargers?

[sammyz]

But the Blades only go out in small groups. In order to attack in force, all patrols would have to be recalled. In which case the Vints would get suspicious at their sudden disappearance from the usual routes. Also, the Vints may have had scouts watching the Blades camp.

 

 

Who ever said anything about force?  Just a couple of patrols would have made a world of difference.  They simply needed a couple more blades.  I mean the Inuis and three of their best friends take out one, surely six Chargers supported by four to eight Blades could hold the others, you know?  And that wouldn't be nearly enough to arouse suspicion until it was too late.

[sammyz]

The thing I don't get is why the Vints would even bother with the Chargers. Why wouldn't they just attack the dreadnaught first and then go after the Chargers?

 

The problem with attacking the dreadnought is the same reason that ground troops don't directly go after arties in war.  You turn your back even a second and the other troops will be right there shoving their bullets(swords in the case of the Chargers) up your butt.  You have to deal with one threat first before going after the other.