It's also been established in canon that our cycle has no idea how Reaper cores work. That's a key piece of knowledge needed in order to reverse engineer something. The Crucible was left purposefully simple by the Reapers as a trap/test depending on how you want to look at it.
They don't know how Reaper cores work because the only Reaper they had been exposed to previously was Sovereign, and that was in a thousand pieces. The mystery is from lack of study of an intact Reaper core.
How do you know that? Its possible that a few cycles found information about them and tried to prepare for the invasion and failed badly
How do you know a vanguard was left or that there wasn't a planet like Ilos?
If they failed, then they still failed. No ark.
The Reapers' whole plan only works if there's a vanguard to send a signal to the Keepers - which means as long as there's been mass relays, the Citadel and galactic civilisation, there's been a vanguard. And all of those things are the centrepieces of the harvest.
The first few cycles might've been much longer if there were no relays to speed up the advance of galactic civilisation, but that just means whatever races were there in the early days would've been underdeveloped, scattered and completely out of contact with each other.
We don't know if a Reaper can do it passively or not since we haven't had synthetics or robots exposed to a 'dead' Reaper.
What you're talking about is a retcon. A story that is part of a series should not have its foundation based on a retcon.
We've also never seen a synthetic indoctrinated. The virus you mentioned was something designed specifically for the geth by Sovereign and the heretics combined efforts, not a passive mechanism. Though if we're getting technical, Legion was on the derelict Reaper prior to Shepard's arrival. Technically, he was exposed to a dead Reaper, though for a non-specified amount of time.
Call it what you wish, it doesn't upset established character knowledge because all the research would be kept secret for Shepard and the galaxy at large.
It's enough to begin work on a contingency plan, that's for sure.
That only works if the council and other top dogs believe Shepard and her squad.
Had Shepard recorded the comversation, I might believe her and even then it would take some convincing to get someone to believe that leaving the galaxy would be the best course of action.
Since there is no recording of that conversation, I would tell Shepard to bring me something to back up her words
They don't know how Reaper cores work because the only Reaper they had been exposed to previously was Sovereign, and that was in a thousand pieces. The mystery is from lack of study of an intact Reaper core.
So you're telling me that during the Reaper War, which is established as being only a few months long, our cycle can: get a fully-functional Reaper core, fully understand and successfully reverse-engineer it, put that new core in an ark, and fly away from the galaxy before the Reaper War ends? I'm sorry, but that is ridiculous.
So you're telling me that during the Reaper War, which is established as being only a few months long, our cycle can: get a fully-functional Reaper core, fully understand and successfully reverse-engineer it, put that new core in an ark, and fly away from the galaxy before the Reaper War ends? I'm sorry, but that is ridiculous.
Because? Do you have real life reverse engineering experience? Or are you closely associated with the Bioware writer team to have this knowledge?
The Reapers' whole plan only works if there's a vanguard to send a signal to the Keepers - which means as long as there's been mass relays, the Citadel and galactic civilisation, there's been a vanguard. And all of those things are the centrepieces of the harvest.
Still don't know if every cycle had a vanguard. Harbinger could just as easily signaled the keepers every 50 000 years
The first few cycles might've been much longer if there were no relays
They were longer otherwise the relays aren't needed. I would like to know how long the cycles and how many cycles there were before the relays were built
Because? Do you have real life reverse engineering experience? Or are you closely associated with the Bioware writer team to have this knowledge?
Because it is impossible according to the lore. It took us that long to develop Mass Effect drives, and that information was practically spoon fed to us. Yet you're telling me when the information is not there on purpose and left in an easy to understand format, that our cycle can do the same thing in the same amount of time? Remember this is less than a few decades later for humanity, the leaders of this project according to the leak.
That only works if the council and other top dogs believe Shepard and her squad.
Sure, and that's part of the same stupid argument that people have been having in these threads for the past week.
We know from the Citadel DLC that the Council knew Sovereign was a Reaper from ME1, even though they told Shepard otherwise. I think it's quite possible for them to say one thing in public and do something else in secret. That's pretty much the job description for diplomats and politicians.
I think it's reasonable to suggest one or more of the Council races started an ark *in secret*, just in case the Reapers were real and a threat, while denying their existence in public to avoid spreading panic. This also has the benefit of making the Council seem less stupid and ridiculous in ME1 and ME2 for not listening to Shepard.
Given the name of the organisaton ARKCON in ME: N, if there's an ark in the next game, I suspect that this is the route the writers have gone down.
There was something else odd about that concept art too. It was clearly made to make one reminiscent of the Presidium...but it was not a Stanford torus design. The living area was not perpendicular to the axis of rotation, but rather at an angle to it. If no artificial gravity via mass effect fields are involved, then the only way to create artificial gravity via motion in an orientation like that is through both rotation around the central axis and linear acceleration along the central axis...like a ship.I forgot about that concept art. You might be right that the Citadel-like location is the ark, assuming of course that the ark theory pans out.
So you're telling me that during the Reaper War, which is established as being only a few months long, our cycle can: get a fully-functional Reaper core, fully understand and successfully reverse-engineer it, put that new core in an ark, and fly away from the galaxy before the Reaper War ends? I'm sorry, but that is ridiculous.
It's already been done in the series and more than once. Again, see the Thanix weapons & the Crucible utilizing actual Reaper parts. I think you're grasping at straws for anything to shoot the ark down, but this particular argument doesn't work. Humanity's jump from a technological level near our own to an interstellar species after discovering Prothean ruins on Mars would be a much greater leap than the Council species reverse engineering a means to travel 30 light years per day without refueling or drive discharge.
Note: The Ark Theory isn't even my preferred setting, though I do think it has a lot of potential to be interesting. I just find a lot of the arguments being thrown against it weak. There are no lore roadblocks for Bioware sending people to Andromeda with the next game, if they so choose.
Still don't know if every cycle had a vanguard. Harbinger could just as easily signaled the keepers every 50 000 years
He obviously could *not* do that though, otherwise why would they need a vanguard? Their entirely plan relies on a vanguard being physically present in the Milky Way to survey the development of the galaxy and signal the keepers to bring the rest of the Reapers through. Without a vanguard, they'd have no way of knowing how far along the galaxy's inhabitants were or when to start the harvest.
I know the logic of the Reapers' plan is ridiculous once we know about Starkid literally being the Citadel in ME3, but it held up reasonably well in ME1.
We know from the Citadel DLC that the Council knew Sovereign was a Reaper from ME1, even though they told Shepard otherwise. I think it's quite possible for them to say one thing in public and do something else in secret. That's pretty much the job description for diplomats and politicians.
I guess that means the council that replaces the council I had killed in ME1, knew Sovereign was a reaper and they might be planning to build an ark.
It's already been done in the series and more than once. Again, see the Thanix weapons & the Crucible utilizing actual Reaper parts. I think you're grasping at straws for anything to shoot the ark down, but this particular argument doesn't work. Humanity's jump from a technological level near our own to an interstellar species after discovering Prothean ruins on Mars would be a much greater leap than the Council species reverse engineering a means to travel 30 light years per day without refueling or drive discharge.
Note: The Ark Theory isn't even my preferred setting, though I do think it has a lot of potential to be interesting. I just find a lot of the arguments being thrown against it weak. There are no lore roadblocks for Bioware sending people to Andromeda with the next game, if they so choose.
The Thannix cannon is a popgun compared to a Reaper core, and even then it took a while for the Turians to crack. And the Crucible was left purposefully simple, spoon feeding us the information, including what can be used.
I'm not grasping at straws. I'm stating established facts. And no, it is at least an equal if not greater leap since with the former the information was purposefully simplified for us while with the latter none of the people in our cycle, even those millennium more advanced than us, comprehend how a Reaper core does what it does.
I guess that means the council that replaces the council I had killed in ME1, knew Sovereign was a reaper and they might be planning to build an ark.
The archives in the Citadel DLC show that the Council identified the ship that arrived with the geth as a Reaper, which means the file must've been created after the attack on the Citadel. It's being recorded in the past tense, after the event.
So... no matter which Council it was, they all knew about Sovereign.
The archives in the Citadel DLC show that the Council identified the ship that arrived with the geth as a Reaper, which means the file must've been created after the attack on the Citadel. It's being recorded in the past tense, after the event.
He obviously could *not* do that though, otherwise why would they need a vanguard? Their entirely plan relies on a vanguard being physically present in the Milky Way to survey the development of the galaxy and signal the keepers to bring the rest of the Reapers through. Without a vanguard, they'd have no way of knowing how far along the galaxy's inhabitants were or when to start the harvest.
I know the logic of the Reapers' plan is ridiculous once we know about Starkid literally being the Citadel in ME3, but it held up reasonably well in ME1.
The Catalyst isn't the Citadel. The Citadel is the Catalyst's home.
The Catalyst could simply have not been there until ME3 after the Reapers got a hold of it.
He obviously could *not* do that though,
If he's able to control the collectors from darkspace, why can't he send the signal to the keepers?
otherwise why would they need a vanguard? Their entirely plan relies on a vanguard being physically present in the Milky Way to survey the development of the galaxy and signal the keepers to bring the rest of the Reapers through. Without a vanguard, they'd have no way of knowing how far along the galaxy's inhabitants were or when to start the harvest.
Maybe after x number of cycles they decided to leave a vanguard behind to make it easier just like they built the relays to make the cycles more efficient
I know the logic of the Reapers' plan is ridiculous once we know about Starkid literally being the Citadel in ME3, but it held up reasonably well in ME1.
That's because the third game is the best place to start playing a trilogy. The reapers were made stupid so that they can be stopped at the end of the game
While I think a natural wormhole, although totally realistic, would be super contrived and convenient...I do like the idea of an artificial one.It's amusing how there are all these incredibly intimidating and god-tier things believed about the billion-year-old Reapers, yet everyone assumes they can't just travel to Andromeda like our rinky-dink tech apparently can. Why is it safe, and why would we assume it's beyond their grasp?
What if this is their slingshot to Andromeda?
It's amusing how there are all these incredibly intimidating and god-tier things believed about the billion-year-old Reapers, yet everyone assumes they can't just travel to Andromeda like our rinky-dink tech apparently can. Why is it safe, and why would we assume it's beyond their grasp?
You're misunderstanding the difference between intention and capability again, so I'll make it really clear:
The Reapers probably CAN travel to Andromeda. That doesn't mean that they DO.
We have no reason to suspect that they've ever been there. None of the Reapers we've talked to, or the Catalyst, have talked about a mission that extends beyond our own galaxy. Indeed, the Catalyst presents the Crucible and Synthesis - which only effect the MW - as his perfect final solution to the original problems the Reapers were created to solve.
But let's assume for a second that you're right and the Reapers do regularly harvest Andromeda, too.
If their mission is generalised (i.e. it applies to harvesting all life, everywhere) this introduces a number of other problems to the lore of the series - like exactly how far the Reapers regularly travel, how many galaxies they visit, the logistics of harvesting multiple galaxies simultaneously (because eventually it would take more than 50,000 years to reach the furthest ones) and the problem of the Reapers' numbers.
If they harvest Andromeda, why stop at Andromeda? Where do they stop? If they have harvested dozens or hundreds of galaxies, how do they harvest them all in the space of one cycle? If it takes multiple cycles, do they have multiple fleets? Why is the Reaper fleet we face in the Milky Way so small if they have harvested civilisations for a billion years from multiple galaxies?
If you're correct and their mission extends to harvesting all life, the 50,000 years spent in dark space between cycles is an utter waste of time - so, is there another Reaper fleet in Andromeda? In every galaxy? Will they come back to the Milky Way once they notice we've beaten the Reapers?
While I think a natural wormhole, although totally realistic, would be super contrived and convenient...I do like the idea of an artificial one.
One of the main reasons for the relay network was so the galaxies' races would develop along the course that the Reapers prefer: Using mass effect relays and mass effect FTL drives for interstellar travel.
But there are other ways to travel to the stars. A wormhole, presumably, is one of them. Obviously, finding one randomly which would also be useful would be impractical. But if you could create and control them at whim...suddenly you have an alternative to the relay network for super fast interstellar travel.
The question is, what kind of civilization could have done that? I'd argue that they would have to be even more advanced than the Reapers, and that no civilization of the Milky Way could have done it (save for maybe the Leviathans). So if an ark gets to Andromeda via something like a one-way technologically induced wormhole left behind by an ancient and unknown race, I hope they explain it rather than sweeping it under the rug.
That's one reason why this new game should start decades or centuries after the Reaper War. That gives our cycle plenty of time to reverse engineer Reaper technology if they are dead in Destroy or the Reapers help in Control or Synthesis. But that leaves them having to deal with the choices in the Shepard trilogy, making the reason for going to Andromeda pointless.
You're misunderstanding the difference between intention and capability again, so I'll make it really clear:
The Reapers probably CAN travel to Andromeda. That doesn't mean that they DO.
We have no reason to suspect that they've ever been there. None of the Reapers we've talked to, or the Catalyst, have talked about a mission that extends beyond our own galaxy. Indeed, the Catalyst presents the Crucible and Synthesis - which only effect the MW - as his perfect final solution to the original problems the Reapers were created to solve.
But let's assume for a second that you're right and the Reapers do regularly harvest Andromeda, too.
If their mission is generalised (i.e. it applies to harvesting all life, everywhere) this introduces a number of other problems to the lore of the series - like exactly how far the Reapers regularly travel, how many galaxies they visit, the logistics of harvesting multiple galaxies simultaneously (because eventually it would take more than 50,000 years to reach the furthest ones) and the problem of the Reapers' numbers.
If they harvest Andromeda, why stop at Andromeda? Where do they stop? If they have harvested dozens or hundreds of galaxies, how do they harvest them all in the space of one cycle? If it takes multiple cycles, do they have multiple fleets? Why is the Reaper fleet we face in the Milky Way so small if they have harvested civilisations for a billion years from multiple galaxies?
If you're correct and their mission extends to harvesting all life, the 50,000 years spent in dark space between cycles is an utter waste of time - so, is there another Reaper fleet in Andromeda? In every galaxy? Will they come back to the Milky Way once they notice we've beaten the Reapers?
We have more reason to suspect they do than they don't. They have the means, capacity, and desire to do so, so why wouldn't they?
Why would the Catalyst tell us about other galaxies? He has no logical reason to. Perhaps they try to achieve Synthesis in every galaxy.
As for how far their reach, simple: our local galactic group. They are capable of reaching and harvesting the three galaxies and 51 dwarf galaxies in a cycle, especially if they have technology we don't know about like Mass Relays that connect one galaxy to another out in Dark Space. And as for the other galactic groups, even the Reapers are incapable of the travel without disrupting the time frame of the cycle yet. We know from Leviathan that they are continuing to improve themselves, so perhaps one way is trying to achieve that next big step.
We have no idea how large their fleet is, so we can't say if it is small or large relative to their harvesting patterns. Sovereign suggests they have enough to darken the sky of every world, lending credence to them being a lot larger in number than we ever see on screen.
Them spending time between cycles in Dark Space sleeping is only a prediction by Vigil, who admits he is hypothesizing.
The Thannix cannon is a popgun compared to a Reaper core, and even then it took a while for the Turians to crack. And the Crucible was left purposefully simple, spoon feeding us the information, including what can be used.
They don't comprehend how Reaper drive cores work because they've never seen one. Had an Asari or Salarian ship visited Earth prior to the discovery of the Prothean ruins, with humanity only getting glimpses of it in the night sky, they wouldn't have understood how that ship worked either. Like with Reaper drive cores, interstellar travel would seem like magic. That doesn't mean that the technology involved actually is magic however, and thus completely incomprehensible. The lack of understanding would only be stemming from a lack of exposure to and sufficient study of the technology involved.
I'd argue that having some of the galaxy's best and brightest not being able to make heads or tails of what is going on with a recovered Reaper core, being more implausible than an ark ship using technology derived from it.
The Council races don't even need to match the Reapers' speed. They just need a method of avoiding drive discharge and making the trip without refueling. Like with the Thanix, a slightly less efficient copy might do.
I'm not grasping at straws. I'm stating established facts. And no, it is at least an equal if not greater leap since with the former the information was purposefully simplified for us while with the latter none of the people in our cycle, even those millennium more advanced than us, comprehend how a Reaper core does what it does.
What established facts were those? You're arguing that Reaper technology can't be utilized or reverse engineered in ME:Next when both have happened previously in the lore.
And are you seriously going to argue that going from a species trapped in it's own solar system to one capable of traversing the entire Milky Way is less of a technological leap than a species already capable of FTL travel discovering the Reaper's method of avoiding drive discharge?
There you go grasping that straw again.
They don't comprehend how Reaper drive cores work because they've never seen one. Had an Asari or Salarian ship visited Earth prior to the discovery of the Prothean ruins, with humanity only getting glimpses of it in the night sky, they wouldn't have understood how that ship worked either. Like with Reaper drive cores, interstellar travel would seem like magic. That doesn't mean that the technology involved actually is magic however, and thus completely incomprehensible. The lack of understanding would only be stemming from a lack of exposure to and sufficient study of the technology involved.
I'd argue that having some of the galaxy's best and brightest not being able to make heads or tails of what is going on with a recovered Reaper core, being more implausible than an ark ship using technology derived from it.
The Council races don't even need to match the Reapers' speed. They just need a method of avoiding drive discharge and making the trip without refueling. Like with the Thanix, a slightly less efficient copy might do.
If they had years or decades to research it, I would agree. But they don't have years or decades, they have weeks or months to get a hold of a working core, study it until they understand it fully, reverse-engineer it to something they can use, putting it into a ship that has to be retrofitted for intergalactic travel, and leave in a manner of months. No technological advancement in Mass Effect's lore has done that much that fast, and that was with simpler things.
What established facts were those? You're arguing that Reaper technology can't be utilized or reverse engineered in ME:Next when both have happened previously in the lore.
I'm arguing that a Reaper core can't be reverse-engineered and the resulting product being used for intergalactic travel in a manner of months, something that has never happened in the lore.
You can use a Reaper core, sure. But that provides more problems than solutions, like essentially just giving the Reaper a new body or the crew being indoctrinated.
And are you seriously going to argue that going from a species trapped in it's own solar system to one capable of traversing the entire Milky Way is less of a technological leap than a species already capable of FTL travel discovering the Reaper's method of avoiding drive discharge?
Yes I am. Achieving interstellar travel and achieving intergalactic travel are already different scales of technological advancement. Especially when the former was spoon fed to the people while the latter has to be figured out from scratch by themselves and both being done in the same timeframe.
The comparison is quite frankly insulting to the latter scenario. It's like saying someone learning how to build a bike with detailed instructions next to it is an equal technological leap to someone learning how to build a spaceship from scratch. The difference is that big.
You say I'm grasping at straws, but in truth it is you and the others supporting the notion that are grasping at straws so it can work.
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