We are assuming the Ark Project is government ordered but what if it's really a private project? A magnate with lots of money seeing the galaxy will possibly be wiped out by the Reapers starts building the ship in secrecy and recruits volunteers to the journey to Andromeda.
If true I still find the galaxy change a poor and lazy solution to move the franchise forward but it's not a deal breaker for me.
If they had years or decades to research it, I would agree. But they don't have years or decades, they have weeks or months to get a hold of a working core, study it until they understand it fully, reverse-engineer it to something they can use, putting it into a ship that has to be retrofitted for intergalactic travel, and leave in a manner of months. No technological advancement in Mass Effect's lore has done that much that fast, and that was with simpler things.
I'm arguing that a Reaper core can't be reverse-engineered and the resulting product being used for intergalactic travel in a manner of months, something that has never happened in the lore.
Thanix weapons and repurposed Reaper parts for the Crucible occurred within similar time constraints. On what basis is the Reaper core more complex and incomprehensible than these other parts that were copied or salvaged and reused?
If Bioware wanted to have the Council races reverse engineer or repurpose a Reaper core there are no lore roadblocks for doing so. No retconning is necessary as it has already been done in the series, and whether or not it is possible with the core as well is entirely up to the writers.
You can use a Reaper core, sure. But that provides more problems than solutions, like essentially just giving the Reaper a new body or the crew being indoctrinated.
Why was no one indoctrinated with the Thanix or Crucible projects? Both projects went off without a hitch despite using Reaper technology, when it would have been within the Reapers' best interests to prevent both from coming to fruition. If any indoctrination occurred, and given the success of both projects it seems that was not the case, it wasn't sufficient to derail either project.
Why should an ark project be any different?
Yes I am. Achieving interstellar travel and achieving intergalactic travel are already different scales of technological advancement. Especially when the former was spoon fed to the people while the latter has to be figured out from scratch by themselves and both being done in the same timeframe.
The comparison is quite frankly insulting to the latter scenario. It's like saying someone learning how to build a bike with detailed instructions next to it is an equal technological leap to someone learning how to build a spaceship from scratch. The difference is that big.
You say I'm grasping at straws, but in truth it is you and the others supporting the notion that are grasping at straws so it can work.
The only things preventing the Council races from travelling to Andromeda are the need to refuel or discharge drives and the time it would take to complete the journey. The last of those however is no real obstacle when the galaxy might be desperate for any means to ensure the survival of the space faring species. if spending 500+ years in cryosleep (or 230, if they can match a Reaper's speed) is what is necessary to ensure that, I doubt the Council species would hesitate. For the Asari or Krogan the time span isn't even that much of a burden as they can live for over 1000 years even without taking a Javik nap.
As for the need to discharge drives or refuel, while obstacles...they shouldn't be bigger hurdles for the Council species than the one faced by humanity before it had mastered FTL travel. I think declaring the elimination of drive discharge or finding a more effecient power source more of a challenge than FTL travei is arbitrary, not supported by anything in the games at this point, and underestimates, even with the introduction of EEZO and the mass effect, what a monumental achievement creating technology enabling FTL travel would be. If humanity can derive from 50,000 year old Prothean tech buried in Martian sand the ability to leave its solar system behind, it should also be capable of figuring out how the Reapers avoid drive discharge or refueling, provided it is the relevant tech to study.
You are indeed grasping at straws.
You'd be better off arguing why the ark setting would make for a less interesting story than whatever your preference is, than by trying and failing to argue that previously established lore says it absolutely can't be done. Because no such lore exists.
Those who argue agaisnt the ark, imo, assume too much.
You presume something that could happen, will happen. Like indoctrination when REing Reaper tech, the Ark secret getting out, Shepard's need to know about it, previous cycles mastering intergalactic travel. But in reality they are both as likely to happen as not, and since it's a fiction there is no reason for them not to happen if the narrative demands it.
You also presume that if something haven't been done before, or not outright spelled out in a codex to be possible then it's impossible. Lore evolves, better accept it. And Mass Effect is already teeming with Deus Ex Machinas. Would it be such a big deal to introduce another if it leads to a good, unconstrained, fresh story that doesn't have to abide nor retcon the endings?
Thanix weapons and repurposed Reaper parts for the Crucible occurred within similar time constraints. On what basis is the Reaper core more complex and incomprehensible than these other parts that were copied or salvaged and reused?
If Bioware wanted to have the Council races reverse engineer or repurpose a Reaper core there are no lore roadblocks for doing so. No retconning is necessary as it has already been done in the series, and whether or not it is possible with the core as well is entirely up to the writers.
Because again, they understood how those worked. They have no idea how Reaper cores work by the time the Reaper War begins and don't have time to crack it once it does.
Why was no one indoctrinated with the Thanix or Crucible projects? Both projects went off without a hitch despite using Reaper technology, when it would have been within the Reapers' best interests to prevent both from coming to fruition. If any indoctrination occurred, and given the success of both projects it seems that was not the case, it wasn't sufficient to derail either project.
Why should an ark project be any different?
We don't know one way or the other about indoctrination during the development Thanix cannon, and for the Crucible the War Asset says they were extremely cautious about it. As for a Reaper core, look no further than the Derelict Reaper. That Reaper was clinically brain-dead, the only thing functioning was its core. And it indoctrinated every Cerberus scientist and engineer there.
The only things preventing the Council races from travelling to Andromeda are the need to refuel or discharge drives and the time it would take to complete the journey. The last of those however is no real obstacle when the galaxy might be desperate for any means to ensure the survival of the space faring species. if spending 500+ years in cryosleep (or 230, if they can match a Reaper's speed) is what is necessary to ensure that, I doubt the Council species would hesitate. For the Asari or Krogan the time span isn't even that much of a burden as they can live for over 1000 years even without taking a Javik nap.
As for the need to discharge drives or refuel, while obstacles...they shouldn't be bigger hurdles for the Council species than the one faced by humanity before it had mastered FTL travel. I think declaring the elimination of drive discharge or finding a more effecient power source more of a challenge than FTL travei is arbitrary, not supported by anything in the games at this point, and underestimates, even with the introduction of EEZO and the mass effect, what a monumental achievement creating technology enabling FTL travel would be. If humanity can derive from 50,000 year old Prothean tech buried in Martian sand the ability to leave its solar system behind, it should also be capable of figuring out how the Reapers avoid drive discharge or refueling, provided it is the relevant tech to study.
They also need time to study. And to revers-engineer. And to build. And to install. And to test. And that's just the Eezo core.
They do not have the time to do that. By the time they finish half those steps, the war is over.
You are indeed grasping at straws.
You'd be better off arguing why the ark setting would make for a less interesting story than whatever your preference is, than by trying and failing to argue that previously established lore says it absolutely can't be done. Because no such lore exists.
And you are ignoring facts that the developers themselves had put in place by the lore so it works.
It'd be the same result, since clearly you and the people who support Ark Theory are just putting your fingers in your ears and not listening whenever someone presents the fact that it is not possible given the various restraints in the plot and lore.
Those who argue agaisnt the ark, imo, assume too much.
You presume something that could happen, will happen. Like indoctrination when REing Reaper tech, the Ark secret getting out, Shepard's need to know about it, previous cycles mastering intergalactic travel. But in reality they are both as likely to happen as not, and since it's a fiction there is no reason for them not to happen if the narrative demands it.
You also presume that if something haven't been done before, or not outright spelled out in a codex to be possible then it's impossible. Lore evolves, better accept it. And Mass Effect is already teeming with Deus Ex Machinas. Would it be such a big deal to introduce another if it leads to a good, unconstrained, fresh story that doesn't have to abide nor retcon the endings?
I'd say those who support it are assuming more than those who don't. Supporters are saying things that have it go against plot, lore, etc "because reasons" that have no backing to them whatsoever other than it supports their headcanon and fantasies about the Ark Theory.
And yes, it would be a big deal. Answering contrivances with more contrivances is a terrible solution.
I'd say those who support it are assuming more than those who don't. Supporters are saying things that have it go against plot, lore, etc "because reasons" that have no backing to them whatsoever other than it supports their headcanon and fantasies about the Ark Theory.
All your reasoning so far can be simplified down to: "Because I say so"...
All your reasoning so far can be simplified down to: "Because I say so"...
No, it can be simplified down to "Because the lore says so".
No, it can be simplified down to "Because the lore says so".
According to the lore Reapers have the capability to travel to the Andromeda. Accodring to the lore the current cycle is capable to reverse engineer Reaper tech.
Whether they can RE the drive core or not, and if they can then how fast is just your opinion. It's plausible. So if Bioware decides they can do it, it's well within the lore. So it won't be retcon or a reboot nor will it counts as throwing the trilogy out of the window.
According to the lore Reapers have the capability to travel to the Andromeda. Accodring to the lore the current cycle is capable to reverse engineer Reaper tech.
Whether they can RE the drive core or not, and if they can then how fast is just your opinion. It's plausible. So if Bioware decides they can do it, it's well within the lore. So it won't be retcon or a reboot nor will it counts as throwing the trilogy out of the window.
According to the lore, the current cycle has no idea how a Reaper core works.
According to the lore, they don't have access to a functional core until well into the Reaper War.
According to lore, the Reaper War lasts only a few months.
According to common sense backed by observing the lore, it is impossible.
And yes, if they suddenly do it like that it will be those three things. The only way it won't is if either it takes place after the Reaper War, which most likely won't happen, or it is an accident like a wormhole.
Why was no one indoctrinated with the Thanix or Crucible projects? Both projects went off without a hitch despite using Reaper technology, when it would have been within the Reapers' best interests to prevent both from coming to fruition. If any indoctrination occurred, and given the success of both projects it seems that was not the case, it wasn't sufficient to derail either project.
Why should an ark project be any different?
I doubt there was enough time for anyone to get indoctrinated when working on the crucible, since the reaper heart/brain was added late in the game and a short time later the crucible is heading to Earth
What is possible is for someone who is already indoctrinated board the ship/ark/whatever to another galaxy. This character could be a volunteer to go on the ark or maybe someone who has access to the ship let that character onboard not knowing he/she is indoctrinated. That would be interesting to see what would happen with that.
Because again, they understood how those worked. They have no idea how Reaper cores work by the time the Reaper War begins and don't have time to crack it once it does.
You keep ignoring that they don't know how Reaper cores work because they've never seen one. Sovereign was obliterated. It is a mystery because they don't know what is going on inside a Reaper.
They didn't understand how the technology behind Thanix weapons worked either until sufficient tech was recovered from Sovereign's debris. There is no magic involved with the Reapers. The mystery arises from a lack of knowledge and technological know how, not a lack of some mystical ability or supernatural power.
An intact Reaper core could change that just as recovered weapons technologically filled in the gaps of what was previously unknown.
We don't know one way or the other about indoctrination during the development Thanix cannon, and for the Crucible the War Asset says they were extremely cautious about it. As for a Reaper core, look no further than the Derelict Reaper. That Reaper was clinically brain-dead, the only thing functioning was its core. And it indoctrinated every Cerberus scientist and engineer there.
We know that both the Thanix and Crucible projects succeeded despite the indoctrination risk posed by Reaper technology. Declaring that the indoctrination risk automatically dooms an ark project using reverse engineered Reaper tech, seems awfully arbitrary. What makes Reaper cores any more capable of indoctrination than Sovereign's debris or the salvaged tech referred to as the brain/heart?
They also need time to study. And to revers-engineer. And to build. And to install. And to test. And that's just the Eezo core.
They do not have the time to do that. By the time they finish half those steps, the war is over.
All of which was also needed for the Crucible. Like your assertion that the indoctrination risk dooms the ark project, despite it not dooming previous projects that utilized it, your claim that a Reaper core couldn't be studied and reverse engineered or repurposed on time is arbitrary. And who is to say that people haven't been studying bits of Sovereign's core for three years prior to obtaining any intact tech?
Whether or not it could be accomplished on time is entirely up the writers. We are talking about fictional technology that the gets only the briefest mention in the lore. You are placing limits on the writers that just aren't there in previous material.
And you are ignoring facts that the developers themselves had put in place by the lore so it works.
It'd be the same result, since clearly you and the people who support Ark Theory are just putting your fingers in your ears and not listening whenever someone presents the fact that it is not possible given the various restraints in the plot and lore.
Where is this lore that says it absolutely can't be done? I've yet to see it. You're confusing your assumptions for facts.
According to the lore, the current cycle has no idea how a Reaper core works.
That's the whole idea behind reverse engineering...
According to the lore, they don't have access to a functional core until well into the Reaper War.
Nope. The lore doesn't state the fate of each and every piece Sovereign left behind.
According to lore, the Reaper War lasts only a few months.
So? Like I said it's not your place to decide how long REing takes. Nor is it a fact that they started construction at the start of the reaper war.
According to common sense backed by observing the lore, it is impossible.
Yet again presenting your opinion as fact.
/thread
No, it can be simplified down to "Because the lore says so".
According to the lore, the current cycle has no idea how a Reaper core works.
According to the lore, they don't have access to a functional core until well into the Reaper War.
According to lore, the Reaper War lasts only a few months.
According to common sense backed by observing the lore, it is impossible.
I find the notion that unlocking the mysteries of Reaper drive cores from recently recovered salvage as being more implausible than mastering FTL technology based on 50,000 year old ruins...baffling.
Those who argue agaisnt the ark, imo, assume too much.
You presume something that could happen, will happen. Like indoctrination when REing Reaper tech, the Ark secret getting out, Shepard's need to know about it, previous cycles mastering intergalactic travel. But in reality they are both as likely to happen as not, and since it's a fiction there is no reason for them not to happen if the narrative demands it.
You also presume that if something haven't been done before, or not outright spelled out in a codex to be possible then it's impossible. Lore evolves, better accept it. And Mass Effect is already teeming with Deus Ex Machinas. Would it be such a big deal to introduce another if it leads to a good, unconstrained, fresh story that doesn't have to abide nor retcon the endings?
I like the idea of an Ark, but any good story has a good beginning, if you hand-wave it people will notice immediately
I find the notion that unlocking the mysteries of Reaper drive cores from recently recovered salvage as being more implausible than mastering FTL technology based on 50,000 year old ruins...baffling.
I like the idea of an Ark, but any good story has a good beginning, if you hand-wave it people will notice immediately
Lazarus Project.
Mass Effect 2.
Game of the Year.
Why? Reaper tech brainwashes those in its proximity and doesn't come with an instruction manual, and would need to be perfected enough (in three years) for several hundred years of flight.
Not necessarily, Bryson had bits of Sovereign in his lab to no ill effect, and there are ways to study it without being exposed to indoctrination. The Turians were able to reproduce the Thanix cannon in a shorter period, which might not have been as powerful as powerful as the Reapers themselves, but they don't need it to be as effective as the Reapers. They just need to understand the power source and whatever mechanism they use to avoid the drive discharge issue.
Lazarus Project.
Mass Effect 2.
Game of the Year.
Mass Effect 2 didn't hand wave it away. Throughout the game people showed a variety of reactions to Shepard no longer being dead.
I doubt the leaked game will be filled with variations of "How did we leave the Milky Way?" being asked by everyone if Ark Hypothesis is true.
Why? Reaper tech brainwashes those in its proximity and doesn't come with an instruction manual, and would need to be perfected enough (in three years) for several hundred years of flight.
No human or alien need come into direct contact with Reaper tech as robotics are always an option. Even if that isn't the route the Turians went, they did find a means of reverse engineering Reaper technology without the project being foiled by Reaper indoctrination. The means is already there...whatever that means is. Shepard even uses some reverse engineered Reaper technology in Mass Effect 3, though this comes in the form of stat bonuses. He obtains this (optional) by using the Shadow Broker intel terminal to deploy remote drones to study the remains of a Reaper destroyer. So using robots to study Reaper tech has some precedent in the lore.
Humanity also obtains from 50,000 year old Prothean ruins on Mars, which should be in sorry state considering their age, the means to achieve FTL travel. Within two years of that find humanity is interstellar and discovers Terra Nova, and construction of Arcturus station begins three years later. I think that sounds a lot more implausible than unlocking the secrets of a recently disabled Reaper that hasn't been exposed to 50,000 years of Martian weather. The jump to FTL also seems a much greater technological leap.
Lazarus Project.
Mass Effect 2.
Game of the Year.
Technically dead organ reanimation is real, the only thing unreasonable about Lazarus was reviving Shepard's brain, which could be handwaived by "future technology". An ark project is monumentally bigger, I don't doubt they could justify it existing - they should just show it and not completely handwaive it - it would be more impactful if they showed it anyways.
Mass Effect 2 didn't hand wave it away. Throughout the game people showed a variety of reactions to Shepard no longer being dead.
I doubt the leaked game will be filled with variations of "How did we leave the Milky Way?" being asked by everyone if Ark Hypothesis is true.
The Lazarus project itself is a handwave, utilizing never explained technology to bring back the dead for... shock value?
An Ark is at least explainable, despite your attempts to claim otherwise. And it could have people reflecting on leaving the Milky Way just as people react to Shepard supposedly being dead..
Technically dead organ reanimation is real, the only thing unreasonable about Lazarus was reviving Shepard's brain, which could be handwaived by "future technology". An ark project is monumentally bigger, I don't doubt they could justify it existing - they should just show it and not completely handwaive it - it would be more impactful if they showed it anyways.
Well, the other iffy part was how enough of Shepard's body could possibly be intact after experiencing reentry and smashing into a planet from orbit.
The Lazarus project itself is a handwave, utilizing never explained technology to bring back the dead for... shock value?
An Ark is at least explainable, despite your attempts to claim otherwise. And it could have people reflecting on leaving the Milky Way just as people react to Shepard supposedly being dead..
Also Lazarus Project was totally not necessary, the Ark is very much so.
Also Lazarus Project was totally not necessary, the Ark is very much so.
No, it's not.
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